What is Zazen...?

[Bubbles]

bubbles...

I am just realized I knew nothing at all... You all won.

 

This was not the point and you know that.

[Marblehead]

You don't have to!

And yet you remain, wise marblehead.

_/\_

 

Thanks for that Steve!

[ChiDragon]

Thanks for that Steve!

That's what you get for not getting into any argument....

[Marblehead]

That's what you get for not getting into any argument....

 

Hehehe. But I do watch you guys in threads where I have an interest.

[Aaron]

Reading about meditation is as beneficial to the spirit as reading a menu is to satisfying hunger...

 

 

Yes! I actually keep lamenting because I haven't meditated since I left my home and moved in with a fellow Tao Bum. I tried to rationalize that it was okay because at least I was reading a book, but really the book is not nearly as good as the actual practice.

 

Of course many Westerners used to complain that Allan Watts didn't meditate and his response was something to the effect that sitting alone doesn't do much, and that once you've learned as much as you can from sitting, it's time to move on. I honestly think I can learn a bit more from sitting, so I'll sit til I think I can't.

 

But yeah, you can read all you want to about meditation, but it's not going to do anything for you. If you're only interested in the scholarly aspect, then that's fine, but if you want to learn about meditation, it doesn't take any special training, just go someplace quiet, sit down and let your mind become calm. I think you'll gain more insight in a week from sitting regularly for a half-hour each day, than you'll gain in a year from reading regularly. At least that's my opinion.

 

Aaron

Edited December 24, 2011 by Twinner

[Ish]

Dhyana (sanskrit for "meditation") = Ch'an (chinese) = Zen (japanese)

Zazen = seated meditation.

[thelerner]

...

 

You don't practice Zen meditation.

...

I agree, Zazen as defined and practiced in Japan is very well explained in Bubbles zazen instructions http://www.mro.org/zmm/teachings/zazeninst.pdf.

 

If you want a basic understanding of what Zazen is, start there.

Edited December 25, 2011 by thelerner

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Keep in mind that zen abbots also talk to people between meditation sessions, to give them some keys to get a bit further in the meditation, to see obstacles that they may not have realized were hindering them, etc.. So not all written or spoken words about meditation are pointless (pun intended...), though of course if one does not follow through on what they learn then it will not do much..

[ChiDragon]

禪坐 is not zen, it is chan zuo in Chinese and zen za in Japanese. The Japanese usually refer to it as 坐禅 (zazen), although 坐禪 is the same. Chan and Zen are the Chinese and Japanese pronunciations of 禪. 禪 is the traditional way of writing the character and 禅 is the simplified way of writing the same character. Chan (Zen) can be translated in many ways but its mostly accepted that it derives from the Sanskrit dhyana (and the Pali jhana) which means something like absorption or contemplation. It is meant to imply a state of mind, or more precisely: non-mind and has been referred to in many ways - unconditioned awareness, Buddha mind, non-dual awareness, and so on and so on. And we can get into a very deep debate about what this state is and is not but that's for a different post.

 

Steve...

I only give you 50% credit for your comprehension in Chinese. I do have my reason for doing so.

 

You did not understand the difference between 禪坐 and 坐禪. 禪坐(a noun) was the name given to the 禪(zen) process. While one is sitting down performing 禪, it was said to be 坐禪(a verb). 禪 was originated from India as you had indicated. The meaning was altered a little bit in the Chinese Buddhism philosophy. I don't have time to go into the actual meaning right now. Maybe I'll going into it in the future.

 

BTW It is not wise to mix the Japanese term with the Chinese. The Japanese borrowed the Chinese characters to be used in their language. Sometimes, they altered the Chinese meaning to fit their culture. The characters in the Chinese terms sometime are reversed by the Japanese. If you want to be consistent, please stay within one language to avoid confusing yourself and others.

 

Shall we conduct this discussion in a friendly manner, instead of accusing each other "you don't know this but I know that."

[Bubbles]

If you want to be consistent, please stay within one language to avoid confusing yourself and others.

 

Shall we conduct this discussion in a friendly manner, instead of accusing each other "you don't know this but I know that."

 

If consistency is your primary concern, first practice Zen daily for at least 1 year and then we shall discuss. Otherwise your are confusing yourself and others.

 

What is the point of discussing about words when you don't know the reality they are referring to?

 

Friendship can include strong reminders that we should stick to the reality of things, when those things can only be reached and known through experience.

[Marblehead]

Now I'm confused. I shall go meditate.

[doc benway]

Steve...

I only give you 50% credit for your comprehension in Chinese. I do have my reason for doing so.

