What is Zazen...?

[ChiDragon]

There are so much talk about "meditation" on the forum. Has anyone given a thought to Zazen(打坐)...??? What is it...???

[Marblehead]

There are so much talk about "meditation" on the forum. Has anyone given a thought to Zazen(打坐)...??? What is it...???

 

No, I have not given "zazen" any thought. Would you care to share?

[Bubbles]

Has anyone given a thought to Zazen(打坐)...??? What is it...???

 

One giving thoughts to zazen can't understand zazen, once one practices zazen he doesn't care anymore about understanding zazen, so you would be better off beginning the practice by following the instructions below:

 

zazen instructions

Edited December 23, 2011 by bubbles

[lifeforce]

The source of zazen Edited December 23, 2011 by lifeforce

[Bubbles]

Another set of instructions

 

Your set is better than the one I gave. The master I followed when I practiced zen is the Dharma heir of Gudo Nishijima.

 

_/\_

[Marblehead]

Oh!, I just love it when Buddhism and Taoism get all mixed up. Little wonder I had no knowledge of the word "zazen".

[ChiDragon]

I knew I would have opened a can of worms...............

 

But not just that, also meditation and zazen....

Edited December 23, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I knew I would have opened a can of worms...............

 

But not just that, also meditation and zazen....

 

If you ever get really hungry remember that worms are good protein.

 

Yes, many different meditation practices draw on both Buddhism and Taoism.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, many different meditation practices draw on both Buddhism and Taoism.

 

Since Buddhism and Taoism have different names, thus there must be a difference between them. From a Chinese point of view, here is how I had been introduced and understood throughout my life.

 

I will borrow the word "meditation" for easy distinction and explanation.

 

1. Meditation in Taoism is called Zazen(打坐).

2. Meditation in Buddhism is called Zen(禪坐).

 

1. Zazen in Taoism was to do breathing exercise(Chi Kung) in a sitting position to absorb Chi for health reason and longevity.

 

2. Zen requires the sitting position as in Zazen. Zen was to be performed by a high ranked monk which goes into deep thoughts about Buddhism philosophy or other unresolved intellectual issues for enlightenment. After the issue has been resolved mentally from Zen, one had discovered a new idea or philosophy. Then, he was considered that he had been enlightened for a particular highest thought.

Edited December 23, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Ha! I fail to qualify for either definition. Oh well.

[Bubbles]

Ha! I fail to qualify for either definition. Oh well.

 

Wise Marblehead.

[Bubbles]

Since Buddhism and Taoism have different names, thus there must be a difference between them. From a Chinese point of view, here is how I had been introduced and understood throughout my life.

 

I will borrow the word "meditation" for easy distinction and explanation.

 

1. Meditation in Taoism is called Zazen(打坐).

2. Meditation in Buddhism is called Zen(禪坐).

 

1. Zazen in Taoism was to do breathing exercise(Chi Kung) in a sitting position to absorb Chi for health reason and longevity.

 

2. Zen requires the sitting position as in Zazen. Zen was to be performed by a high ranked monk which goes into deep thoughts about Buddhism philosophy or other unresolved intellectual issues for enlightenment. After the issue has been resolved mentally from Zen, one had discovered a new idea or philosophy. Then, he was considered that he had been enlightened for a particular highest thought.

 

You clearly don't know what you are talking about.

 

You don't practice Zen meditation, but still pretend to know what it is.

 

Your definitions are false.

 

Wise Marblehead!

[Marblehead]

Wise Marblehead.

 

Hehehe. Please don't put too much of that on me. I screw up regularly, I just don't tell y'all about it.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Marblehead

[Bubbles]

Hehehe. Please don't put too much of that on me. I screw up regularly, I just don't tell y'all about it.

 

Seeing your flaws makes you wiser than the blind. Not willing to engage into fruitless battles makes you wiser than me

[Marblehead]

Seeing your flaws makes you wiser than the blind. Not willing to engage into fruitless battles makes you wiser than me

 

Thanks. But give yourself credit for recognizing the differences. (Hehehe. See me talking about differences when I am engaged in a discussion of non-dualities.)

[Elliot]

Nothing Special.

[doc benway]

Since Buddhism and Taoism have different names, thus there must be a difference between them. From a Chinese point of view, here is how I had been introduced and understood throughout my life.

