zeitgeist

[Aaron]

I'm not discussing "my beliefs" or "my truth",...a belief is a condition,...and if you try to bring those conditions into the Unconditional (the Heart-Mind), you will NEVER access Heart-Mind. That's Buddhism is a nutshell. Not the belief of Buddhism,...but the instruction of Buddhism that points to Heart-Mind.

 

Some Buddhists say,...if you see Buddha in your meditations, kill him. Buddha does not belong in your meditations. If you have any beliefs during your meditations, then your meditations are inadequate.

 

Experience born through belief, can ONLY be experienced through the condition of that belief.

 

You (Aaron) are assuming that because you have beliefs, that everyone must be speaking through their beliefs. With such a belief, you WILL NEVER experience the essence of Undivided Light. One must fully surrender,...surrender ALL their beliefs, before entering Heart-Mind.

 

The 6 senses cannot enter Heart-Mind. There are no beliefs beyond the 6 senses.

 

V

 

Hello V Marco,

 

I don't think you're listening to what I am saying, because I am saying the same thing you are saying, only I'm pointing out something that I see in you, that others probably do as well, that you are advocating your own beliefs, but then denying that you are doing that very thing. So my question is, do you believe that a person should give up all their beliefs? Do you believe that a person that believes in God is not an honest person? Do you believe that an honest person can not achieve the experience of undivided light?

 

I am agreeing with you, and apparently you missed it, except I say that the point is not to give up your beliefs, since you will always have beliefs, but rather that you must not, as you've pointed out, bring those beliefs into meditation. In meditation you must clear your mind of all beliefs in order to experience emptiness, undivided light, etc., because, if you don't do this, than as I've pointed out more times than I can count now, you're experiences during meditation will be colored by those experiences. If you go into meditation believing that you must follow certain practices in order to achieve a state of awareness of heart-mind, then by practicing those things, you are already predetermining what your experience will be.

 

So to recap, yes, one must give up all beliefs when one is seeking a awareness, even the belief that one must give up beliefs. During meditation one should practice to attain stillness and emptiness, free from all preconceptions. Without this freedom, inevitably your experience will be predetermined for you by your belief system.

 

I also think, that one should be aware that the chances one can live their life (outside of meditation) devoid of beliefs is impractical. So it's fine to be a Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, or whatever else one should aspire to be and I have no right to say otherwise, nor would I. When I talk about these things, I do so as suggestions and also make reference to my own experience regarding these things. There will be some that understand and accept it, others that understand and do not accept it, and others still who do not understand and don't accept it, that's fine, I'm not competing, so I don't have to argue with them. The only reason I pursue this topic with you is because I think we're on the same page in regards to many of your ideas, but we've come to our understanding through different means.

 

Also I rarely quote texts, simply because I haven't read that many, nor do I try to memorize them, rather I try to rely on my own experiences and understanding of the phenomena of duality, non-duality, and emptiness. I can also pick out, relatively quickly, those people who've come to their understanding intellectually and those who've come to it experientially.

 

I hope that makes sense.

 

Aaron

Edited December 31, 2011 by Twinner

[Vmarco]

Edited December 31, 2011 by Vmarco

[Aaron]

 

 

 

What makes sense is that I'm listening, but you're not hearing. I am not advocating beliefs. I must have said a hundred times, I'm bringing attention to that which steps between sentient beings and their direct experience.

 

Meditation should not be practice to bring about a belief in stillness, and especially should have nothing to do with emptiness. The realization of emptiness is simply a consequence of understanding Who's Who in Duality (something that Taoists have unfortunately humanized). Meditation, for those who are so ignorant that it necessatates meditation, should be about non-judgment and surrender. If you observe a thought, you "tag it",...oh, there's a thought, and go back to your focal point (breath, an object, etc).

 

According to Mahamudra, only ignorant people meditate. The goal is non-meditation. To grasp that, consider this non-Buddhist quote:

"We teach meditation, or quieting the mind, because it is really easier to teach you to have no thoughts, than to teach you to have pure, positive thought. We would rather you be in a state of appreciation, than in a state of meditation, because in appreciation you are a vibrational match to your Source" Esther Hicks.

