Behind the words

[doc benway]

Just yesterday I had a long conversation with a friend about communication. We were specifically discussing words vs. content.

When we communicate, there are always multiple levels occurring. And we are able to perceive and respond on multiple levels simultaneously, and much of that is subconscious. Mirror neuron activity is a good example of that. Similarly, there was some recent discussion about standing waves and awareness - standing waves that arise as a result of local neuronal activity may be an explanation for individual consciousness and thought. And why couldn't such standing waves develop among a group of individuals and so forth...

 

But then when we bring that to the internet forum, we are left with nothing but typed words, avatars, smileys, links, and so the extraction of meaning is much more challenging. But I agree with you -K- that there is always much going on behind the words. I think that some of us are more sensitive to that than others. In fact, it can become a problem for some. There are definitely folks that are so sensitive to the subtext, that the words themselves are secondary and often meaningless, especially when the words and the subtext are contradictory. And this is where our discussion started.

 

In social interaction, there is an enormously complex web of social agreements and conventions. And these are in place exactly to allow us to present a mask when we interact with each other, while hiding potentially embarrassing, harmful, or threatening feelings and thoughts. In fact, the word "person" comes from "persona" - the Latin word for the mask used in a theatrical play. Some people are so sensitive to the sub-text, that the contradictory words lead to serious confusion which in turn leads to social anxiety. In fact, my friend is one and one of my children is this way as well. To some degree, I believe this to be hard wired into some individuals. I also think that one can learn to read sub-text by opening up to the more subtle forms of communication - body language, facial expressions, and so on. And we can also get into all kinds of energetic forms of communication but I'm going to avoid going down that path simply because I'd rather stay on footing where everyone can relate.

 

So I agree -K- that there is always a message behind the words. In fact, a big part of my job involves reading between the lines and getting to know someone beyond what they are willing or able to volunteer. And as Marbles said earlier, he carefully chooses his words (as do I) and that in and of itself tells us a lot about him, his character, his values. And there are others who type stream of thought, and that is revealing. And so on. And then there are the mis-spellings, intentional or otherwise, the volume of posts, the jokesters, etc... And the nastiness and cruelty that comes out both explicitly and implicitly. And it's also interesting to notice what is left unsaid - this can be revealing. It's also really interesting to look at how people respond under stress - do they lose control, do they quit, do they take a deep breath and respond dispassionately, and so on. And it's wonderful to look at someone's style of posting and compare it to a year ago and see what's similar (a sign of their nature) and what's different ( a sign of their mood and progress).

 

And I'm no expert on this but I do find it fascinating and important to recognize and consider in our communication. Great thread!

[Birch]

I am checking out this book. The exercises could prove to be very helpful in all of this...but beware, the book is DENSE.

 

Thanks, will check it out.

[Birch]

I was reading something about traditional societies that the "scapegoat" would play a valuable role as a target or container for negative energy for people within the community to project onto until they were mature enough to deal with it, that person was subconsciously chosen as the scapegoat because they had the inner strength and spiritual wisdom to sublimate those energies so they do no harm, so even though they were mocked and shunned by society they played a crucial role in stability and healing. The traditional shaman played that role and other cultures had similar roles such as the "sin eater" in ancient Britain, the problem now is that people are still scapegoated but they are not valued or trained how to heal the energies they are forced to contain so they become ill and neurotic.

 

Yes, sounds quite like what I reckon goes on. Not to say I have wisdom or anything. I'm not quite sure about that but I think all it takes is to be selected by other people regardless. Then you wonder "WTF?' and have to spend years figuring everything out and doing strange training which is where I suspect the wisdom might come from in the end. Just working with it. If I were going to get esoteric on this, I'd say that the shamans are on their way back in because other "standard" religions aren't going to help people face future challenges. Of course they (the "standard" religions) might see the chaos as a huge opportunity to gain muster but I think they'd be doing a disservice to people. If you look at the current play of religious influences into actual cultural reality, it's no longer homogeneous enough to be either credible nor functional. So the response almost has to be shamanic.

