Can someone tell me the names of Qigong masters in America?

[Lao Tzu]

I am new, so I want to gather some information.

Thanks in advance.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Lao Tzu

[orb]

I am new, so I want to gather some information.

Thanks in advance.

 

 

David Verdessi,

Max Christensen

Mak Tin Si

[Lao Tzu]

David Verdessi,

Max Christensen

Mak Tin Si

Thanks, and who is the most famous one?

[thelerner]

Thanks, and who is the most famous one?

Beware, fame often doesn't equal most talented. Its more a measure of advertising skill.

 

I've personally done a weekend training with Max Christenson. He's pretty amazing, but in many ways an unconventional teacher, lots of crazy wisdom, along with lots of 'juice'..or what I'd call high voltage inner power.

[Lao Tzu]

Beware, fame often doesn't equal most talented. Its more a measure of advertising skill.

 

You are absolutely right here.

 

I just want to be aware of some famous Qigong teachers in west, in order to see what they look like.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Lao Tzu

[henro]

interesting that the 3 people listed above are surrounded by controversy

 

 

I guess one would have to define "master". . . .

Edited December 30, 2011 by robmix

[Lao Tzu]

surrounded by controversy.

 

That is normal.

[Protector]

 

Mak Tin Si

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ahem

 

 

 

but seriously, Grandmaster Jiang Jing Sung Baek

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Voila:

 

http://www.daoistcenter.org/teachers.pdf

 

 

awesome resources at daoistcenter.org

[Wells]

I am new, so I want to gather some information.

Thanks in advance.

What is your definition of "Qigong master"?

What abilities should he have in your opinion?

[The Way Is Virtue]

I think someone was actually trying to pull your leg regarding those three. Don't expect to get any kind of definitive answer here or anywhere else on such questions. The reality is such things are just anyone's own personal judgement call. You could have several people recommend one person, and then have several others telling you to avoid the same person. I have even seen people recommending certain people as 'masters' and such when as near as I can tell they have actually not even met the said 'master' or spent any real time learning from them. I would also caution you that just because someone teaches some practice or practices that may be beneficial, it doesn't make that person a master. There are lots of practices that are available through books and videos which anyone can pick up and start teaching, and the practices may be beneficial, but any benefit you get from the practices is coming from the practices and has little to do with the teacher.

 

Some teachers mix and match various practices and combine them in different ways in whatever way they feel like, and some make up their own practices as well, and then may represent these practices as some old system that was passed on to them. Now this could be valid if someone really knows what they are doing, but how can one assess if this person really does know what they are doing? In the case where some teachers misrepresent what they are teaching as being some esoteric system that was passed on to them when in reality it is just a mixture of various things that they picked up here and there or made up, it can sometimes be very hard to determine what the real source of the practices are. So it always comes down to each person's own personal judgement call, IMO.

 

I know for certain that there are so called 'masters' out there who have a large following of students who will insist that their 'master' is the greatest master ever, and that only their master is teaching true authentic teachings which are so much superior to everything else out there, etc., etc. However, I have met some of these 'great masters/teachers' and some of them seem to me to be pretty mediocre, or self deluded or outright frauds, or otherwise mentally imbalanced in some ways, although some of these may have some actual qigong or martial arts ability. Don't mistake someone having some qigong or healing ability necessarily being a high level sprititual master or something like that. Really, just about anyone should be able to learn qigong and qigong applications such as in martial arts or healing if they practice a half decent method diligently for several years. However to achieve a level of qigong ability to be able to improve one's own health, or even to help in healing others, or to increase martial arts ability does not require any particular high level of spiritual cultivation, based on what I have seen. Don't be fooled by this sort of hype from well meaning students or others. Often people are just putting voice to what they would like to think or believe, but in actuality they have no real sound basis for what they are claiming. Of course, some teachers may really be exceptional and the students praise is warranted, but it can be hard to tell the difference without meeting the various teachers and spending some real time with them to get a better feel for them. After a while a person starts getting a better feel for who is probably a real accomplished teacher and who isn't.

 

As one example of how this whole thing can be quite the can of worms, Max Christensen, who was mentioned above by someone else, teaches a practice he calls 'kunlun nei gung', and several years ago out of curiousity I read his book on this practice, and at the time he seemed to be presenting this system as some rare esoteric system that he learned from somewhere which was called 'kunlun nei gung'. (I wasn't very impressed with the book, BTW). Later I heard others saying that Max Christensen actually learned the basis of some of this practice from a local teacher named Jenny Lamb who teaches some related qigong practices. Now I see that Max Christensen has added some info on his website which says that Kunlun is actually just a name that Max made up to describe some practices that he actually learned from various teachers, and that supposedly these various teachers have agreed that calling these various practices which Max teaches as 'Kunlun' is a good name for them. ( http://www.primordialalchemist.com/kunlun-neigung/). Now, I can only speak for myself, but that sure sounds more than a little questionable to me. The strange thing is some people seem to be aware of these sort of strange shenanigans that their particular teachers have been up to and just shrug it off or rationalize it away, and say they had some good or interesting results with such and such a practice taught by this teacher so they still think they are a good teacher. Personally I would not be too interested in learning from any teacher who can't clearly explain the exact source of what they are teaching and exactly where they learned it and exactly who they learned it from, etc. If their story is changing over time, that is a pretty good warning sign that something is not quite right. From what I have seen, there are other teachers who make questionable statements about what they are teaching, or they seem to be very intentionally vague about such things, and may get quite irritated if someone asks for more info about such things. I know of one other teacher who charges quite a lot for his classes and DVD's, and someone who knew this person years ago says that this person was practicing something quite different before they came to America, and it seems that the teacher made up their own system and the history of what they learned, and set themself up as a master of this made up system once they came to America. It would be hard for someone to confirm such things many years later, but IMO it is a good idea to keep in mind that this sort of thing does seem to happen sometimes. It is no easy matter to find a good teacher, but it really does come down to doing research where possible and understanding that various recommendations and claims could potentially be well off the mark.

