Qi Gong, lots of people are using it to deceive

[Thunder_Gooch]

I thought he was the real Lao Tzu.

 

I'm really disappointed now !

 

I'd be interested in seeing if his ip address comes from a proxy service or from Australia.

[Wells]

I'd be interested in seeing if his ip address comes from a proxy service or from Australia.

All evil comes from Mordor..uhm, Australia!

[dawei]

Do you believe the video is true? If you do, how can you be so sure it is true?

Actually, that is not the important question. The question is whether you believe Qigong can effect such cures?

 

If yes, then whether the video is 'true' or not is immaterial.

 

If no, then the entire topic is immaterial.

[Lao Tzu]

Actually, that is not the important question. The question is whether you believe Qigong can effect such cures?

If yes, then whether the video is 'true' or not is immaterial.

If no, then the entire topic is immaterial.

In theory, Qigong can cure diseases, but not working like this way.

For someone here, it is believable, but how can someone trust it so much? Not because of such videos or stories? I think one reason is it seems so fantastic, that is attactive and exciting if it is true. So... it is prefered to be trusted true.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Lao Tzu

[konchog uma]

[dawei]

In theory, Qigong can cure diseases, but not working like this way.

I don't understand why Qigong curing disease is limited to your understanding of theory?

 

If you say it can't work this way then all Medical Qigong throughout history has not been able to do it this way? Do all masters need to seek your approval of theory for something to work? You've made it out this way.

[Birch]

I think if things like qi gong work then that puts a real strain on many existing concepts I hold about reality. I'm not always happy when that happens. Sometimes I am though and it's just wonderful to see people getting relief and healing and such from it. Amazing. I agree it's annoying when people get taken in by things. I think that happens to me several times a day (just got back from the store where I had real trouble figuring out what was in stuff i was buying, even with the "organic" label on). Still, in other cases I'll allow myself to be taken in. Can't watch a movie and enjoy it if not, I don't think. So the point would be to find ways of knowing when you're taking yourself in and when other people are attempting it.

[Lao Tzu]

I don't understand why Qigong curing disease is limited to your understanding of theory?

 

If you say it can't work this way then all Medical Qigong throughout history has not been able to do it this way? Do all masters need to seek your approval of theory for something to work? You've made it out this way.

Dawei, the thing is there is never an authoritative proof for such medical qigong.

So what is do you think the reason for this?

[Birch]

Can I throw in 2cts about "authoritative proof"?

 

Those 2 are different things. I think? I suppose in some cases they agree and in others they don't. I think there might be a delay between something being proven and its adoption as "being the case".

[dawei]

Dawei, the thing is there is never an authoritative proof for such medical qigong.

I understand that is your feeling and thought. You don't seem to have any interest in it and probably don't hang among people involved in such energy work. You seem to argue about a topic you know nothing about nor have any practical or clinical experience in. So I am not sure why we continue.

Edited January 7, 2012 by dawei

[Lao Tzu]

I understand that is your feeling and thought. You don't seem to have any interest in it and probably don't hang among people involved in such energy work. You seem to argue about a topic you know nothing about nor have any practical or clinical experience in. So I am not sure why we continue.

You mean you have some experience in medical qigong? Can you share that with me, please?

I do have qigong practical experiences and huge clinical experiences.

[dawei]

You mean you have some experience in medical qigong? Can you share that with me, please?

I do have qigong practical experiences and huge clinical experiences.

IMO, there is a world of difference between Qigong and Medical Qigong. And TCM clinical and Medical Qigong Clinical.

 

You can claim 'practice' and you can claim 'clinical', but if they are not Medical Qigong based then I don't know how you can judge its effectiveness or ability. Again, I think there is no reason to continue this. I think the deception lies in making such judgments when there is no experience.

[thelerner]

This site has some solid articles on medical Qigong.

 

http://www.medicalqigong.org/resources.htm

 

Personally having gone to one of Ya Mu's seminars and seen some of his techniques first hand. I think there is validity to Medical Qigong. I've also seen Dirk Oeilgardht work do healing energy work and it was remarkable. There are undoubtedly Charlatans, but there are also people and lineages with healing abilities.

[Jetsun]

There is quite a lot of published evidence for medical Qigong, search Pubmed website and there is a fair bit of evidence and that doesn't even include much of the evidence published in China.

[Lao Tzu]

There is quite a lot of published evidence for medical Qigong, search Pubmed website and there is a fair bit of evidence and that doesn't even include much of the evidence published in China.

Did you find even ONE article on Pubmed saying that Qigong can cure cancer?

[Jetsun]

Did you find even ONE article on Pubmed saying that Qigong can cure cancer?

