Qi Gong, lots of people are using it to deceive

[Lao Tzu]

In China, the phenominon is common.

I beleive it comes up all over the world.

So, be aware of that!

[Mokona]

k, thanks

[lifeforce]

OK, thanks for the heads up.

I'll keep a lookout for those nasty,deceitful qigong practitioners

[Taomeow]

Lao Tzu, since you are new here, please let me offer you a bit of heads-up as to what this forum is for. This is where we discuss taoist arts, sciences and practices and also various subjects of interest to taoist practitioners, dabblers, and sympathizers. Opinions substantiated by clearly pointing out their sources (persons or groups, studies courses or books or videos, etc.), or else elaborating on one's own experience (practice, outcomes, teachers, encounters, observation of events and/or participation in them, etc.), or else coming at the end of one's own train of thoughts (musings, insights, tackling philosophical problems, mindful focusing on the personal or on the universal in order to assess a phenomenon under scrutiny, inspiration, emotional involvement with the subject or its detached clinical dissection, etc. etc. etc.) are most welcome. Opinions that are not, not. Just making empty declarations is, um, boring. I believe your goal in posting is the opposite of boring your readers, right? -- you are in fact trying to offer original, striking ideas, right?.. Well, I'm sure you are fully capable of doing this, if you take into consideration what I have just pointed out to you. Make your opinions worth our while and your effort in expressing them will not be wasted.

[Lao Tzu]

Lao Tzu, since you are new here, please let me offer you a bit of heads-up as to what this forum is for. This is where we discuss taoist arts, sciences and practices and also various subjects of interest to taoist practitioners, dabblers, and sympathizers. Opinions substantiated by clearly pointing out their sources (persons or groups, studies courses or books or videos, etc.), or else elaborating on one's own experience (practice, outcomes, teachers, encounters, observation of events and/or participation in them, etc.), or else coming at the end of one's own train of thoughts (musings, insights, tackling philosophical problems, mindful focusing on the personal or on the universal in order to assess a phenomenon under scrutiny, inspiration, emotional involvement with the subject or its detached clinical dissection, etc. etc. etc.) are most welcome. Opinions that are not, not. Just making empty declarations is, um, boring. I believe your goal in posting is the opposite of boring your readers, right? -- you are in fact trying to offer original, striking ideas, right?.. Well, I'm sure you are fully capable of doing this, if you take into consideration what I have just pointed out to you. Make your opinions worth our while and your effort in expressing them will not be wasted.

Thank you for your suggestion.

 

It is not easy to find the proof, so I just put an idea here. I will try to give the proof when I have more time.

[dawei]

My chinese wife candidly states she does not 'trust Qigong'... which makes for an interesting relationship

 

There are historical reasons but far fewer personal reasons. Despite that, I have tested her Qi sensitivity and found that she is incredibly sensitive to Qi and 'open' in ways that I am not. That I can affect her Qi, she does not deny. That Qi is everywhere and in everything she does not deny... so what exactly does she not trust or deny?

 

That Qigong became a proving ground for the Qi naive to be exploited. This is a valid issue and may be what LZ would like to suggest for the thread.

 

I will relate this story, although I don't want this to be interpreted as a bash; it's just a story.

 

When Fulan Gong became popular in China it was welcomed by the government and then later banned due to the ability to assembly in mass and maybe the supposed threat it *could* pose when a single man (art) can lead a million. One of my wife's 'aunt' was strongly into the movement and my wife resisted saying she wanted to read the information for herself. After reading it, she decided that the leader(s) were asking people to simply 'believe' and do the practices; that they said there was no need for proof since they would experience the proof; and the later claims of immortality would certainly require stepping forward in this mindset.

 

This was the issue she had; someone telling her to not think for herself but to accept the claims with later proof to come. This was not the way to reach a more intellectual person. It does not mean that people require proof nor that they require a genuine sage or immortal; but simply that IF one is going to make claims then there should be more than a book to show for it.

