anyone doing Winn's sexual taichi?

[Yoda]

I just got the dvd, and flipped through it and it looks like amazing stuff and God knows I could use it, but I'm wondering if I really will *actually* carve out the time. Any words of inspiration?

[...]

no..never heard of it before.. but ohmy gosh it sounds good!!!

 

what exactly is it? =p sex AND tai chi omg how can that NOT be promising?

[Yoda]

When I have a chance to check it out more in depth, I'll give a review.

[Smile]

Why do you need it Yoda?

 

A simple kidney massage with your hands or twisting the torso will do just fine.

[thaddeus]

I just got the dvd, and flipped through it and it looks like amazing stuff and God knows I could use it, but I'm wondering if I really will *actually* carve out the time. Any words of inspiration?

What's the main idea of it?

[Ian]

Never even heard of it, dude. Maybe being the pioneer can be your motivation.

[ToP-fan]

I was just on Winn's site and couldn't find it..............Is it sold as one dvd or as a package?

[thelerner]

I think I bought it(on video cassette) two or three years ago at a tao mountain seminar. It was a longish form and I think I only used it once so I don't have a good feel for it.

 

I'll have to dig it up and watch it while I still have a cassette player.

 

I have Winns Healing chi gung video(renamed since?) which is very good in a kitchen sink kind of way. In that it hits so many facets of HT from sound, direction, color, organ its all in there. In one long form.

 

Michael

Edited October 18, 2006 by thelerner

[thaddeus]

I think I bought it(on video cassette) two or three years ago at a tao mountain seminar. It was a longish form and I think I only used it once so I don't have a good feel for it.

 

I'll have to dig it up and watch it while I still have a cassette player.

 

I have Winns Healing chi gung video(renamed since?) which is very good in a kitchen sink kind of way. In that it hits so many facets of HT from sound, direction, color, organ its all in there. In one long form.

 

Michael

He seems to be selling this enlightenment form that is better than all the others.

Does anybody actually believe there is something to a form..something you go to china, learn a form from some mysterious person, then come back, make a video of it and sell it. It's as simple as remembering a sequence of movements and that's it???

T

[thelerner]

A chi gung form is more then a dance or waving the hands around. Beyond the physicality, beyond the proper extension, there is an energetic movement within it. Winns video don't just show him doing a form. He explains the movement and energetics. There is an emotional content to it. Without knowing the energetics, you only know the surface of the form.

 

Sometimes they connect to you, sometimes they don't. Often you have to meet them half way, by steady practice before they click. I like the simple 5 movement form from Winns Fundamental II Video and the short Pangu form on another video. When you feel the energetics of them, its deep, moving meditation.

 

I should take the time to learn the primordial Chi gung routine. If I got seriously sick I would do the Long Healing Chigung daily. I think it would help.

 

I did Fusion with Masahiro, who was an incredible Taichi player and had great presence(didn't learn a lot of fusion, but his presence, the way he sat, stood, moved was impressive). Ron Diana died during that retreat and I had the chance to see Winn do his primodial chigung routine alone in the field.

 

I'd seen Masahiro practicing Tai chi alone earlier that morning. Winn couldn't match Masahiros grace or expertise, but there was transcendent power to his movement and focus that brought a sacred sense to it.

 

 

Michael

[Yoda]

What I got is the "Sexual Vitality Qigong" DVD only.

 

The Primordial is seriously good shit. It's not mystical how Winn got it... he just went to a seminar and learned it and realized its potential. He then met with the same teacher during one more class just to clarify a few points and to videotape the teacher. My copy is in the taobums library for anyone who wants it, but I haven't the foggiest idea who has it. Winn says that if he could only do one practice, this is it. So that says something. It's not "really" a taichi, and it can be picked up fine on all levels from just a dvd. It has powerful lineage energy. I think I figured out that I can best do this form very first thing or last thing of the day and it works for me. Even if it's not an everyday practice, it's cool to do in order to integrate the energy of a home, area, city, etc on occasion.

 

He had recently suggested doing the sexual vitality qigong and then chase it with primordial, and that's what got me interested in the Sex Qigong and to do it immediately prior to primordial. My thinking is that combining the two together like that can straighten out a few of my sexual wires as primordial unwinds energy deeper than you can usually do with most qigong forms per Winn.

 

Max, I do throw my kidneys a daily bone, but I'm always tinkering under the hood!

[freeform]

Does anybody actually believe there is something to a form..something you go to china, learn a form from some mysterious person, then come back, make a video of it and sell it. It's as simple as remembering a sequence of movements and that's it???

