Kuan Yin from a Taoist Perspective

[RyanO]

Kuan Yin is a very interesting figure whose nature is described differently depending on one's perspective. For Buddhists, she is the bodhisattva Avolekitesvara in female form. For Taoists, she is an Immortal with different origins.

 

Most of the information I have seen about her is from the Buddhist tradition (eg Blofeld's Bodhisatvva of Compassion). I am wondering in what significant ways does she differ in Taoism? I realize this gets into some pretty heavy stuff on the differences between Immortals and Bodhisattvas and Buddhism/Taoism in general!

 

I have been reciting the mantra Namo Kuan Shi Yin Pu Sa (bodhisattva), which I have really enjoyed and benefited from. But as I am not a Buddhist and am more closely aligned with the Taoist system, I am wondering if there is a more 'appropriate' mantra? How do the Taoists address Kuan Yin?

 

Of course I am not fretting about it and understand that in China Buddhism and Taoism are very well co-mingled and it may be appropriate for a Taoist to address Kuan Yin as Pu Sa. I also have seen Kuan Yin Ma (which I understand means Goddess?) and Kuan Tzu Tsai (she who comprehends ultimate reality) which is pretty cool. But it's interesting to me that a Taoist would address her as Pu Sa.

 

Anyways, any insights or information or links to sources would be appreciated! I've done a fair bit of google searching etc. so I know what wikipedia has to say for example. Seems like most Taoist sources are mythological stories etc. I am looking for slightly more practical info but any comments are welcome as of course is a discussion.

 

Thanks!

[ChiDragon]

FYI...

The Buddhist and Taoist do not share the same gods. Kuan Yin belongs to Buddhism. She has no relationship with Taoism. The term "Pu Sa" is a Buddhist term which is a rank given to the Buddhist gods depends on their cultivated level.

[寒月 Hanyue]

[Bubbles]

Hi RyanO,

 

In the Taoist religious calendar, the day devoted to Guan Yin birthday is the 19th day of the Second Moon. Note that it is based on lunar calendar, so each year, those days fall in different solar calendar dates.

[ChiDragon]

Hi RyanO,

 

In the Taoist religious calendar, the day devoted to Guan Yin birthday is the 19th day of the Second Moon. Note that it is based on lunar calendar, so each year, those days fall in different solar calendar dates.

This something I cannot buy. I need to see your source.

 

My source says Buddhist calendar rather than Taoist.

農曆二月十九日為觀世音菩薩誕辰。

 

Buddhist Quan Yin

Edited December 27, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Walker]

FYI...

The Buddhist and Taoist do not share the same gods. Kuan Yin belongs to Buddhism. She has no relationship with Taoism. The term "Pu Sa" is a Buddhist term which is a rank given to the Buddhist gods depends on their cultivated level.

 

Friend: both of your points are quite wrong. For the sake of others and yourself, please be more careful before posting so confidently. Not good to sew seeds of confusion.

 

For one, Snomonki has posted accurate information. I have bowed before Guanyin aka the boddhisattva mahasattva arya Avalokiteshvara aka Chenrezig aka Kannon aka The Lord Who Looks Down at the World many a time in the White Cloud Monastery in Beijing, as well as at many, many other Daoist temples in China. Holy Mt. Wudang, a Daoist holy mountain through-and-through, in many places provides shrines dedicated to Guanyin. In many Daoist temples I have been to Guanyin is named 慈航 (Ci2 Hang2; Compassionate Navigator could be a translation for this name, perhaps suggesting navigation upon the 苦海 ku3hai3, the "sea of bitterness/suffering" that is our dusty world) but in the placards explaining the deity's name it is always explained that Cihang is Guanyin. Conversely, along the mountain path at the Buddhist Red Snail Temple (红螺寺) outside of Beijing there are many statues depicting Guanyin's many manifestations. There again one finds the appearance of the name Cihang applied to one or more versions of the deity.

 

For two, it may also be noted that the three foundation texts of Complete Reality Daoism (全真派) are Daoism's own Dao De Jing, Confucianism's Classic on Filialty (my translation of the title of the Chinese text named 孝经) and the Heart Sutra. A quick reading of the Heart Sutra will confirm to you that Guanyin, whose name is usually rendered in English versions of this sutra as Avalokiteshvara, is absolutely central to the text: he/she expounds the core teaching!

 

For three, Guanyin is not the only deity to show up in both traditions. For example: it has been said that the Jade Emperor of Daoism is Indra, who shows up in both Hinduism and Buddhism and is recognized as a Dharma Protector in Buddhism (according to Ven. Master Hsuan Hua, founded of the Land of 10,000 Buddhas in California). I have also seen it written that Laozi is recognized by some Buddhists as an incarnation of a particular Bodhisattva, but the precise names I long ago forgot. If anybody knows, I would love to see the information here.