 

You did not understand the difference between 禪坐 and 坐禪. 禪坐(a noun) was the name given to the 禪(zen) process. While one is sitting down performing 禪, it was said to be 坐禪(a verb). 禪 was originated from India as you had indicated. The meaning was altered a little bit in the Chinese Buddhism philosophy. I don't have time to go into the actual meaning right now. Maybe I'll going into it in the future.

 

BTW It is not wise to mix the Japanese term with the Chinese. The Japanese borrowed the Chinese characters to be used in their language. Sometimes, they altered the Chinese meaning to fit their culture. The characters in the Chinese terms sometime are reversed by the Japanese. If you want to be consistent, please stay within one language to avoid confusing yourself and others.

 

Shall we conduct this discussion in a friendly manner, instead of accusing each other "you don't know this but I know that."

I try to be consistently friendly, except when I feel that someone is being unfriendly to me. Unfortunately, the way you present information often comes across as unfriendly, dogmatic, and condescending. Maybe it is unintentional but I think this is the reason why you often get unpleasant responses from some of us "Westerners." In this particular case you posted very inaccurate information in a dogmatic style. When you did this you must expect strong responses.

 

Regarding my comprehension, 50% is generous. I know very little about the Chinese language. I can recognize relatively few characters and write even fewer. I know nearly nothing about grammar and usage. I mostly use my notebooks developed from training with my teacher, guidance from a few Chinese friends and students, a few dictionaries, and online resources.

 

Regarding the mixing of Japanese and Chinese, I could not agree with you more.

Please recall that I did not mix Chinese and Japanese terms, you did.

I did not bring Zen and zazen and Daoism and Buddhism into this discussion, my friend, you did.

I was simply doing my best to clarify the two because your post was terribly confusing.

 

You said this - "Meditation in Taoism is called Zazen(打坐)."

It was misleading and is mixing Chinese and Japanese words and concepts. 打坐 is not zazen, it is taza in Japanese and dazuo in Chinese. I simply translated the characters literally, trying to show people what characters were being used and trying to clear up confusion that was created when you mixed English transliterations of Japanese words that refer to meditation (zazen) with the Chinese characters used to refer to meditation. There are many ways to say it that would be less confusing. For example -

"Meditation in Taoism is called dazuo (打坐) which is similar to zazen (坐禪) or taza (打坐) in Japanese."

 

Similarly, "Meditation in Buddhism is called Zen(禪坐)" is very inaccurate.

Here you use characters which would be pronounced zenza in Japanese (禪坐) and call it Zen which would more accurately be written 禪.

The word Zen in Japanese is not generally used to refer specifically to meditation in the English language, zazen is used for that.

The word Zen by itself normally refers to the entire school of Zen Buddhism.

The whole presentation was inaccurate and potentially confusing, at least to me.

It's possible that it was simply my own confusion but I doubt it.

I tried my best to clear it up for the benefit of us Westerners.

 

Most importantly, you are deeply mistaken in your understanding of both Zen and Daoist meditation practice.

This is due to a lack of direct experience. Several of us who do have direct experience in these practices are trying to correct the misinformation you have posted here and elsewhere. I'm sorry if this comes across as unfriendly, that is not my intent. My corrections are no more dogmatic than your misinformation.

 

So maybe you would be willing to give me a Chinese lesson regarding the usage of 打坐, 禪坐, and 坐禪 in the Chinese language in terms of which are nouns, verbs, how they are commonly used, etc... I'd appreciate that and we could all learn something. And if you have a working knowledge of Japanese, you could show us which terms are commonly used among the Japanese. I'd very much like to learn.

 

To my limited knowledge it goes something like this -

 

----- Chinese / Japanese/ English

禪 Chan / Zen / Refers to the a school of Mahayana Buddhism known as Chan in China and Zen in Japan

坐 zuo / za / Simply means to sit

打 da / ta / Literally means to hit or strike

打坐 dazuo / taza / Means "precisely sitting" or "just sitting" - often used in Japanese and Chinese to mean seated meditation

禪坐 chanzuo /zenza / Also means seated meditation I don't know how frequently this combination is used in either language, please help

坐禪 zuochan / zazen / Commonly used in Japanese to refer to zen style of meditation - Japanese use is equivalent to taza. I don't know about it's use in Chinese - is it commonly used? Is it equivalent to the use of zazen?

(please forgive this mess but I don't know how to format in this editor)

 

 

If there are other subtleties of usage, whether euphemistic or grammatical, please help me understand better.