 

man, that's the funniest question I've heard you ask (and you ask a lot of funny questions!)... the answer to it is not so funny... Is a painting just a sequence of brush strokes putting paint on canvas? well - yes and no...

 

On the Galapagos islands many of the bird species have not had any predators for hundreds of thousands of years... Animal behaviour researchers made a kite in the shape of a hawk and flew it all over the island while observing the behaviour of the birds... most of the birds would hide in trees and under rocks...

Vilayanur Ramachandran, a world famous neurologist conducted a study where researchers would travel arround the world with two pictures - one has spikey, sharp shapes, the other has soft, round shapes... they would also say aloud two made up words "kaka" and "buba" and ask the people to choose which name went with which picture - 99.99% of people chose 'kaka' for the sharp picture and 'buba' for the soft picture... the study was conducted cross culturally with dozens of different nationalities and languages...

 

I remember reading about a study on learning and its correspondence to genetics... The researchers would take mice and put them through a maze - the ones that performed the best were bred together and the ones who performed the wors were bred together... so you had a 'stupid' group and a 'clever' group.... so the kept doing the maze and kept breeding stupid with stupid and clever with clever... their prediction was that the clever ones would get better at doing the maze (and they were right!) and that the stupid ones would get progressively worse and worse doing the maze - they were wrong... each of the 'stupid' generations got better at doing the maze...

 

so is 'kaka' just a sound? a hawk-shaped kite just a kite? and a stupid mouse just a stupid mouse?

 

I'm trying to illustrate that there is more to things that we do than we may think... At the same time I'm suggesting how some ritual like Tai Chi might work... and I'm also touching on the subject of 'lineage'...

[thaddeus]

man, that's the funniest question I've heard you ask (and you ask a lot of funny questions!)... the answer to it is not so funny... Is a painting just a sequence of brush strokes putting paint on canvas? well - yes and no...

 

<snip>

I'm trying to illustrate that there is more to things that we do than we may think... At the same time I'm suggesting how some ritual like Tai Chi might work... and I'm also touching on the subject of 'lineage'...

I get the energetic part. I just seriously question people who go learn a series of movements and then are suddenly 'experts' at it. If it were that easy we would all be doing it right now. Get up in the morning, wave your arms around, and have enlightenment and perfect health.

Thelerner, can you describe one of the energetics that winn provides in his taichi? I'm very interested to hear that.

I've been studying this stuff for alot of years, searching for the 'holy grail'. I haven't paid any attention to winn for two reasons..1. it's largely Chia stuff and 2. nobody reputable has ever endorsed what he's doing. So short of buying a video tape or dvd..can someone tell me something tangible..thanks

T

[thelerner]

Nothing too myserious about it. Take the simple form on Fundamentals II. It starts with Ocean Breathing, which I believe he says he got from Walter Beckley, who has a video series on this simple move alone.

 

In ocean breathing, I have a slight bend in my legs, both hands near my hara(belly button). As I breath in I straighten my body up and my hand float out to my side. I feel like I'm in waist deep water, being lifted by a wave. I imagine the water is peaceful energy, stretching to infinity. At the top when my in breath ceases, my hands & arms are stretched out to my side shoulder height and there is relaxation, I'm tilted a little back, relaxing on the wave.

 

As I breath out, the wave goes away. My body collapses back toward its original position, but water/energy recedes deep into my center, getting infinitely small, til the breath is gone and again there is a moment of relaxation.

 

Its pretty simple, but getting a sense of energetics, particularly the infinitely small was hard, though we had breathing techniques similar to it in Ki-Aikido.

 

Another movement from the form is right left balancing. Standing comfortably, legs shoulder length, hand relaxed at side. As you breath in, feel energy moving up your right leg and up your right side. As the energy moves, your hands 'cup' and energy ball and move it along your side at the same speed. You stop the energy ball (and hands) at your right shoulder and look at it.

 

Then the energy and your hands go down the right side as you breath out. Your look center the energy is center. Breath in, energy and cupped hands move up your left side, look left. Then back down, center and keep repeating.

 

Whether its energy or just firing off nerves receptors, you will feel something moving up and down the sides, right up to your brain. Soon your breathing will come from the nostril of the side you are working on and you gain consious control over which nostril you can breath through.

 

There is another movement in there called crossing the ocean which I find very helpful for my now infrequent back pain.

 

If you look at the movements without the energetics, they seem pointless, just waving your arms with no real stretching or effort. But beneath them is the gold.