[Lao Tzu]

My chinese wife candidly states she does not 'trust Qigong'... which makes for an interesting relationship

 

There are historical reasons but far fewer personal reasons. Despite that, I have tested her Qi sensitivity and found that she is incredibly sensitive to Qi and 'open' in ways that I am not. That I can affect her Qi, she does not deny. That Qi is everywhere and in everything she does not deny... so what exactly does she not trust or deny?

 

That Qigong became a proving ground for the Qi naive to be exploited. This is a valid issue and may be what LZ would like to suggest for the thread.

 

I will relate this story, although I don't want this to be interpreted as a bash; it's just a story.

 

When Fulan Gong became popular in China it was welcomed by the government and then later banned due to the ability to assembly in mass and maybe the supposed threat it *could* pose when a single man (art) can lead a million. One of my wife's 'aunt' was strongly into the movement and my wife resisted saying she wanted to read the information for herself. After reading it, she decided that the leader(s) were asking people to simply 'believe' and do the practices; that they said there was no need for proof since they would experience the proof; and the later claims of immortality would certainly require stepping forward in this mindset.

 

This was the issue she had; someone telling her to not think for herself but to accept the claims with later proof to come. This was not the way to reach a more intellectual person. It does not mean that people require proof nor that they require a genuine sage or immortal; but simply that IF one is going to make claims then there should be more than a book to show for it.

Qigong, no doubt, exists and is beneficial to people if performed well.

Qigong masters, you must be cautious about them. Most of the time, distrusting a master would be right.

[Protector]

Why most of the time?

[Lao Tzu]

Why most of the time?

Because there is still a few real Qigong teachers, I believe.

[Protector]

I think there is a more significant number of them then "a few"

[Birch]

Ok, does the OP mean people are using qi to deceive? That people are being deceived about what qi is? What about going to church, if one is a churchgoer? Or a large political rally or a rock concert or to the doctor's office, or to the acupuncturist? Are we talking about charlatans and the people that get taken in?

[Thunder_Gooch]

Surprisingly I agree with Lao Tzu on this point. I would say 99.999% of all teachings on the spiritual market are just made up hog wash. Most people who claim to have developed abilities are frauds, and bad magicians.

 

Not all of it is bs, not all teachers are frauds though, just most.

[Lao Tzu]

Ok, does the OP mean people are using qi to deceive? That people are being deceived about what qi is? What about going to church, if one is a churchgoer? Or a large political rally or a rock concert or to the doctor's office, or to the acupuncturist? Are we talking about charlatans and the people that get taken in?

I am just talking about Qigong cheaters, charlatans and the people that get taken in.

[Lao Tzu]

Surprisingly I agree with Lao Tzu on this point. I would say 99.999% of all teachings on the spiritual market are just made up hog wash. Most people who claim to have developed abilities are frauds, and bad magicians.

 

Not all of it is bs, not all teachers are frauds though, just most.

lol, you are more extreme than me!

[Birch]

I am just talking about Qigong cheaters, charlatans and the people that get taken in.

 

Do you have an idea for how to tell the difference between a charlatan and a non-charlatan?

[Lao Tzu]

Do you have an idea for how to tell the difference between a charlatan and a non-charlatan?

Yes, I think I have.

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

There is an old Chinese saying, along the lines of;

 

Believe those who say they are seeking the truth

Disbelieve those who say they've found it.

 

Sure, there are many masters out there, and lets face it, anyone can all themselves a master. I've met people who claimed much, but knew little, and people who knew little, but actually had great wisdom.

 

When I teach healing, and sometimes when I teach Chi Gung, I occasionally meet people with enormous wisdom and understanding, from a very natural, intuitive perspective. Often, too much learning and too much intellectualising blocks the flow of wisdom.

 

What am I saying ? Most people have something of value to teach.

 

I've been practicing various forms of internal martial arts and Chi Gung for almost 18 years. I'm just scratching the surface. I know more than many, I know less than far more. I can tell you things you don't know, I can teach you things you hadn't thought of, but you can do the same for me.