 

I will borrow the word "meditation" for easy distinction and explanation.

 

1. Meditation in Taoism is called Zazen(打坐).

2. Meditation in Buddhism is called Zen(禪坐).

 

1. Zazen in Taoism was to do breathing exercise(Chi Kung) in a sitting position to absorb Chi for health reason and longevity.

 

2. Zen requires the sitting position as in Zazen. Zen was to be performed by a high ranked monk which goes into deep thoughts about Buddhism philosophy or other unresolved intellectual issues for enlightenment. After the issue has been resolved mentally from Zen, one had discovered a new idea or philosophy. Then, he was considered that he had been enlightened for a particular highest thought.

ChiDragon speaks doesn't know....

We've been through this in other threads and I have disengaged from this discussion elsewhere.

Because some new folks are participating and there has been mention of disinformation, I'd like to add my view.

 

打坐 is not zazen, it is dazuo in Chinese and taza in Japanese and is literally translated as just sitting.

The Japanese often use the phrase 只管打坐 ( shi kan ta za) meaning nothing but precisely sitting.

Da means to hit, strike, or attack and has the feeling of doing something actively and precisely.

Zuo means to sit.

So an English speaker can interpret the use of 打坐 together as meaning just sitting or precisely sitting.

 

禪坐 is not zen, it is chan zuo in Chinese and zen za in Japanese. The Japanese usually refer to it as 坐禅 (zazen), although 坐禪 is the same. Chan and Zen are the Chinese and Japanese pronunciations of 禪. 禪 is the traditional way of writing the character and 禅 is the simplified way of writing the same character. Chan (Zen) can be translated in many ways but its mostly accepted that it derives from the Sanskrit dhyana (and the Pali jhana) which means something like absorption or contemplation. It is meant to imply a state of mind, or more precisely: non-mind and has been referred to in many ways - unconditioned awareness, Buddha mind, non-dual awareness, and so on and so on. And we can get into a very deep debate about what this state is and is not but that's for a different post.

 

My Daoist meditation teacher refers to meditation in Daoism using the characters 道家靜坐 which are pronounced dao jia jing zuo and literally mean Daoist quiet sitting or sometimes just 靜坐, quiet sitting. I don't mean to suggest this is the authoritative way of saying meditation among Daoists, just his and probably adopted from his teacher. This varies with school and tradition.

 

What I can say is that :

"Zazen in Taoism was to do breathing exercise(Chi Kung) in a sitting position to absorb Chi for health reason and longevity."

is a very imprecise statement. It leaves a lot out. It is an expression of ChiDragon's thoughts about what Daoist meditation should be because he has never studied Daoist meditation with a teacher and would like his qigong practice to be equivalent to Daoist meditation.

 

It is not.

 

Daoist meditation does involve sitting and breathing but the key elements are actively cultivating skill in the use of the 意 Yi (mind of intent). This is done through a variety of practices - some referred to as water methods, some referred to as fire methods. I have been instructed in a fire method. This is the method by which we convert 精 Jing (essence) to 氣 Qi (qi) and then Qi to 神 Shen (spirit). Once Shen is cultivated, one can return to 無 Wu (void). Return to void is basically the equivalent of the aim of zazen and dazuo - letting go of all mental constructs, including those created by years of dedicated cultivation practice, and resting in a state of absorption/meditation/contemplation/Buddha mind/emptiness/non-dual awareness/unconditioned awareness/original mind/natural mind/use whatever words or concepts you want. And then we can get into a discussion of what a Daoist immortal is and how that may or may not relate to the Buddhist concept of emptiness and Buddhahood, and the Hindu concept of non-duality and Brahman, and the Christian concept of Christ and Heaven, and the Jewish concept of Ayn Sof but it's probably better not to go there.... people don't seem to like to compare their "truths" to other peoples' "truths"

 

And then on to the even more inaccurate statement:

"Zen requires the sitting position as in Zazen. Zen was to be performed by a high ranked monk which goes into deep thoughts about Buddhism philosophy or other unresolved intellectual issues for enlightenment. After the issue has been resolved mentally from Zen, one had discovered a new idea or philosophy. Then, he was considered that he had been enlightened for a particular highest thought."

Wow! Where in the world did that come from?

Clearly ChiDragon has never had any instruction in zazen and has derived his concept of Zen from completely incorrect source material.