 

No one can be a vibrational match to Source through belief. Thus, no Christian can ever be a vibrational match to Source. It is simplier than health lungs taking a breath. Why you (and others) have such a negative response about it what's really telling.

 

Try to grasp this relative truth,...Experience born through belief, can ONLY be experienced through the condition of that belief. How many people do you know, who have had a direct, unconditional experience? Do you really believe Settler or Simple_Jack have? What could you possibly be reading to suggest that?

 

Your thoughts and thinking are ignorant,...that's the nature of thoughts and thinking. To suggest that "the chances one can live their life devoid of beliefs is impractical" could only arise from a neurotic, cerebral-centric mind,...and eliminates you as a genuine Buddhist.

 

Nothing is more practical,...than being devoid of beliefs. Of course, that would be most upsetting for ego,...but who wants to cling to the unreal when they've realized the real?

 

"If truth was understood, ego would no longer be "needed" in the capacity it now enjoys." Sri Ram Kaa

 

You (Aaron) however, are tethered to ego.

 

Ma Amritananda said, "There was a cowherd boy who took his cows to the meadows every morning and brought them back to the cowshed at the end of the day. One evening, as he was tying the cows up for the night, the boy found that one of them was missing her rope. He feared that she might run away, but it was too late to go and buy a new rope. The boy didn't know what to do, so he went to a wise man who lived nearby and sought his advice. The wise man told the boy to pretend to tie the cow, and make sure that the cow saw him doing it. The boy did as the wise man suggested and pretended to tie the cow. The next morning, the boy discovered that the cow had remained still throughout the night. He untied all the cows as usual, and they all went outside. He was about to go to the meadows, when he noticed that the cow with the missing rope was still in the cowshed. She was standing on the same spot where she had been all night. He tried to coax her to join the herd, but she wouldn't budge. The boy was perplexed. He went back to the wise man, who said, "The cow still thinks that she is tied up. Go back and pretend to untie her." The boy did as he was told, and the cow happily left the cowshed. [Wisdom] helps untie that which was never bound. Like the cow, due to our ignorance, we believe that we are bound by the ego, when, in fact, we are completely free. We need to be convinced of this, however."

I'm not an advocate of Ma Amritananda,...I could care less who she is supposed to be,...or what she has supposedly done. The above quote has nothing to do with Ma Amritananda or her beliefs,...the quote is merely for the context of this post.

 

V

 

Hello V Marco,

 

You are an amazing man. You have no beliefs, yet you are able to get up every morning and do things, when obviously there should be no reason to do them, because there is no belief to initiate their need. That was sarcasm to illustrate a point. You claim to have no beliefs, but the fact is believing that one should not have beliefs is a belief. As a result I grasp your relative truth and see it as not being such.

 

I guess that's all I have to say. Now if you ever exhibit a degree of detachment and compassion, that illustrates to me that you've achieved enlightenment, then I will have to change my mind regarding this, but right now all I see is absolutism being presented as detached observation. There are no absolutes, you should know that. The fact that it is incapable for one to exist within duality without beliefs is a realization that seems quite simple to understand. The fact that you miss my point tells me we're at an impasse.

 

As for everyone else, go on believing whatever you want to, it really doesn't matter. If you are meant to become enlightened, you will, and if you aren't, then you wont. If you decide to be anything, strive to be like a child, then you'll see how pointless this all is anyways.

 

 

Aaron

Edited December 31, 2011 by Twinner

[Vmarco]

Hello V Marco,

 

You are an amazing man. You have no beliefs, yet you are able to get up every morning and do things...

 

I guess that's all I have to say. Now if you ever exhibit a degree of detachment and compassion...

 

If you are meant to become enlightened, you will, and if you aren't, then you wont.

 

If you decide to be anything, strive to be like a child, then you'll see how pointless this all is anyways.

 

Aaron

 

1. Actually,...the less beliefs one has, the more productive, engaging, and real their day is. As in the quote above,...you tethered yourself to ego and 6 sense reasoning, and yet there is no rope.