 

All that being said, I have met and learned from teachers who were able to pass on valuable things to me, and who did seem to be quite accomplished in at least some of the practices they taught. There are many lessons to learn and we don't necessarily need a high level master, whatever that may be, to learn these various lessons, IMO. Life has a way of bringing us face to face with ourself no matter which way we turn and no matter what we think.

Edited December 29, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Lao Tzu]

What is your definition of "Qigong master"?

What abilities should he have in your opinion?

I prefer use western definition for discuss about "Qigong master".

Actually, I don't expect that there is a real Qigong master in the world.

[ChiDragon]

Beware, fame often doesn't equal most talented. Its more a measure of advertising skill.

 

I think most people believed to learn it from the famous rather from the talented.

[Lao Tzu]

I think someone was actually trying to pull your leg regarding those three. Don't expect to get any kind of definitive answer here or anywhere else on such questions. The reality is such things are just anyone's own personal judgement call. You could have several people recommend one person, and then have several others telling you to avoid the same person. I have even seen people recommending certain people as 'masters' and such when as near as I can tell they have actually not even met the said 'master' or spent any real time learning from them. I would also caution you that just because someone teaches some practice or practices that may be beneficial, it doesn't make that person a master. There are lots of practices that are available through books and videos which anyone can pick up and start teaching, and the practices may be beneficial, but any benefit you get from the practices is coming from the practices and has little to do with the teacher.

 

Some teachers mix and match various practices and combine them in different ways in whatever way they feel like, and some make up their own practices as well, and then may represent these practices as some old system that was passed on to them. Now this could be valid if someone really knows what they are doing, but how can one assess if this person really does know what they are doing? In the case where some teachers misrepresent what they are teaching as being some esoteric system that was passed on to them when in reality it is just a mixture of various things that they picked up here and there or made up, it can sometimes be very hard to determine what the real source of the practices are. So it always comes down to each person's own personal judgement call, IMO.

 

I know for certain that there are so called 'masters' out there who have a large following of students who will insist that their 'master' is the greatest master ever, and that only their master is teaching true authentic teachings which are so much superior to everything else out there, etc., etc. However, I have met some of these 'great masters/teachers' and some of them seem to me to be pretty mediocre, or self deluded or outright frauds, or otherwise mentally imbalanced in some ways, although some of these may have some actual qigong or martial arts ability. Don't mistake someone having some qigong or healing ability necessarily being a high level sprititual master or something like that. Really, just about anyone should be able to learn qigong and qigong applications such as in martial arts or healing if they practice a half decent method diligently for several years. However to achieve a level of qigong ability to be able to improve one's own health, or even to help in healing others, or to increase martial arts ability does not require any particular high level of spiritual cultivation, based on what I have seen. Don't be fooled by this sort of hype from well meaning students or others. Often people are just putting voice to what they would like to think or believe, but in actuality they have no real sound basis for what they are claiming. Of course, some teachers may really be exceptional and the students praise is warranted, but it can be hard to tell the difference without meeting the various teachers and spending some real time with them to get a better feel for them. After a while a person starts getting a better feel for who is probably a real accomplished teacher and who isn't.

 