The reason that the characters

坐禅

打坐

and

只管打坐

are used to describe this practice is because they try to convey the "idea" that we are 打坐 "just sitting" or "precisely sitting" or 只管打坐 "nothing but precisely sitting." The implication here is that there is no "idea" involved. There is no thinking mind involved. No philosophy, no deep thoughts, no intellect, no highest thought. It can be practiced by anyone who is alive, not a high ranked monk. It is a "method" to bring the practitioner to rest in a state of awareness that is devoid of mental constructs. It is meant to put us in contact with what we are, that from whence all mental constructs arise but which is, of itself, completely unrelated to and beyond any mental construct. It is inherently paradoxical to the rational mind because it is not of the rational mind. I'll stop trying use words to describe it but suffice it to say that the practice of zazen and the aim of Zen is not of the thinking mind, it has nothing to do with philosophy, it is not even about achieving enlightenment, it is "precisely sitting."

 

So I'll stop here. Sorry for the long winded exposition. But I do think that ChiDragon's definitions above are very misleading and did not want to let it lie for those who may be new to this material.

[doc benway]

I screw up regularly, I just don't tell y'all about it.

You don't have to!

And yet you remain, wise marblehead.

_/\_

[Ish]

IMO and IME its completely incorrect that Zen or Buddhism in general involves intellectualisation as a method of Prajna or wisdom

[LaughingNumbSkull]

Hmmmmmmmmmm...well...I learned something today.

 

Here I always thought Zazen was another way of saying 'Zen' meditation. Never fully understood why they added the extra 'Za' to it though. Lol.

 

 

...wait what?

 

Noooooooo, I agree with Steve when he says more disinformation on the forum. Zazen is NOT

Edited December 24, 2011 by LaughingNumbSkull

[ChiDragon]

I grant you all for knowing the meaning of the Chinese characters. However, going by the superficial meaning of the character is not the way to go with conceptual matters. What it counts is the concept behind terms were used. FYI each character has its unique meaning, but in application when they were compounded with each other to form a term. The term forms a definition or a concept behind it.

 

If one just by translating the characters without knowing their concepts in application, it would be just like practicing blindly and cultivating fanatically.

 

Like Marblehead says we are talking about concepts here but not learning the basic meaning of the characters.

 

I have no objection for your continuation of understanding the meaning of the characters without conceptual knowledge.

 

PS...

Can somebody help me to define what is "skeleton meditation" or "testicle breathing"...??? I believe I had seen thess terms somewhere in the forum.

Edited December 24, 2011 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

However, going by the superficial meaning of the character is not the way to go with conceptual matters. What it counts is the concept behind terms were used. FYI each character has its unique meaning, but in application when they were compounded with each other to form a term. The term forms a definition or a concept behind it.

 

If one just by translating the characters without knowing their concepts in application, it would be just like practicing blindly and cultivating fanatically.

 

Exactly!

And trying to understand Daoist meditation and cultivation through reading books and learning concepts is equally worthless.

 

If you want to know zazen, you must practice zazen.

It is very simple to learn.

 

If you want to know Daojia Jingzuo, you must find a teacher.

Much more complex, but no more difficult than zazen.

Reading books on the subject will not help you to gain the skill that arises from the practices nor make you an authority.

My teacher carefully distinguishes between practitioners and scholars...

One hour of proper meditation is infinitely more instructive than reading everything ever written about it.

Reading about meditation is as beneficial to the spirit as reading a menu is to satisfying hunger...

[ChiDragon]

hehehhe.....

I am glad you have found a good teacher and had given you good information...

[Bubbles]

I have no objection for your continuation of understanding the meaning of the characters without conceptual knowledge.

 

 

I have objection for your intention to understand something conceptually without any experience of it.

 

Would you be able to fully grasp the reality of the strawberry without experience of it? Do you think the conceptual meaning of it could have been built without experience? Do you confuse words and experiential realities?

Concepts without experience are empty talk, if I care to stay polite. This is true in general but all the more true when it comes to spiritual practices.

 

If miracles are possible in this Christmas time, I wish you will be able to empty your cup and listen to what steve and others have repeatedly said to you when you pretend to know it all only by the way of dictionaries.

Edited December 24, 2011 by bubbles

[ChiDragon]

bubbles...

I am just realized I knew nothing at all... You all won.