 

Thanks

[ChiDragon]

To my limited knowledge it goes something like this -

 

----- Chinese / Japanese/ English

1. 禪 Chan / Zen / Refers to the a school of Mahayana Buddhism known as Chan in China and Zen in Japan

2. 坐 zuo / za / Simply means to sit

3. 打 da / ta / Literally means to hit or strike

4. 打坐 dazuo / taza / Means "precisely sitting" or "just sitting" - often used in Japanese and Chinese to mean seated meditation

5. 禪坐 chanzuo /zenza / Also means seated meditation I don't know how frequently this combination is used in either language, please help

6. 坐禪 zuochan / zazen / Commonly used in Japanese to refer to zen style of meditation - Japanese use is equivalent to taza. I don't know about it's use in Chinese - is it commonly used? Is it equivalent to the use of zazen?

(please forgive this mess but I don't know how to format in this editor)

 

 

If there are other subtleties of usage, whether euphemistic or grammatical, please help me understand better.

 

Steve...

Thank you for your humbleness. I have done some research last night. Since these are Chinese characters, I hope you don't mind that I go to its origin to find an answer. Let me consult with my electronic Chinese-English dictionary.

 

Here are my findings:

1. 禪

a. 泛指與佛教有關之事物

a. Everything pertaining to Buddhism

 

b. 指集中心志,思考真理的一種修行方法

b. It means to concentrate a thought in the heart; it is a cultivating method to investigate the truth mentally.

2. 坐: to sit (we have no problem with that.)

 

3. 打

a. 表示動作的詞（打掃）: the word was used to describe an action（to sweep)

b. 互相爭鬥(打架): to fight each other（fighting).

c. 敲擊(打鼓）: to beat on something, e.g. to beat on a drum

d. 揰擊: to strike on something

e. 振作: to encourage　e.g., 打起精神（to peak up one's spirit)

 

4. 打坐(dazuo)

a. 閉目盤膝而坐，調整氣息出入

a. To sit in a lotus position with the eyes closed; and modulating the breathing pattern in and out.

 

5. 禪坐(chanzuo), by definition 1, above, it's a term used by Buddhists describing their method of meditation while in the 打坐(dazuo) position.

 

6. 坐禪(zuochan) the Chinese used this term to describe the action in progress while 禪坐(chanzuo) was being performed.

 

 

 

Note:

1. The Japanese revered 禪坐(chanzuo) as 坐禪(zuochan) used as a verb description to mean the same thing.

 

2. 坐禪, the Japanese pronounced as "zazen", Since "zazen" was introduced to the west first, later the Chinese borrowed it back and used. Also, the term 打坐(dazuo) is very confusion in other languages, therefore, the Chinese used "zazen" to mean as 打坐(dazuo) for easy understanding. It was because, after all, 打坐(dazuo) does relate to 坐禪"zazen".

 

3. To make my point more clear, I would like to point out the difference between 打坐(dazuo) and 禪坐(chanzuo). 打坐(dazuo) requires breathing while 禪坐(chanzuo) requires both breathing and thinking(do real meditation).

 

These are the original Chinese thoughts about 打坐(dazuo) and 禪坐(chanzuo). The Taoists only perform 打坐(dazuo) and while the Buddhist monks do 禪坐(chanzuo).

[doc benway]

 

3. To make my point more clear, I would like to point out the difference between 打坐(dazuo) and 禪坐(chanzuo). 打坐(dazuo) requires breathing while 禪坐(chanzuo) requires both breathing and thinking(do real meditation).

 

These are the original Chinese thoughts about 打坐(dazuo) and 禪坐(chanzuo). The Taoists only perform 打坐(dazuo) and while the Buddhist monks do 禪坐(chanzuo).

I am OK with everything but what you concluded with above.

This is incorrect and very misleading.

 

打坐 (dazuo) can be used to refer to Daoist techniques and Buddhist techniques alike simply because it means nothing more than "precisely sitting." It does not imply a particular method or school.

 

禪坐( chanzuo) means specifically to sit in meditation in the style of Chan or Zen - 禪. 禪 means Chan/Zen.

 

All meditation requires breathing because we cannot live without breathing. Breathing is used in some methods as a way to develop focus and help the mind to break it's patterns of running free like a wild monkey. It brings the mind back to the physical sensations and gives us a reference point to keep us from straying too far. Most Daoist schools get into much more rigorous and demanding mental "exercises" to further develop the 意 (Yi - mind of intent). In fact, Daoist methods are primarily focused on development of 意, which is an aspect of mind but not precisely thinking, and is used in the process of converting Jing to Qi and Qi to Shen.