 

I will be able to search properly later when i can get onto my computer but I did see one test involving Qi on breast cancer cells, I will have to get back to you but if you search Pubmed for "qigong cancer" you get about 100 replies, there is certainly evidence it aids quality of life for cancer patients.

[Lao Tzu]

I will be able to search properly later when i can get onto my computer but I did see one test involving Qi on breast cancer cells, I will have to get back to you but if you search Pubmed for "qigong cancer" you get about 100 replies, there is certainly evidence it aids quality of life for cancer patients.

Yes, probably it can improve quality of life, with qigong exercises but not "sending of Qi"

But, when I ask you the question, I mean "cure the cancer, make the tumor disapear" like the video showing.

If sending of Qi can make a tumor disapear, there is supposed to be lots of cases which can be seen in Pubmed.

[dawei]

Yes, probably it can improve quality of life, with qigong exercises but not "sending of Qi"

But, when I ask you the question, I mean "cure the cancer, make the tumor disapear" like the video showing.

If sending of Qi can make a tumor disapear, there is supposed to be lots of cases which can be seen in Pubmed.

You have a dangerous way of lumping everything into one basket as part of your pre-conceived ideas concerning Qi emission and Qi healing.

 

Just because someone can do Qi emission does not mean they can specifically cure cancer. Just as we don't assume that a person who calls himself a 'doctor' is able to do open heart surgery. You have to know his specialty, right? So let's at least apply some logic to this. If you want to investigate Qi and cancer, you need to do some homework, not just sit here and type nonsense. We are not here to provide scientific validation to satisfy your inexposure and inexperience with Qi healing.

 

I gave you the lineage and links that focuses and trains on oncology. It started in China and has been taught in the US for several years. You need to do some research yourself on it. Qi and cancer is not only achieved through emission... there is self-healing for cancer using Qigong.

 

Since I am so certain your going to run off and do some research, look these up too:

1. Ping Shuai Gong ... Exercise developed by Qigong Master Li Feng Shan. I'll get you started:

http://www.atanone.net/ping-shuai-gong-a-simple-but-powerful-qigong/

 

2. Chi-Lel ... Founded by Grandmaster Pang Ming, M.D. Again, I can get you started.

http://www.chilel.com/

 

This is the 1996 book which documents the [then] Qigong hospital in china and their exercises for illness.

Edited January 8, 2012 by dawei

[Jetsun]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22160803

External Qi of Yan Xin Qigong induces cell death and gene expression alterations promoting apoptosis and inhibiting proliferation, migration and glucose metabolism in small-cell lung cancer cells.

 

"These findings suggest that YXQ-EQ may exert anticancer effect through modulating gene expression in a way that facilitates cancer cell apoptosis while represses proliferation, metastasis, and glucose metabolism."

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20110687

External Qi of Yan Xin Qigong Induces apoptosis and inhibits migration and invasion of estrogen-independent breast cancer cells through suppression of Akt/NF-kB signaling.

 

"We show that YXQ-EQ treatment caused a time-dependent reduction in viability, blocked clonogenic growth and induced apoptosis in estrogen-independent breast cancer MDA-MB-231 cells. Furthermore, YXQ-EQ treatment blocked migration and invasion of MDA-MB-231 cells"

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12470443

A preliminary study of the effect of external qigong on lymphoma growth in mice

 

"These preliminary results, while still inconclusive, suggest that qigong treatment from one particular qigong practitioner might influence the growth of lymphoma cells negatively. Further studies with different practitioners, more repeated trials, and/or different tumor models are needed to further investigate the effects of external qigong on tumor growth in mice."

[Lao Tzu]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22160803

External Qi of Yan Xin Qigong induces cell death and gene expression alterations promoting apoptosis and inhibiting proliferation, migration and glucose metabolism in small-cell lung cancer cells.

 

"These findings suggest that YXQ-EQ may exert anticancer effect through modulating gene expression in a way that facilitates cancer cell apoptosis while represses proliferation, metastasis, and glucose metabolism."

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20110687

External Qi of Yan Xin Qigong Induces apoptosis and inhibits migration and invasion of estrogen-independent breast cancer cells through suppression of Akt/NF-kB signaling.

 

"We show that YXQ-EQ treatment caused a time-dependent reduction in viability, blocked clonogenic growth and induced apoptosis in estrogen-independent breast cancer MDA-MB-231 cells. Furthermore, YXQ-EQ treatment blocked migration and invasion of MDA-MB-231 cells"

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12470443

A preliminary study of the effect of external qigong on lymphoma growth in mice

 

"These preliminary results, while still inconclusive, suggest that qigong treatment from one particular qigong practitioner might influence the growth of lymphoma cells negatively. Further studies with different practitioners, more repeated trials, and/or different tumor models are needed to further investigate the effects of external qigong on tumor growth in mice."