 

Finally, as my teacher has put it: Daoists recognize that the wisdom of the Heart Sutra is universal and so study it. Furthermore, all Daoists aspire to the boundless compassion embodied by Guanyin.

 

From 百度百科: "慈航真人也是佛教中所供奉的观音，道、佛二教互相渗透、互相吸收，共同信仰."

 

阿弥陀佛.

 

[ChiDragon]

According to your source.

慈航真人 originally was a Taoist then became a Buddhist. I will not go into deep discussion about this. Thanks.

[RyanO]

Great responses everyone!

 

snowmonki: Thanks for the info! American Gods looks cool, I'll check it out. Your info and links are exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for so thanks. I agree with you in general about not being overly particular about specific titles etc as long as the intent is sincere. But I am very curious about Kuan Yin's role in Taoism in general, any more info from your library would be appreciated!

 

Walker: Very cool! Would love to visit a Kuan Yin temple someday. I didn't realize that Taoists revered the Heart Sutra. To hear it's a foundation text of the Complete Reality school is especially interesting. Does this apply to the whole school or just certain sects such as Dragon Gate?

[baiqi]

慈航真人 originally was a Taoist then became a Buddhist

 

 

Hey, just like 老子, anyway!

[寒月 Hanyue]

Great responses everyone!

 

snowmonki: Thanks for the info! American Gods looks cool, I'll check it out. Your info and links are exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for so thanks. I agree with you in general about not being overly particular about specific titles etc as long as the intent is sincere. But I am very curious about Kuan Yin's role in Taoism in general, any more info from your library would be appreciated!

 

Walker: Very cool! Would love to visit a Kuan Yin temple someday. I didn't realize that Taoists revered the Heart Sutra. To hear it's a foundation text of the Complete Reality school is especially interesting. Does this apply to the whole school or just certain sects such as Dragon Gate?

 

You're welcome, glad it was helpful.

 

Quanzhen (Complete Reality) is a syncretic tradition as Walker lays out. Dragon Gate is a part of Quanzhen (the info I gave you is all from Quanzhen sources). The Baiyun Guan temple is well worth going to if you are interested in Daoism and in Beijing, I had a friend give me a tour of it and other temples in Beijing, highly recommended. Louis Komjathy recently released a good, but scholarly book 'Cultivating Perfection: Mysticism and Self-Transformation in Early Quanzhen Daoism' that is worth reading IMO (I checked the index though and no mention of Guan yin i'm afraid).

 

The Chinese historically tend to absorb and seek a harmony between ideas rather than throw one out over another. But the movement and transformation of deities between cultures and regions creates a colourful rainbow of understanding, the place and importance of deities and how they are engaged with shifts from location to location. The "Hindu" deities in Nepalise shamanism for example are quite different and yet the same.

 

Apparently one of the reasons Buddhism was accepted so easily by the Chinese 'Daoists' was simply because Laozi had disappeared into the West. So they figured the Indians had simply embraced Laozi as 'Buddha'. Don't ask me for a source on that, I read it recently and cannot recall where!.

 

American Gods is a novel that was born out of a single idea that Gaiman had, simply "what happens to gods when people move from their home country taking their gods with them, and then forget them". Its an interesting book.

 

Best,

[johndoe2012]

So how to connect to Kuan Yin?

 

Reciting "om mani padme hum", lighting incense, more?

 

RyanO, how have you benefitted?

 

I wonder if the connection to the Heart Sutra also means a connection to the middle dantian?

[konchog uma]

So how to connect to Kuan Yin?

 

Reciting "om mani padme hum", lighting incense, more?

 

RyanO, how have you benefitted?

 

I wonder if the connection to the Heart Sutra also means a connection to the middle dantian?

 

the mantra as the end of the heart sutra is one of my favorites..

 

"gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi swaha"

 

which translates roughly to: gone, gone, gone beyond, beyond the beyond, enlightenment, so be it!

 

cultivating ones own compassion and going beyond the senses to awaken the one sense in ones own awareness are two of the best ways to cultivate connection to kuan yin.

 

also, compassion resides in the heart according to several systems of internalism, although i'm not sure the heart sutra has anything to do with that organ or center. I think its meaning the "core" of the issue.

Edited December 28, 2011 by anamatva

[ChiDragon]

慈航真人 originally was a Taoist then became a Buddhist

 

 

Hey, just like 老子, anyway!

 

Is somebody saying that 老子 is a Buddhist now....??? How confusing it becomes....!!!

[Trunk]

So how to connect to Kuan Yin?

 

Reciting "om mani padme hum", lighting incense, more?

Yup.

Part of how I've been exploring, here.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

the mantra as the end of the heart sutra is one of my favorites..