 

I got a lot out of the form from the video, but also had an opportunity to practice it in a group with Winn. That also helped get a better deeper feeling for it. Though its a bonus and not completely neccesary for such simple forms.

 

Personally I think the question of how much is imagination and how much is energetics is a good one. Though at this point, I think its imagination is the horse leading the cart(energetics).

Michael

Edited October 19, 2006 by thelerner

[Pietro]

On the Galapagos islands many of the bird species have not had any predators for hundreds of thousands of years... Animal behaviour researchers made a kite in the shape of a hawk and flew it all over the island while observing the behaviour of the birds... most of the birds would hide in trees and under rocks...

 

I remember reading about a study on learning and its correspondence to genetics... The researchers would take mice and put them through a maze - the ones that performed the best were bred together and the ones who performed the wors were bred together... so you had a 'stupid' group and a 'clever' group.... so the kept doing the maze and kept breeding stupid with stupid and clever with clever... their prediction was that the clever ones would get better at doing the maze (and they were right!) and that the stupid ones would get progressively worse and worse doing the maze - they were wrong... each of the 'stupid' generations got better at doing the maze...

 

 

Wow, very interesting. Both studies. I understand you are somwhow linked to this kind of reasearch professionally or through the university. Can you give me the references for those two studies (the mice and the hawk)? I would like to read them to go a bit deeper.

 

Many thanks,

Pietro

[Yoda]

Thaddeus,

 

Primordial isn't from Chia, and the teacher who it comes from has a very pleasant aura about him-- he's on the dvd.

 

I'm not suggesting that you can mindlessly wave your arms around and get enlightened, but you can wave your arms around and experience a very unique and powerful energy flowing. When I do Primordial with in a distracted, mindless manner the practice is irritating. When I do it with just a hint of mindfulness, it is very nourishing. It's a totally different vibe from other cultivation practices that I have been exposed to, so it's an interesting animal. It has such a strong feel of lineage, that it's worth experimenting with imo.

 

Thelerner's second exercise posted above is one of the sexual qigong drills on the dvd, btw.

 

-Yoda

 

Pietro,

 

This month's Discover magazine has an amazing article on epigenetics and how by running mazes, the "dumb" rats may be changing(???) their genetic material. (!) There's some mention that by eating onions and garlic that this genetic manipulation can be enhanced. Which suddenly gives more credence to the claim of an herb to reverse aging, etc... that the expression of certain genes can be squelched or enhanced. Of course, nobody really knows jack about the situation... that's why God created Taobums.

 

Here's the wiki on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetic_inheritance

 

I'd respond to the wiki article that this insight does open the door to Lamarckist theory and I believe that in the years to follow will prove that Lamarck was right. The Discover article points out that Darwin was at least partially a Lamarckist too!

 

-Yoda

[freeform]

Wow, very interesting. Both studies. I understand you are somwhow linked to this kind of reasearch professionally or through the university. Can you give me the references for those two studies (the mice and the hawk)? I would like to read them to go a bit deeper.

 

Many thanks,

Pietro

 

Well I'm glad I'm coming accross as scientifically educated, but I'm not... ('interaction design' is my field) I am however interested in science in a layman sort of way, so I end up reading quite a few scientific publications (I used to much more than I do now)... From what I can remember the mice study was either in Scientific American or New Scientist magazine - I usually keep the interesting copies, so I'll sift through and see if I can find it.

 

One of my best friends is an evolitionary biologist and it was he who mentioned the galapagos study, so I'll enquire about the specific study.

 

Ramachandran's an interesting dude, his research on neurology has many applications (including psychology and interaction design). I went to a public lecture course organised by the BBC - he was one of the major speakers.

[Peregrino]

Wow Freeform--what a great "eggcorn" that word "evolitionary" is! (Not to be pedantic, but an "eggcorn" is a lexical formation that's just off from the consciously intended one, but still makes some kind of sense, e.g. "eggcorn" for "acorn." James Joyce and Robert Godwin of the "One Cosmos" blog are masters at that!)

 

So yes, volitionary evolution is the way to go, and it is precisely for the *evolitionary* wisdom found herein that I enjoy this site so much!

 

Please don't take my comment the wrong way, 'cause my typos are myriad . . . Seems to be a case in which you should "honor your mistake as a hidden intention!"

[Yoda]

I've had a chance to check out the drills. They are simply a misc collection of Winn's favs that he's run into and not an hour/day routine or anything, so that's good.