 

If you use your brain, don't part with vast sums of money and don't imagine there is anyone who has all the answers, you won't go too far wrong.

 

Abdicate all your critical judgement and treat someone like a god, and you're asking for trouble !

[ChiDragon]

Yes, well said. I have another proverb:

天外有天／There is always a heaven above another heaven.

人外有人/ There is always another person that is better than you.

[Gerard]

Because there is still a few real Qigong teachers, I believe.

 

There are a lot. You aren't looking good enough.

 

Here are two of my favourite teachers:

 

 

Child

 

 

 

 

My current tree teacher. Under his guidance I will reach nirvana too.

 

 

 

 

Mahabodhi tree

 

 

So you see, there are good teachers everywhere, you just need to look better:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5kBqrHphjo

[Lao Tzu]

There are a lot. You aren't looking good enough.

 

Here are two of my favourite teachers:

 

 

Child

 

 

 

 

My current tree teacher. Under his guidance I will reach nirvana too.

 

 

 

 

Mahabodhi tree

 

 

So you see, there are good teachers everywhere, you just need to look better:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5kBqrHphjo

Hehe, the teachers I mentioned are within human beings.

[Gerard]

Hehe, the teachers I mentioned are within human beings.

 

OK. I see. Two examples I personally know of:

 

 

He Jinghan (Taipei)

 

http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/6856169-1484587790.html

 

 

Wang Tong (Beijing). He's being very laid back in the demo, so don't copy on that one, lol.

 

 

They both teach high level Qigong, not mumbo jumbo.

 

 

There are many others out there: Chen Xiaowang, Luo Dexiu, Serge Augier...

[Lao Tzu]

OK. I see. Two examples I personally know of:

He Jinghan (Taipei)

http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/6856169-1484587790.html

Wang Tong (Beijing). He's being very laid back in the demo, so don't copy on that one, lol.

They both teach high level Qigong, not mumbo jumbo.

There are many others out there: Chen Xiaowang, Luo Dexiu, Serge Augier...

The videos you gave me here stated they are more like Kongfu masters, not Qigong masters.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Lao Tzu

[Lao Tzu]

I have not seen even one Qigong teacher who is mentioned here be a good teacher.

[Astral_Anima]

The hardest part is finding one who keeps things objective. Why do you practice qigong? What do you hope to do one day? Find the people who have attained the results you seek, not the ones full of empty promises and high prices. Unless they can demonstrate the ability they proclaim to teach then they cannot be trusted.

 

Some people claim to have objective ability. John Chang, Jiang Feng and Sifu Hata all claim to be able to produce an energy which can affect ANYONE and anyone can feel (thus making it objective) whereas most others cannot objectively effect anyone or claim you have to be "sensitive" enough to be effected by it or have to "believe" in it. The beautiful thing about objectivity is that it doesn't require belief to prove it's existence. Regardless of whether I believe in gravity or not, it's a reality and law in this universe. Energy is the same imo, and thus if someone has a true mastery of it then belief shouldn't be an issue. I don't rule out the argument of "you're not sensitive enough" or "tuned in" but depending on the goal of that form of development, is that really something worth studying in? If it's for healing or protection I would say "NO".

 

But yeah I think alot of us are after "the goods" so to speak, the real powerful stuff, and we get taken into these "health and exercise" qigong forms thinking, "oh every chinese dude over 40 is secretly a super duper qigong MASTA and he's just testing to see who's really ready for his REAL stuff and everything he says is some kind of cryptic methaphor to teach super secrets". So now all a self proclaimed master has to do is speak really cryptically, be vague and mysterious and they're immediately a MASTER, because anyone who has ANY ability at all isn't allowed to show them because they would be breaking some kind of karmic law. But hey...

 

In the jungle, we gotta rumble with the weak

aint nuthing sweet we gotta eat

 

-Astral

[Gerard]

I have not seen even one Qigong teacher who is mentioned here be a good teacher.

 

I think you need to stop your negative attitude, get out and experience real life teachings.

 

I wish you the very best of luck.