 

----opinion alert----

 

Edit:typo and to admit I really would like to have wisdom, sounds like a nice thing

Edited December 29, 2011 by -K-

[Birch]

[quote name='Harmonious Emptiness' date='29 December 2011 - 06:42 AM' timestamp='1325169778' post=

 

So some people have managed to beat all the symptoms away, but they still carry the anger and so they spit it on people without even realizing what is lurking underneath them, thinking they have totally quashed it by just blocking the symptoms, but really sometimes just build up even stronger bacterias of anger which effects others very quickly. At least if we show the symptoms we can get over them, turn away when we sneeze, and deal with the issue before it affects other people.

 

It's my opinion that we can't really help resonating with our environment. I think the trick is to be in tune, but in harmony rather than the exact frequency. So we don't really change our note, we just alter it slightly to help the other person find "the pocket" of harmonic pitch ("pocket" is a rhythm term, but useful here). Then we can get others to resonate better; get them to resonate more in harmony and in tune if we change only enough to let them in. I guess this works with rhythm too, slowing down a bit to get everyone on the train, so to speak.

 

So it might come upon us to help someone out of their anger, which is not necessarily bad depending on how the opportunity is availed to us.

 

So cooling people's anger can have a lot with getting them to let go of some unnecessary desire, if you can find what it is and make them forget about it. Contentment, happiness, and energy can co-emerge, usually...

 

 

Note: had to pare down quote to be able to type reply! Not a selection of what I'm responding to:-)

 

That was a great post H_E, thanks!

Funnily enough, I feel like I've caught a cold. Spent a lot of time with lots of different people over the holiday season.

[Birch]

Super post Steve!

 

I think I have no qualms at all with the ideas in it in a face to face social setting. Totally agree that all these things are going on. What I'm very surprised about is the online part of it where emotions are (I feel) definitely transmitted almost regardless of what people are writing.

 

To say meaning is "extracted" is an interesting choice as again it seems to put the onus on the receiver for their choice of attribution. I think that's interesting, it's also (seems) to be what all of these "change your understanding" practices are about. So a message is sent, i don't like it and it's up to me to modify the meaning so it doesn't bother me, regardless of sender's intent. I feel that's a bit dishonest in some way, both to oneself, and the sender.

 

But of course, to avoid conflict and look a bit "more wiser" in the eyes of others, I will take some time to process and then return with something well chosen:-) And in the meantime go off and punch things in the guise of IMA :-)

[doc benway]

 

To say meaning is "extracted" is an interesting choice as again it seems to put the onus on the receiver for their choice of attribution. I think that's interesting, it's also (seems) to be what all of these "change your understanding" practices are about. So a message is sent, i don't like it and it's up to me to modify the meaning so it doesn't bother me, regardless of sender's intent. I feel that's a bit dishonest in some way, both to oneself, and the sender.

 

But of course, to avoid conflict and look a bit "more wiser" in the eyes of others, I will take some time to process and then return with something well chosen:-) And in the meantime go off and punch things in the guise of IMA :-)

I agree with you that our interpretation is every bit as important as the sender's intent.

The "truth" lies somewhere in the middle I guess.

And while it is valuable to observe the behavior of others it is even more important to watch ourselves.

Why am I participating in this forum? this discussion?

Why am I compelled to see how others have responded to something I posted? what does that tell me about ME?

And so on - I've come to use this forum more as a tool to learn about myself than as a method to learn about Daoism or practices or whatever else...

[Birch]

I agree with you that our interpretation is every bit as important as the sender's intent.

The "truth" lies somewhere in the middle I guess.

And while it is valuable to observe the behavior of others it is even more important to watch ourselves.

Why am I participating in this forum? this discussion?

Why am I compelled to see how others have responded to something I posted? what does that tell me about ME?