 

In contrast, Chan and Zen methods do NOT use thinking at all. Counting breath is a beginner's technique and is let go over time as the wild monkey mind becomes more tame. They practice 打坐 (dazuo), "just sitting" but it is often called 禪坐( chanzuo), because this is precisely the method of Chan/Zen. So it would be more accurate to reverse your last statement and to say that the Daoists use "thinking" or "do real meditation" (although this is not an accurate statement either because we are not talking about thinking as you understand it), as compared to the Chan and Zen methods which are basically "just sitting" and breathing. Some Zen/Chan schools also use more mental processes like koans but the student ultimately finds that the whole purpose of the koan is to exhaust the mind and demonstrate that there is no role for mind in meditation, it must be let go for liberation to occur. In fact, mind is exactly what we are liberated from.

 

Please consider trying some meditation practice so that you will have some understanding of what you are talking about.

Books simply are not enough.

Thanks for trying to help me understand the Chinese language better but, unfortunately, your lack of experience with meditation practice makes it difficult for you to understand what some of us are trying to clarify.

I will say once again, books are simply not enough.

[ChiDragon]

Steve...

Thank you for the informative discussion. Now, I know how the west was taught. Actually, the methods did not change but only in thinking. No harm was done. I am not insisting how things should be taught. My intention was to find out how the ideas had been changed drifting from one place to another...

[doc benway]

Steve...

Thank you for the informative discussion. Now, I know how the west was taught. Actually, the methods did not change but only in thinking. No harm was done. I am not insisting how things should be taught. My intention was to find out how the ideas had been changed drifting from one place to another...

You are too funny!

I do enjoy our exchanges...

 

We can only learn something new by first emptying our cup...

Your cup runneth over my friend.

If you are so firmly rooted in your ideas gleaned from books, why bother asking questions?

 

Is it really that painful to think you might actually learn something from the 鬼佬?

 

Be well...

[dawei]

Now, I know how the west was taught. Actually, the methods did not change but only in thinking. No harm was done. I am not insisting how things should be taught. My intention was to find out how the ideas had been changed drifting from one place to another...

How is the west taught?

 

Why do you think the method has not changed but only the thinking has changed?

 

The thinking by who?

[ChiDragon]

I am just comparing the literature in the Chinese society and the west here. The ideas just don't match from what I had read. Somehow, something just got lost in the transformation.

[ChiDragon]

You are too funny!

1. If you are so firmly rooted in your ideas gleaned from books, why bother asking questions?

 

2. Is it really that painful to think you might actually learn something from the 鬼佬?

 

Be well...

1. I want to know how the west was taught.

 

2. May I you the same question is painful to listen to what a Chinaman has to say....???

 

 

PS...

I get lots of updated information from the internet in my native language. I can cite any eastern cite which is in contradiction with the counter part of the western thinking and practice methods.

Edited December 27, 2011 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

How is the west taught?

 

Why do you think the method has not changed but only the thinking has changed?

 

You might just read the dialogue between Steve and CD...!!!

Edited December 27, 2011 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

You might just read the dialogue between Steve and CD...!!!

You write like you had an epiphany, like suddenly understanding NOW...

 

I wanted to know what trigger it just at this moment; what was it about this very exchange at this time which caused you to know?

 

if you don't want to discuss it, that's fine.

[doc benway]

2. May I you the same question is painful to listen to what a Chinaman has to say....???

 

I've already addressed this in the past - my teacher is Chinese.

I do listen to him very closely and it is not painful at all.

One of the principles that he stresses over all others is to practice rather than read...

I would be happy to learn from you but you are not experienced in Daoist (or Zen) meditation, you are quoting from books.

The truth is not to be found in books but in life.

[ChiDragon]

I've already addressed this in the past - my teacher is Chinese.

I do listen to him very closely and it is not painful at all.

One of the principles that he stresses over all others is to practice rather than read...

I would be happy to learn from you but you are not experienced in Daoist (or Zen) meditation, you are quoting from books.

The truth is not to be found in books but in life.

I see, I had been convicted as the guilty party that was not experienced in Daoist (or Zen) meditation and quoting from books. Oh, well...!!!

 

How do you know what kind of books that I'm reading. FYI, all the literature that I read are consistent in what I am practicing. I understand it very well. It is immaterial who one learned from. However, I made my comparison based upon how one conveys the message of what he knows or learned.

Edited December 27, 2011 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

I see, I had been convicted as the guilty party that was not experienced in Daoist (or Zen) meditation and quoting from books. Oh, well...!!!

 

How do you know what kind of books that I'm reading. FYI, all the literature that I read are consistent in what I am practicing. I understand it very well. It is immaterial who one learned from. However, I made my comparison based upon how one conveys the message of what he knows or learned.

It's not about guilt or innocence.

You made erroneous statements such as Tao meditation is about breathing and Zen is thinking about Buddhist philosophy.

