Chuang Tzu Chapter 6, Section B

[Marblehead]

Section B

 

What is meant by 'the True Man?' The True men of old did not reject (the views of) the few; they did not seek to accomplish (their ends) like heroes (before others); they did not lay plans to attain those ends. Being such, though they might make mistakes, they had no occasion for repentance; though they might succeed, they had no self-complacency. Being such, they could ascend the loftiest heights without fear; they could pass through water without being made wet by it; they could go into fire without being burnt; so it was that by their knowledge they ascended to and reached the Dao.

 

The True men of old did not dream when they slept, had no anxiety when they awoke, and did not care that their food should be pleasant. Their breathing came deep and silently. The breathing of the true man comes (even) from his heels, while men generally breathe (only) from their throats. When men are defeated in argument, their words come from their gullets as if they were vomiting. Where lusts and desires are deep, the springs of the Heavenly are shallow.

 

The True men of old knew nothing of the love of life or of the hatred of death. Entrance into life occasioned them no joy; the exit from it awakened no resistance. Composedly they went and came. They did not forget what their beginning had been, and they did not inquire into what their end would be. They accepted (their life) and rejoiced in it; they forgot (all fear of death), and returned (to their state before life). Thus there was in them what is called the want of any mind to resist the Dao, and of all attempts by means of the Human to assist the Heavenly. Such were they who are called the True men. Being such, their minds were free from all thought; their demeanour was still and unmoved; their foreheads beamed simplicity. Whatever coldness came from them was like that of autumn; whatever warmth came from them was like that of spring. Their joy and anger assimilated to what we see in the four seasons. They did in regard to all things what was suitable, and no one could know how far their action would go. Therefore the sagely man might, in his conduct of war, destroy a state without losing the hearts of the people; his benefits and favours might extend to a myriad generations without his being a lover of men. Hence he who tries to share his joys with others is not a sagely man; he who manifests affection is not benevolent; he who observes times and seasons (to regulate his conduct) is not a man of wisdom; he to whom profit and injury are not the same is not a superior man; he who acts for the sake of the name of doing so, and loses his (proper) self is not the (right) scholar; and he who throws away his person in a way which is not the true (way) cannot command the service of others. Such men as Hu Bu-jie, Wu Guang, Bo-yi, Shu-Qi, the count of Ji, Xu-yu, Ji Ta, and Shen-tu Di, all did service for other men, and sought to secure for them what they desired, not seeking their own pleasure.

 

The True men of old presented the aspect of judging others aright, but without being partisans; of feeling their own insufficiency, but being without flattery or cringing. Their peculiarities were natural to them, but they were not obstinately attached to them; their humility was evident, but there was nothing of unreality or display about it. Their placidity and satisfaction had the appearance of joy; their every movement seemed to be a necessity to them. Their accumulated attractiveness drew men's looks to them; their blandness fixed men's attachment to their virtue. They seemed to accommodate themselves to the (manners of their age), but with a certain severity; their haughty indifference was beyond its control. Unceasing seemed their endeavours to keep (their mouths) shut; when they looked down, they had forgotten what they wished to say. They considered punishments to be the substance (of government, and they never incurred it); ceremonies to be its supporting wings (and they always observed them); wisdom (to indicate) the time (for action, and they always selected it); and virtue to be accordance (with others), and they were all-accordant. Considering punishments to be the substance (of government), yet their generosity appeared in the (manner of their) infliction of death. Considering ceremonies to be its supporting wings, they pursued by means of them their course in the world. Considering wisdom to indicate the time (for action), they felt it necessary to employ it in (the direction of) affairs. Considering virtue to be accordance (with others), they sought to ascend its height along with all who had feet (to climb it). (Such were they), and yet men really thought that they did what they did by earnest effort. In this way they were one and the same in all their likings and dislikings. Where they liked, they were the same; where they did not like, they were the same. In the former case where they liked, they were fellow-workers with the Heavenly (in them); in the latter where they disliked, they were co-workers with the Human in them. The one of these elements (in their nature) did not overcome the other. Such were those who are called the True men.

[XieJia]

true, very true, ever so true.

 

where could falseness arise?

[konchog uma]

Mr Mair puts all that in Section 6 Chapter 1, so i made a mistake and posted it all under what Legge calls Chapter 6 Section A. I will repost it here. Sorry for the confusion!

 

from Wandering on the Way: Taoist Tales and Parables

by Victor Mair

 

To know the actions of heaven and to know the actions of man,

that's the ultimate! She who knows the actions of heaven will live

in accordance with heaven. She who knows the actions of men

can nourish what is unknown to her intellect with what is known

to her intellect. Thus she can live out the years allotted to her by

heaven and not die midway. This is the height of knowledge.

 

However, there is still some difficulty. Namely, knowledge

has to depend on something for its consequent accuracy, but

that which it depends on is particularly unstable. How do we

know that what we attribute to heaven may not be due to man,

and that what we attribute to man may not be due to heaven?

Only when there is a true man is there true knowledge.