 

A couple of my favs are simply walking around in the kneeling position and the other is sitting on the ground with your legs out in front and spread apart comfortably. Then you lean forward and grab or slap your K1 points below the balls of the feet and drag your fingers along the insides of your legs as you lean back to vertical. You synchronize with the breathing, inhale while leaning forward. Those were cool.

 

Kidney and ear massages, and also lying on your back and move the toes "up and down" which jiggles the whole body. Very nice little practice ideas. Then it was kidney pumping that Thelerner detailed above, Cosmic swimming dragon and marriage of heaven and earth which is also on the fundamentals dvd.

 

Very simple stuff. I'll check it out.

 

-Yoda

[freeform]

Wow Freeform--what a great "eggcorn" that word "evolitionary" is! (Not to be pedantic, but an "eggcorn" is a lexical formation that's just off from the consciously intended one, but still makes some kind of sense, e.g. "eggcorn" for "acorn." James Joyce and Robert Godwin of the "One Cosmos" blog are masters at that!)

 

So yes, volitionary evolution is the way to go, and it is precisely for the *evolitionary* wisdom found herein that I enjoy this site so much!

 

Please don't take my comment the wrong way, 'cause my typos are myriad . . . Seems to be a case in which you should "honor your mistake as a hidden intention!"

 

lol Thanks for that, Peregrino... you just played a big part in a synchronisity! I've been coming up with Joycean style poetry with "eggcorn" type puns. I've been throwing them all away... because when I write down what came up in my head, I find more and more and more interconnections and puns and stuff... so I have to destroy the poem before it has a chance to damage my mind! I'll check that guy's blog out sounds cool!

 

anyway, thanks, you brightened up my day!

[thaddeus]

I got a lot out of the form from the video, but also had an opportunity to practice it in a group with Winn. That also helped get a better deeper feeling for it. Though its a bonus and not completely neccesary for such simple forms.

 

Personally I think the question of how much is imagination and how much is energetics is a good one. Though at this point, I think its imagination is the horse leading the cart(energetics).

Michael

Thanks for the write up. I think you said it best..imagination is the horse (mind) leading the cart (energetics or chi). Without that connection the movements are worseless.

Like I said before, however, I have studied this stuff for a long time. And you have too, so you'll understand where I'm coming from. For all these things, and the simple exercises are probably worse--one can't just learn it in a few weeks and then start teaching it. Some of these teachers say things like.."I went to china and met this crazy old monk who taught me this *form*, etc. etc." --you know the drill. The reality is that without long study and constant review, it's worse than junk. Every single time I learned even a simple exercise, like one of the brocades, for example, the next time I reviewed it, I realized there was either something I didn't understand correctly, something the teacher forgot, or something the teacher explained better given my level and practice.

So, I'm not really sure why people are following people who collect exercises like this with no cohesive underlying foundation. I would be even extra careful with the 'energetics' part. Careful is a strong word..I don't think there will be any harm other than wasted time.

I prefer a system that builds off of related components. Something like, 'i added ocean breathing I learned from Joe to the beginning of this sequence, cause I think it's a great idea' is suspect to me. Not that I'm a hardline traditionalist..it's something one of my teachers called 'chop suey'.

I liked the question you asked earlier..about what 3 things..my thought on that was..what's the 1 thing..and when I study in a system, I try to find out...what's the 1 thing here..what's the thing all these exercises are trying to get me to understand..I don't see that in the system we were discussing before..

anyway, hope that makes sense..

T

[freeform]

one can't just learn it in a few weeks and then start teaching it. Some of these teachers say things like.."I went to china and met this crazy old monk who taught me this *form*, etc. etc." --you know the drill. The reality is that without long study and constant review, it's worse than junk.

 

I do agree to a certain extent... but...

 

I dont know if you play golf or not... when I look at a golfer swing his club and hit the ball, I'm pretty impressed - it looks so smooth and he never misses the ball!... But lets say that a golf trainer who's been golfing and training for over 20 years looks at the same swing, he'd be seeing so much more than me, his awareness of the same thing would be worlds away, he'd notice all the tiny micromovements, the structure, the breathing etc... Or imagine the same scenario with martial arts instead... The martial arts instructor is aware of much much more than the layperson - and if another martial artist shows him a new move he will pick it up in a different way to say me who has no martial experience...

 

Winn's primordial tai chi is very simple... it is not a martial form... there is no specific alignment, posture, structure, tendon/facia lines etc. To me it resembles far more a Magick ritual than a traditional tai chi form... it's seremonial in nature and the movements and gestures and directions etc. are a kinesthetic representation of Taoist cosmology, it's all in there... Doing the form you're communicating with the universal chi using simple gestures and movements, the power comes from repeat practice, not from body alignment.