If you read that in books then either the books are wrong or you are misunderstanding.

And there are many others examples in this thread alone which betray a lack of understanding of meditation.

 

This is because it really doesn't matter what books are being read - it cannot be captured in words.

It is not even about understanding - it cannot be grasped by the mind.

It does matter who we learn from, one cannot teach what one has no experience with.

And mostly it is about 打坐

And that is fine also, you do not need to meditate if you choose not to.

 

But in fact, you are guilty of making dogmatic statements about meditation that are blatantly wrong and claim that we in the West simply misunderstand or were taught incorrectly. When you admittedly have had no formal meditation instruction or practice.

Some of us have been blessed with good teachers who have immigrated from China.

And you are welcome to dismiss our information out of hand because we are not Chinese but we will continue to try and help those interested in learning to learn properly.

[ChiDragon]

打 坐 的 要 領 --- 調 身 調 息 調 心

 

什麼是上座的次第要領，一上座我們先調身，然後調息，然後調心。調身呢，就是先把自己的坐姿坐好，可以散盤，可以單盤，可以雙盤 ；左腳在下，右腳在上，或者左腳在上，右腳在下，不拘。兩掌相疊，如果左腳在下就左手掌在下，如果右腳在下就右手掌在下，拇指銜接，形成一個橢圓形，左右食指上下相疊，左右手食指的第2節相疊，這樣子差不多就會形成一個橢圓形，這等於一種『太極』手印。如果是雙盤的話，可以一隻手的手背靠在腳跟上。

 

然後肩膀放鬆，頸部打直放鬆。用頭頂的正上方，也就是兩耳頂端連線的正中間，來做調整姿勢的基準點，可以想像那一點有一條線往上拉，用那一條線來調整身體的正中線，然後用頭的上方，正上方那一點，也就是兩耳上方連線的中點，吊一根線往上拉，這裏面的作意要領是：用頭來支撐頸部與肩膀，不是用頸部與肩膀來支撐頭。頭是空的，頸部是空的，肩膀是鬆的，走路、站著、坐姿，通通是是這樣子，用兩耳上方的連結線的中點，做為調整身體姿勢的基準點。頭部中空，頸部中空，頸部放鬆，肩膀放鬆，用骨架打坐，不用肌肉打坐。所謂不用肌肉打坐，就是我們儘量不要用到肌肉的力量，儘量的讓身體重心形成一個三角點。

 

 

調身，主要的重點就是這兩個作意要領，第一個是『用頭來支撐頸部與肩膀』，不是用頸部、脊柱來支撐頭，我們打坐是頭頂青天，簡稱為『頂天立地』，不只是坐姿這樣子，立姿也是這樣子。第二個作意要領『是用骨架平衡身體的姿勢，儘量不要用到肌肉』，骨架是用來平衡，不是用來支撐。感覺上，肌肉完全沒用到力。坐姿如是，站姿也如是，走路也如是。

 

 

接著講調息，一上座，輕輕鬆鬆地做幾個深呼吸，然後再放輕鬆，念頭跟著呼吸，呼氣的時候知道呼氣，吸氣的時候知道吸氣，整個呼氣的過程，念頭只有呼，整個吸氣的過程，念頭只有吸。如果呼吸是一匹馬的話，那念頭就是騎馬的人，當念頭跟呼吸一體的時候，就是人馬一體，讓念頭跟著呼吸。如果呼吸是人的形體的話，念頭就是燈光下、夜光下的影子，讓念頭跟著呼吸，如影隨形，亦步亦趨。讓念頭跟著呼吸一步一步，輕鬆地跟著，卻一點也不離開，如影隨形，形影不離，呼氣，呼氣的整個過程知道呼氣；吸氣，吸氣的整個過程知道吸氣。　

 

 

接著是調心。這個階段，呼吸以外的念頭我們稱之為雜念，我們對雜念沒有抗拒，沒有不要，任何對雜念的抗拒和不要，我們稱之為大雜念。雜念來，不管它，只是回到呼吸，回到出入息。呼氣的時候知道呼氣，吸氣的時候知道吸氣。整個呼氣過程，念頭只有呼氣；整個吸氣過程，念頭只有吸氣。雜念來不管它，繼續回到『呼氣知道呼氣，吸氣知道吸氣』，不管是什麼樣的雜念，不管是可意的、不可意的，讓我們的身心放輕鬆，不要理它，不要排斥它，不要不要它，只是很單純地回來出入息，這樣子叫做調心。

 

Ref: 打坐(DaZuo)

 

I don't see anything about DaZuo that is close to the description here in the West. I will not translate this to avoid being biased on my part....