 

2. You have shown in your posts to have no understanding of compassion,...so way do you use the word as if you did?

"Buddhist teachings on compassion are grounded in the direct realization of Emptiness; without which, compassion is impossible." Robert Thurman

 

3. Are you suggesting that some outside force determines who can awaken, and who can not? Kind of like American politics,...the one elected is chosen by outside media-tion. Or, perhaps one needs to be born under a Pisces Moon?

 

4. Please don't strive to be a child. That's a practice of belief. Simply let go of beliefs. As a 1st Century Gnostic text said,..."when you can disrobe without being ashamed and take up your garments (beliefs) and place them under your feet like little child and tread on them, then you will no longer be afraid".

 

Be naked, Buddhism suggests,...uncover your Unborn Awareness,...the awareness you had before being indoctrinated with beliefs. Such a child knows no god.

 

V

Edited December 31, 2011 by Vmarco

[Marblehead]

Be naked, ...

 

Yeah, let's all get naked!!!

[Aaron]

1. Actually,...the less beliefs one has, the more productive, engaging, and real their day is. As in the quote above,...you tethered yourself to ego and 6 sense reasoning, and yet there is no rope.

 

2. You have shown in your posts to have no understanding of compassion,...so way do you use the word as if you did?

"Buddhist teachings on compassion are grounded in the direct realization of Emptiness; without which, compassion is impossible." Robert Thurman

 

3. Are you suggesting that some outside force determines who can awaken, and who can not? Kind of like American politics,...the one elected is chosen by outside media-tion. Or, perhaps one needs to be born under a Pisces Moon?

 

4. Please don't strive to be a child. That's a practice of belief. Simply let go of beliefs. As a 1st Century Gnostic text said,..."when you can disrobe without being ashamed and take up your garments (beliefs) and place them under your feet like little child and tread on them, then you will no longer be afraid".

 

Be naked, Buddhism suggests,...uncover your Unborn Awareness,...the awareness you had before being indoctrinated with beliefs. Such a child knows no god.

 

V

 

Ahh... V, that's why I like you, even in the face of adversity you still stick by your guns. (That's a joke by the way). Anyways I think we both know that we'll never convince the other of what we believe or don't believe... well you know what I mean. I'm too ingrained in dualism for that, so lets end this conversation with a handshake and a Happy New Years.

 

Aaron

 

 

edit- Also, I've tried the naked thing when I take a shower and it doesn't seem to help. Am I doing something wrong?

Edited January 1, 2012 by Twinner

[Informer]

I think the best way we can all get started now to move towards a sustainable community is by starting to collect solar panels. If you figure you have 20 people all bring 1 kilowatt of solar to the table you would have a 20 kilowatt system. Seems like a solid foundation tbh.

[Informer]

Then I would vote to sell all our personal combustion engines to buy electric cars that we can all use.

 

If there are 20 cars each worth 2 grand then that would be $40,000.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Informer

[strawdog65]

Rather than a bunch of ego play....how about discussing the thread?

 

Wasn't this supposed to be about Zeitgeist?

 

 

Happy New Year!

[Informer]

Maybe I jumped way ahead of you, did you watch zietgeist moving forward ?

 

 

 

try starting it at 1:48:00

 

The way to begin is by collecting clean energy supply.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Informer

[settler]

Wasn't this supposed to be about Zeitgeist?

 

Ya, but Zeitgeist speak of religious beliefs, this discussion is rooted in Zeitgeist point of view.

 

Loving your self is a form of applying love, when you care about beautiful and ugly you avoid using your love. Its the mind attempting to change instead of attempting to love. You can love your partner flaws or you can attempt to change them.

 

Mantak Chia was more spiritual energetic point of view: "avoid projecting energy in to others to compact it".

 

One time i meet a person who said was enlightened. He use hes own teaching: "Integrate your self, all the mind pieces back in to unity".

 

Integrate, love or no project same thing in different points of views. I'm more in to love my self, it's how i understand.

 

When you think for your self, you will be much closer to it. You are much more connected to your self that if you copy others.