 

Regarding the 'chop suey' approach - I actually like it! This may be a flaw in me, but I believe it to be very pragmatic (and quite Taoist) to do what works and discard what doesn't... even if it means mixing different movements from different schools or completely different approaches... It is, ofcourse, very important that if one takes this 'chop suey' approach to be very attentive (both to yourself and the people/places/schools you learn from)... noticing how a single excersise and eventually a combination of excersises affects you internally is far more substantial and usefull then listening to masters laugh at you because you're not following their school and lineage...

[thaddeus]

I do agree to a certain extent... but...

i knew that would be coming..

 

Or imagine the same scenario with martial arts instead... The martial arts instructor is aware of much much more than the layperson - and if another martial artist shows him a new move he will pick it up in a different way to say me who has no martial experience...

Yeah, but..more often than not the person with the experience can get it wrong..'yeah, i know that, it's just like xyz' when it's not.

 

Regarding the 'chop suey' approach - I actually like it! This may be a flaw in me, but I believe it to be very pragmatic (and quite Taoist) to do what works and discard what doesn't... even if it means mixing different movements from different schools or completely different approaches... It is, ofcourse, very important that if one takes this 'chop suey' approach to be very attentive (both to yourself and the people/places/schools you learn from)... noticing how a single excersise and eventually a combination of excersises affects you internally is far more substantial and usefull then listening to masters laugh at you because you're not following their school and lineage...

Yeah, ultimately we are our own teachers. I believe the taoist approach is probably more of 'daily decrease' rather than adding more practices. I think adding a bunch of disassociated exercises is *probably* not productive in the long term. So in my post I said it's important to understand what is the core of training. There are thousands of chigung forms..what's the core thing that makes it all make sense. The choreography is irrelevant. That's why I wonder about all these new things that keep popping up from the same people with exaggerated claims of enlightenment and sexual prowress and youthful glowing health..

T

[freeform]

Yeah, but..more often than not the person with the experience can get it wrong..'yeah, i know that, it's just like xyz' when it's not.

 

That's what Winn said... the first time he learnt the form he thought 'oh hell, not another taichi interpretation' - he did it just to be polite to the master and left without thinking much about it... He says that later that day he felt a huge, powerfull opening in his heart and realised that the tai chi form was responsible... So he tracked him back down and learnt the form properly... This is an example of being aware and attentive on what effect something has on you - essential for us chop suey enthusiasts

 

Yeah, ultimately we are our own teachers. I believe the taoist approach is probably more of 'daily decrease' rather than adding more practices. I think adding a bunch of disassociated exercises is *probably* not productive in the long term.

 

You've mentioned the decrease thing before and I agree whole heartedly (without a 'but' this time ). Simplifying one's life is a worthy path and is required for any decent achievement. I just don't think that Taoism has the correct methodology to achieve this. What I get from Taoist practices is an ability to get in touch with my body deeply... I believe that to simplify our existence we need to firstly notice the patterns of behaviour that we 'do'. Then we have to start to loosen the patterns out, qi gong helps with this, but is not the full answer. Some people do emptiness practice as the answer - and it's fine... but like qi gong, imo, it's not the quickest, most elegant way of doing it... I've found two inter-compatible systems that achieve this quickly - one is through Zivorad Slavinski's work and the other through Jerry Stocking's work... Slavinski provides good techniques (I know it feels like 'adding' - but they're techniques that achieve emptying, and very easily and quickly) and Jerry goes in a different direction teaching how one can become more aware of their ego and how to silence it - like a pro-active Adyashanti.

 

If any of you get a chance to play with Jerry Stocking I couldn't recomend it more highly! And Slavinski's techniques are incredible - his Deep Peat technique is probably the quickest, most profound thing you can do (takes maximum 3 hours, can be done by phone)...

[thelerner]

Thank goodness for purists who do go deeply into each system. People like me, see the video a few times, like it, and do it for years without going back to the video. I'm sure my order and movements are widely diverging from the original form and will diverge more unless I take a class.

 

Thats not neccessarily bad, but if I teach it someone, there is a significant loss. In Taichi circles it would be near heresy. But the forms Michael teaches are relatively simple. Despite some tittles its not precise style Taichi. The energetics are more important then the exact mechanics. Matter of fact you can feel most of the effects doing them in your head.

 

 

Michael

 

P.S Posting a few new kids stories on my personal site here.