 

"gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi swaha"

 

which translates roughly to: gone, gone, gone beyond, beyond the beyond, enlightenment, so be it!

 

cultivating ones own compassion and going beyond the senses to awaken the one sense in ones own awareness are two of the best ways to cultivate connection to kuan yin.

 

also, compassion resides in the heart according to several systems of internalism, although i'm not sure the heart sutra has anything to do with that organ or center. I think its meaning the "core" of the issue.

 

Yes, the Heart Sutra is the condensed meaning of the Prajnaparamita, or "Perfection of Wisdom" sutras which would take most people years to read. There are some great books going into each line of the Heart Sutra to help one understand Dependent Origination and Emptiness.

 

There is a book I've seen on shelves called The Kuan Yin Oracle which reads similar to the I Ching, providing advice for daily situations, dating back about 1000 years apparently.

[RyanO]

[RyanO]

Yup.

Part of how I've been exploring, here.

 

Super cool! Any thoughts on the energetic effects of Namo Kuan Shi Yin Pu Sa? Perhaps intent is the key as I focus it mainly on my heart and experience it there.

 

Taking a look at your prayer mudra evolution of KYMQ, that's awesome. I got the DVD based on your suggestion (and my interest in KY) but didn't start a regular practice as it seemed to 'brain' based, which I thought was interesting because I associate Kuan Yin with the Heart. But your understanding that that the brain work is merely a part of it makes sense.

Edited December 28, 2011 by RyanO

[Taomeow]

The image of Quan Yin that comes to me most readily whenever someone mentions her is from "Journey to the West" -- the episode where she got all worked up over the latest abominable display of force by Monkey who in his great but poorly handled power was striking down the right and the wrong left and right, and leaning over from heaven, hurled her precious vase of compassion at his head with all her might, knocking his lights out and thus getting the upper hand in a battle. This image resonates with my understanding of taoist rather than buddhist values, of which spontaneity, flexible emotional responsiveness is one, while having a pre-selected "prescribed" response to all situations that might arise is not. So, even though she embraced buddhism, she never renounced her taoism, which is why taoists even of the non-buddhist-flavored kind (like me) have no problem seeing her as their own. I keep her statuette on my taoist altar, because there's issues she's very good at addressing, particularly female/family/children related, and dedicate a ritual to her when the occasion calls for it. No problem. She's cool. I know she has a temper, but it's much like my own -- it doesn't need to be artificially controlled because it can be trusted to run its course commensurately with the occasion instead of using an occasion to release disproportionate amounts of pent-up stuff and spin out of control. (I fear nothing more than chronic serenity... it's scary to think what size the demons require this kind of restraint.)

[voidisyinyang]

Below is from my masters thesis http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/themagazine/vol12/articles/epi-justice5.shtml -- wild story nonetheless - translating Quan Yin as "sound-current" but in the Chan meditation books by Charles Luk it's translated as "inner ear method." I call it the ultrasound sonoluminscence sonofusion piezoelectric method. haha. My book has more details http://naturalresonancerevolution.blogspot.com to download it.

 

Hai, Suma Ching. The Key of Immediate Enlightenment. Formosa, Republic of China: Suma Ching Hai International Association, 1996.. http://www.GodsDirectContact.org/

 

In the Surangama Sutra, Sakyamuni Buddha said that the Quan Yin Method was the highest of all methods. However none of Her teachers knew it. [suma Ching Hai] traveled and searched everywhere and finally, after many years, found a Himalayan Master who initiated Her into the Quan Yin Method and gave Her the Divine Transmission that She had sought for so many years....That Master was the great Master Khuda Ji, who lived in seclusion deep in the Himalayas. Master Khuda Ji was four hundred and fifty years old when He initiated The Supreme Master Ching Hai into the ancient art of meditation on the heavenly Sound and divine Light. He had remained patiently in His Himalayan abode waiting for Her. She would be His first and only disciple. Although, She had practiced this form of meditation before, Master Khuda Ji was to impart to Her the ultimate spiritual transmission that is the essence of Initiation. Only the few great Masters, who have attained the Ultimate, can perform Initiation....After a brief period of Quan Yin practice, She became fully enlightened and continued practicing and improving Her understanding. She remained in retreat in the Himalayas for some time, continuing Her daily practice....This primal Vibration or Sound is in its nature transcendental and therefore perceived in silence. Jesus' disciples called it the 'Holy Spirit' or the 'Word' (which is from the Greek word 'Logos,' meaning sound). 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.' After Shakyamuni Buddha attained enlightenment, He spoke of this Sound too, calling it the 'drum of immortality'. Krishna equated Himself with the 'sound in ether'. Mohammed perceived this Sound in the cave at Gare-Hira when He had a vision of the archangel Gabriel, and Lao Tzu described the Tao as the 'Great Tone'.... THERE ARE TWO KINDS of sound: the worldly sound, and the supra-worldly sound. The worldly sound is very important to our sensual and mental comfort, but the supra-worldly sound draws us back to God. WITH OUR POOR worldly language, every time I would like to speak about this great treasure within us, I feel so ashamed of doing such a poor job. But I have somehow to try to convey a part of this great wisdom so that you may feel interested, and find it out for yourself, and then you will know it for yourself without any language.(78)