Those are so limited evidences.

1. Yan xin is known by almost everyone in China as a famous qigong cheater now.

2. Many articals in Chinese journals are cheating often.

3. Last one is still inconclusive.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Lao Tzu

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

I'm probably going to eternally regret entering into this debate on energy projection/Qigong and cancer, especially as it seems to be going around and around without resolution;

 

I want to suggest we are looking at this wrongly. Why the obsession with cancer ?

 

I'm a healer. Eighteen years, man and boy. I also practice various forms of Qigong. Energy work is my passion. My healing ability is natural, as my Great Grandfather was a famous healer too. But if pressed, I'd say that all I do is project energy, exactly as a Qigong healer would do.

 

I've healed over twenty thousand people in my time as a healer, and a good number of them had cancer.

 

Cancer is absolutely heal-able.

 

I see cancer as an external manifestation of energy. No different to any other illness. Its physical manifestation reflects the unexpressed emotional/physical or psychological history and patterns of the patient. You can argue that for as long as you like, but thats been my hands-on experience over 18 years.

 

A nice example, as an illustration of whats possible;

 

A man with highly aggressive prostate cancer. Rated 10/10 on the Gleeson scale. Aggressive and needing radical medical treatment, including removal of prostate. Patient was highly successful property developer, with a younger wife, so didn't want to lose his prostate. He elected to try my work.

 

Ten treatments later, there is no cancer in his body. Two scans, and then two biopsies confirm my treatment has worked. Two years later, he is still free of cancer. And a very happy man.

 

This thread perpetuates the myth that cancer is somehow special. That it is the holy grail. Thats rubbish. The only difference is that medical science has bought into the cancer myth, as have the general public. Its the enemy, the war on cancer, the big C........when in fact the patients perception of their illness and their desire/belief in their own ability to survive is at least as big a factor in their healing as any treatment they receive.

 

So I have dozens of those cases, and a good number of doctors, even consultants, here in England, who quietly send their cancer patients to me. Its all done quietly, without fuss, without drama, without publicity.

 

And of course, because of my success, I have survived attempted murder, assault, and a terrifying hate campaign, run by one women and a couple of her friends, none of whom have ever met me. Character assassination, death threats, threats to my family and friends, threats to patients if they dared speak up........the most terrible lies.....There is no crime she has not accused me of.......quite publicly and openly.

 

There are amazing people, including Qigong healers, doing amazing things with cancer. And the majority will not speak of it, for fear of suffering what I have suffered.

 

If the healer does the right thing at the right time, and the patient is open, the cancer will heal.

[Lao Tzu]

You have a dangerous way of lumping everything into one basket as part of your pre-conceived ideas concerning Qi emission and Qi healing.

 

Just because someone can do Qi emission does not mean they can specifically cure cancer. Just as we don't assume that a person who calls himself a 'doctor' is able to do open heart surgery. You have to know his specialty, right? So let's at least apply some logic to this. If you want to investigate Qi and cancer, you need to do some homework, not just sit here and type nonsense. We are not here to provide scientific validation to satisfy your inexposure and inexperience with Qi healing.

But we ARE talking about whether Qi emission can cure cancer, right?

[konchog uma]

Those are so limited evidences.

1. Yan xin is known by almost everyone in China as a famous qigong cheater now.

2. Many articals in Chinese journals are cheating often.

3. Last one is still inconclusive.

 

your responses are really predictable.

 

why don't you provide some evidence to support YOUR claims, instead of saying "oh i'll be back later to try to support that" and then never addressing it again?

[Jetsun]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1819037

The antitumor effects of qigong-emitted external Qi and its influence on the immunologic functions of tumor-bearing mice

 

"The results demonstrate that Qigong-emitted external Qi (QEQ) has inhibitory effects on tumor growth of tumor-bearing mice (TBM) and enhancing effects on antitumor immunologic functions of the tumor host simultaneously. Moreover, when used in combination with CY, QEQ can not only significantly increase the antitumor efficacy, but also markedly improve the compromised antitumor immunologic functions of the tumor host"

[dawei]

But we ARE talking about whether Qi emission can cure cancer, right?

The link for PubMed was made and simply stated as "Evidence for Medical Qigong". Simply stated.

 

Then you lumped into that website into a requirement for cases of it curing cancer...

 

If you want to research specific cases of Qigong and Cancer, I pointed out that you need to focus your search to places which focus on Qigong and Cancer... Your going to need to look at more than The U.S. National Library of Medicine. I am not sure why this is so hard to understand.

 

Is it possible for Qigong to cure Cancer?

 

If your answer is NO, then how do you prove that position?

 

You can't simply play down every piece of evidence with an opinion alone.