And so on - I've come to use this forum more as a tool to learn about myself than as a method to learn about Daoism or practices or whatever else...

Yes I agree with this. But then in a sense, isn't that "using" other people to improve one's own mindfulness? I'm not quite sure about the ethics of it. I suppose if everyone agrees that the forum is a sort of a training ground of sorts and agrees that that's the ideal use of it then that seems ok to me but what about the people who arrive here in actual need of help and haven't agreed to anything? Whether with cultivation issues or "real world" stuff. Is it then helpful of me to be even throwing in my 2cts if I'm not here to offer help or information I found somewhere that could help? And what if I offer and the poster goes "nah, what a bunch of BS" - might they be correct, and me entirely offside? And what are the consequences for them if they do take what I'm saying seriously? I don't think I have answers to this, but I often wonder if what I'm doing on TTB's ought to either be more helpful to other people or just stick to philosophical discussions about this and that. Which would put TTB's definitely into some kind of intellectual entertainment category for me.

 

Edit: found this link http://www.afterpsychotherapy.com/mind-and-meaning-one/

Edited December 29, 2011 by -K-

[Mark Foote]

Yes I agree with this. But then in a sense, isn't that "using" other people to improve one's own mindfulness? I'm not quite sure about the ethics of it. I suppose if everyone agrees that the forum is a sort of a training ground of sorts and agrees that that's the ideal use of it then that seems ok to me but what about the people who arrive here in actual need of help and haven't agreed to anything? Whether with cultivation issues or "real world" stuff. Is it then helpful of me to be even throwing in my 2cts if I'm not here to offer help or information I found somewhere that could help? And what if I offer and the poster goes "nah, what a bunch of BS" - might they be correct, and me entirely offside? And what are the consequences for them if they do take what I'm saying seriously? I don't think I have answers to this, but I often wonder if what I'm doing on TTB's ought to either be more helpful to other people or just stick to philosophical discussions about this and that. Which would put TTB's definitely into some kind of intellectual entertainment category for me.

 

Edit: found this link http://www.afterpsychotherapy.com/mind-and-meaning-one/

 

I feel that we now get down to it. Where's my crystal ball.

 

For me, it's more about stepping past discriminations of good and bad, and letting the real feelings enter into the place I'm reading or writing from. I don't have to know what-all enters into my sense of place, to have a sense of place that is responsive. I do have to hold space for myself to develop a sense of place, to respond on Tao Bums. I have faith that if I myself am where I belong, what people have to give me will be appropriate, in spite of any appearances to the contrary. I have to find that faith, and deal with my own attraction, repulsion, and ignorance, but my experience has always shown me that such faith is well-placed.

 

Have you read "Emotional Intelligence", by Daniel Goleman?

Edited December 30, 2011 by Mark Foote

[Birch]

I feel that we now get down to it. Where's my crystal ball.

 

For me, it's more about stepping past discriminations of good and bad, and letting the real feelings enter into the place I'm reading or writing from. I don't have to know what-all enters into my sense of place, to have a sense of place that is responsive. I do have to hold space for myself to develop a sense of place, to respond on Tao Bums. I have faith that if I myself am where I belong, what people have to give me will be appropriate, in spite of any appearances to the contrary. I have to find that faith, and deal with my own attraction, repulsion, and ignorance, but my experience has always shown me that such faith is well-placed.

 

Have you read "Emotional Intelligence", by Daniel Goleman?

 

Nice post Mark! Yes I have read that book. Not much memory of it, however.

 

Edit: congee:-) could be a good idea for us all:-)

Edited December 30, 2011 by -K-

[guruyoga]

I am checking out this book. The exercises could prove to be very helpful in all of this...but beware, the book is DENSE.

 

 

Looks interesting!! The same author also has another book in the format of a workbook...But it's not clear if the workbook is a condensed version of the bigger book. I am super tempted to get one of the two

[三江源]

.