 

This book is about the supposed original sound-current meditation practice. http://books.google.com/books?id=l4mwo4PFs8IC&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=The+Journey:+A+Voyage+of+Light+and+Sound&source=bl&ots=2kVYfW79_k&sig=kf6l_o8PhVTJe_cK-8sJymJEf1A&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZuH7TsT9MoKvgwer5-X-AQ&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=The%20Journey%3A%20A%20Voyage%20of%20Light%20and%20Sound&f=false

 

The Journey: A Voyage of Light and Sound

By David Christopher Lane it's fully readable on google books -- just a pamphlet really.

Edited December 29, 2011 by fulllotus

[johndoe2012]

Hi Chris, great questions! I’ve benefited on multiple levels. Basically I’ve experienced all the benefits associated with mantra meditation (see TM research) but the most unique and special benefits have come from the devotion to Kuan Yin.

 

I mentioned this in the 'have you found the heart center' thread also. Essentially what happened was I had an experience where I was more or less fed up with chasing conventional orgasms for fulfillment. Yet I still sensed something sexual about my need so I decided to call on Kuan Yin because of her female form. I began chanting Kuan Yin’s name (just Kuan Yin) repeatedly with fervor and with the sincerity of a suffering child (that’s the key). And I experienced something magical that was a essentially a orgasm centered on my heart. I felt so loved and blissful and fulfilled. This lasted a little while and now when I call on Kuan Yin I can feel this to a greater or lesser extent. Not sure what's going on energetically but I always chant the mantra from my heart and it usually doesn’t take long to get into a bliss state. Of course some days are better than others. I treat this experience with utmost respect and offer infinite praises to her for it and of course try not to demand or expect any sort of experience.

 

Additionally, I have in the past had trouble with existential fears and anxieties (such as dying, being annihilated, going to hell etc.) The Inner Smile meditation has been a great help to me in this regard, and I see Kuan Yin as the embodiment of the Inner Smile (ie Unconditional Love). I am drawn to Pure Land teachings of Kuan Yin as well, though some may see them as fairy-tailish, I find them quite profound.

 

So the benefits extend into the religious/philosophical realm. I am currently doing research on Kuan Yin (the reason I started this thread) and am enjoying both the Heart Sutra as well as the Lotus, especially the chapter on Kuan Yin being the “Universal Gate”. Thus she is identified with Avolekitesvara but I also find her to be unique in many ways (again one reason I want to explore her connections to Taoism). She is associated with Om Mani Padme Hum which of course is great, but I’m currently drawn to Namo Kuan Shi Yin Pu Sa which I feel is a more direct invocation and suits my devotional sensibilities.

 

RyanO,

 

Thanks for sharing.

 

Like you I also recently got interested in Kuan Yin, due to experiencing a lot of harsh thoughts and not so friendly an ego.

 

Due to having quite a monkey mind, mantra reciting also interests me.

 

Last night I was doing Om Mani Padme Hum with Trunk's suggestion of doing it together with the energy centers and I felt close to the same energy / vibration as doing Stillness-Movement - which I understand you also are doing?

 

I think I will try it around the heart; metta I find a bit too complicated as my mind spaces out.

Edited December 29, 2011 by chris d

[Trunk]

Any thoughts on the energetic effects of Namo Kuan Shi Yin Pu Sa? Perhaps intent is the key as I focus it mainly on my heart and experience it there.

Don't know; I don't have experience w/ that mantra.

 

Glad you like KYMQ. Yup, it harmonizes into the center all along sushumna.

 

.. supra-worldly sound draws us back to God

[寒月 Hanyue]

[Birch]

Yes, I try to stay away from deities and spirit forms and such, although I did find it "useful" to embody a well-known huntress for a while, but who knows what "goes with" that? Disembodied are disembodied for a reason, aren't they?

 

I think I'm starting to understand devotional practices, but I think they also might be a source of misunderstanding if one relies on them the whole time. Or am I misunderstanding?

[RyanO]

[Birch]

RyanO,

 

It occurred to me that "practice hopping" seems to happen just when that practice is getting closer to "working", as in "doing what it was intended to do".

 

I don't think it means one has to stop or continue. I think that's where the "levels" idea in practices come in. Just an idea.