As one example of how this whole thing can be quite the can of worms, Max Christensen, who was mentioned above by someone else, teaches a practice he calls 'kunlun nei gung', and several years ago out of curiousity I read his book on this practice, and at the time he seemed to be presenting this system as some rare esoteric system that he learned from somewhere which was called 'kunlun nei gung'. (I wasn't very impressed with the book, BTW). Later I heard others saying that Max Christensen actually learned the basis of some of this practice from a local teacher named Jenny Lamb who teaches some related qigong practices. Now I see that Max Christensen has added some info on his website which says that Kunlun is actually just a name that Max made up to describe some practices that he actually learned from various teachers, and that supposedly these various teachers have agreed that calling these various practices which Max teaches as 'Kunlun' is a good name for them. ( http://www.primordialalchemist.com/kunlun-neigung/). Now, I can only speak for myself, but that sure sounds more than a little questionable to me. The strange thing is some people seem to be aware of these sort of strange shenanigans that their particular teachers have been up to and just shrug it off or rationalize it away, and say they had some fgood or interesting results with such and such a practice taught by this teacher so they still think they are a good teacher. Personally I would not be too interested in learning from any teacher who can't clearly explain the exact source of what they are teaching and exactly where they learned it and exactly who they learned it from, etc. If their story is changing over time, that is a pretty good warning sign that something is not quite right. From what I have seen, there are other teachers who make questionable statements about what they are teaching, or they seem to be very intentionally vague about such things, and may get quite irritated if someone asks for more info about such things. I know of one other teacher who charges quite a lot for his classes and DVD's, and someone who knew this person years ago says that this person was practicing something quite different before they came to America, and it seems that the teacher made up their own system and the history of what they learned, and set themself up as a master of this made up system once they came to America. It would be hard for someone to confirm such things many years later, but IMO it is a good idea to keep in mind that this sort of thing does seem to happen sometimes. It is no easy matter to find a good teacher, but it really does come down to doing research where possible and understanding that various recommendations and claims could potentially be off the mark.

Thank you for your text here.

Yes, I think the best way for practice is not to learn from any teacher, but learn from books which were written by immortals.

[ChiDragon]

Thank you for your text here.

Yes, I think the best way for practice is not to learn from any teacher, but learn from books which were written by immortals.

hm....

Did you say learn it from BOOKS.....be careful.....!!!

 

 

Edited to add:

@ The Way is Virtue

Well said......

Edited December 29, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Lao Tzu]

In my opinion, any of the modern teacher is teaching mainly for money.

[Lao Tzu]

hm....

Did you say learn it from BOOKS.....be careful.....!!!

If you learn from a teacher, be more careful...!!!!

[Aetherous]

Yes, I think the best way for practice is not to learn from any teacher, but learn from books which were written by immortals.

 

Yes, I prefer to combine both. But I often find that what I've learned from teachers far surpasses any book knowledge. A lot of what was written was very cryptic...so it's nice to have the real thing, to compare with the books.

[Lao Tzu]

Yes, I prefer to combine both. But I often find that what I've learned from teachers far surpasses any book knowledge. A lot of what was written was very cryptic...so it's nice to have the real thing, to compare with the books.

The books you read are original chinese ones or translated ones?

The instruction of a teacher is more clear, but probably is not a right way for practice. Because probably the teachers can not understand the cryptic stuff.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Yes, I think the best way for practice is not to learn from any teacher, but learn from books which were written by immortals.

 

Some practices by their very nature simply can't be passed on through books or videos. You can learn some basic practices from books, but I think there are practices that do need to be learned from teachers. We can be deceived and mislead by others, but no one deceives us and misleads us more than ourself, IMO. A good teacher can help keep a person on track with the teacher's experience and perception, which they gained from long practice and also through the assistance and guidance of their own teacher. It is easy to make broad sweeping statements but I personally do think there are practices that can and should only be learned from a teacher. However, from my own experience, what we may think we are ready to learn at any given time may be quite different from where we really are as a person, and life seems to inevitably bring us face to face with our self and facilitates us learning what we really need to learn, despite anything we may think. I can't prove that of course, but it often sure seems that way.

Edited December 29, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[Aetherous]

The books you read are original chinese ones or translated ones?

The instruction of a teacher is more clear, but probably is not a right way for practice. Because probably the teachers can not understand the cryptic stuff.

 

Translated ones.

 

I disagree. When you already have the right way, from a teacher, then the cryptic stuff becomes easier to understand. Especially if you read multiple books on the subject to compare.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Scotty

[The Way Is Virtue]

In my opinion, any of the modern teacher is teaching mainly for money.

Well, not all of them are.

Edited December 29, 2011 by The Way Is Virtue

[C T]

I find it quite funny that in the land of the free Chigung can be quite an expensive practice to acquire.

 

Most of the 'famed' so-called masters pay very careful, detailed attention to mould their credentials - understandably so, since their motive is to ride the money-train while the coals are still smoldering !!

 

In Asia, the approach is very direct and simple. Lots of groups practice in parks, athletic fields, even rooftops of apartment buildings, and anyone is welcomed to participate, learn and share progress. Very informal relationships are formed between teacher and students, and there are no 'catches' anywhere. Best of all, its free!

 

I guess different mindsets expect different things, so i guess the western masters cannot be held to account for demanding steep fees since those that seek them out almost expect to pay enough, and then some, almost as if the idea is that the more they pay the more benefits can be accrued.

 

Boggles the mind sometimes.

[ChiDragon]

If you learn from a teacher, be more careful...!!!!

 

Really...??? Some of the members here don't think so....

[johndoe2012]

I find it quite funny that in the land of the free Chigung can be quite an expensive practice to acquire.

 

How is it with Tibetan energy practises? Are the teachers also charging for classes?

 

Personally I can understand why some teachers are criticised; though I also find that many students also project their own faults on to the teacher.

 

In the West expenses are also much higher than in Asia. Just wait and see, in 30-50 years you will probably have the same situation as in the West, when you have "free" health care and pension benefits and so on.