Edited March 10, 2015 by 三江源

[Birch]

Oh wow Cat! Yes I have experienced it first hand. I suppose that goes a long way to explain why I'm "picky" about communication and potentially also where my high emotional/feeling sensitivity is from. In other words, if you can't count on someone to tell you the truth, you have to find some other way :-)

 

I suppose it also explains my distaste for "it's all in the eye of the beholder" or to further translate "it's all in your head" type philosophies. To me they are a reminder of similar unpleasantness. And if we go further into the "you do not exist" type of idea, frequently bandied harder and more often by people who themselves are supposed to have (at least in theory) accepted that they themselves do not exist but can't just stop there and be content with it but also insist on bringing the good news to all and then proceed to argue the life out of folks, well, we have a winning combination

 

Winning for whom exactly is a whole other thing.

[Aetherous]

Looks interesting!! The same author also has another book in the format of a workbook...But it's not clear if the workbook is a condensed version of the bigger book. I am super tempted to get one of the two

 

Having looked at both, it seems that the workbook is just a condensed version.

 

I really like it (the full version). Basically, in my own words, it is a practice of "heartfulness", or mindfulness while cultivating the qualities of the heart. Love that term.

 

There are two main practices...

 

The first practice, "joyful attention", is focusing on novelty in the world in the present moment. For instance, observing the qualities of an orange...the smell, the texture, the color, the feel, the taste. You do things like this all day...the beginning of the book which is TONS of extra info explains in mathematical detail why we should do this. I advise starting with the back of the book if you want the basics.

 

The second main practice is cultivating "saintly attention" or what I'd rather call "heartful attention"...an example of this is saying 'bless you' mentally to everyone you meet, and sending them love. Or cultivating gratitude, compassion, acceptance, love, forgiveness and higher meaning/purpose. Good things to contemplate.

 

At least personally, putting this into practice is a huge step away from my common tendency on this forum, of judging things based on my preferences and prejudices. It's a big choice to make, to not be your usual self and become heartful.

 

There are other supplementary aspects in the book, but that is the basic idea.

 

Edit: by the way, for those who read this who aren't totally motivated in changing themselves like this, in each moment...don't get the book! Don't waste the money, because it's incredibly challenging to read. Realllllly boring, and takes a lot of your own effort.

Edited December 30, 2011 by Scotty

[Aetherous]

Just came up with something that might be useful...

 

When you are getting a vibe about someone, take a second and consider them to be like a character in a movie. They are just playing a part....not everyone can play the same role. Diverse types of characters are what make movies interesting to watch. So they are reframed as an "interesting character" rather than as "that stupid asshole bastard" or whatever else they are.

 

Or to put it in another way of thinking...each person is like a different type of spice in a really tasty dish. If you were to just take peppercorns and try to eat them, it would be disgusting...but when you realize that it's just one tiny aspect of the whole, then it's easier to take in. Maybe even enjoyable.

 

So that person, with their supposedly imperfect vibe, is allowed to be who they are...which can be powerfully healing for them! To be allowed to exist imperfectly, with no exceptions...to be accepted by another...maybe even appreciated for your unique qualities!

 

Yum.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Scotty

[Birch]

Just came up with something that might be useful...

 

When you are getting a vibe about someone, take a second and consider them to be like a character in a movie. They are just playing a part....not everyone can play the same role. Diverse types of characters are what make movies interesting to watch. So they are reframed as an "interesting character" rather than as "that stupid asshole bastard" or whatever else they are.

 

Or to put it in another way of thinking...each person is like a different type of spice in a really tasty dish. If you were to just take peppercorns and try to eat them, it would be disgusting...but when you realize that it's just one tiny aspect of the whole, then it's easier to take in. Maybe even enjoyable.

 

So that person, with their supposedly imperfect vibe, is allowed to be who they are...which can be powerfully healing for them! To be allowed to exist imperfectly, with no exceptions...to be accepted by another...maybe even appreciated for your unique qualities!

 

Yum.

I think that's a good idea Scott. Thanks!