 

What is a true man? The true man of old did not oppose the

minority, did not strive for heroic accomplishments, and did not

scheme over affairs. Such being the case, he did not regret it

when he made a mistake nor feel smug when he was right. Such

being the case, he could climb high without trembling, enter

water without getting soaked, and enter fire without feeling hot.

Only one whose knowledge can ascend the heights of the Way

can be like this.

 

The true man of old did not dream when he slept and did

not worry when he was awake. His food was not savory, his

breathing was deep. The breathing of the true man is from his

heels, the breathing of the common man is from his throat. The

words of those who unwillingly yield catch in their throats as

though they were retching. Those whose desires are deep-seated

will have shallow natural reserves.

 

The true man of old knew neither fondness for life nor

aversion to death, was neither elated by going forth nor reluctant

to return. Casually he went and casually he came. He neither

forgot what his beginning had been nor sought what his end

would be. Happily he received and forgetfully he returned. This

is what is meant by not detracting from the Way with the mind,

not assisting heaven with the human. This is what we call a true

man.

 

Such being the case, his mind was forgetful, his visage calm,

his forehead beamingly broad. Austere as autumn, warm as

spring, his joy and anger were in touch with the four seasons. He

was compatible with all things but no one knew his limits

 

The true man of old

Was towering in stature but never collapsed,

Seemed insufficient but accepted nothing;

Aloofly independent but not obstinate,

Amply empty but not ostentatious ,

Merry, as though he were happy,

Demurring, as though he were compelled,

Suffused with an alluring charm,

Endowed with an arresting integrity,

Stern, as though he were worldly,

Arrogant, as though he were uncontrollable,

Reticent, as though he preferred to clam up,

Absent-minded, as though he forgot what to say.

 

Thus his likes were reduced to one and his dislikes were also

reduced to one. His "one" was one and his "not one" was also

one. Being "one," he was a follower of heaven. Being "not one" he

was a follower of man. He in whom neither heaven nor man is

victorious over the other is called a true man.

[Aaron]

Real quick, is the true man something someone can become or something we are supposed to aspire to? For me this is much like the idea of "Christlike" in Christianity or "Buddha" in Buddhism. It just doesn't seem to be something someone can attain, or at best could only attain temporarily. I think the fact that "the True Man of old" is the way that it's described seems to infer that there were no more True Men alive at that time, Chuang Tzu included. I'd be interested in hearing other people's opinions.

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

I'd be interested in hearing other people's opinions.

 

Aaron

 

The person who always comes to my mind regarding this question is Mother Teresa.

 

Even though near the end of her life she admitted that she had doubts she did live her life as a servant of her belief and of the people she served. She never strayed from trying to help others and to make a difference in the life of those she served. A truely selfless person, I would say.

 

And there is no doubt in my mind that there are many others much like her that we never hear about.

 

But, as suggested in "Section D", not all have the abilities of the Sage, "The True Man", and yet are able to walk the Way of Tao.

 

Then too, perhaps "The True Man" is just an ideal and it really isn't expected that many, if any, will attain such a state of being.

 

However, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. (I had to say that because experiences in my personal life have taken me a bit off the Path and I need to get my ass back on it. Hehehe.)

[konchog uma]

i also feel there is a lot of idealism surrounding the concept of "true people of old"

 

then again, maybe it is really the accomplishment of the ancients to live in such a way.

 

I agree though that few people today can attain that state. I don't remember being alive "of old" so i can't say much beyond that.

[ChiDragon]

--- Work in Progress Alert ---

 

2. 第二部分至“而比于列星”，从描写“真人”逐步转为述说“道”，只有“真人”才能体察“道”，而“道”是“无为无形”而又永存的，因而体察“道”就必须“无人”、“无我”。这两段是全文论述的主体。

 

The second part of Chapter 6 was compared with all the stars in describing a "natural person" gradually rendering into 'Tao'. Only a 'natural person" can sense 'Tao', and 'Tao' is "natural(wu wei) and formless" but also in eternally existed. In order to sense and observe 'Tao', it must be 'formless' and 'selfless'. These two paragraphs are the main theme of the text.

 

 

况且有了“真人”方才有真知。什么叫做“真人”呢？古时候的“真人”，不倚众凌寡，不自恃成功雄踞他人，也不图谋琐事。像这样的人，错过了时机不后悔，赶上了机遇不得意。象这样的人，登上高处不颤慄，下到水里不会沾湿，进入火中不觉灼热。这只有智慧能通达大道境界的人方才能像这样。

 

There must be a "natural person", in order, to have real knowledge. What was considered to be a "natural person"...??? The "natural person" in the ancient, does not depend on the people nor lean on an individual; does not vainglorious his success by dwelling on top of others; also, does not plan on small things. For this kind of person, one will not regret if an opportunity was missed; and he will not be dogmatic if caught up with a fortune. For this kind of person, he will not tremble even he climbed in high places; he doesn't get wet when he's in the water; he doesn't feel the heat when entered into the fire. Those who can be like so are only the those who has wisdom and able go through the passage of the Great Tao.

 

古时候的“真人”，他睡觉时不做梦，他醒来时不忧愁，他吃东西时不求甘美，他呼吸时气息深沉。

A 'natural person' in the ancient, does not dream asleep, there was no worry when he has awaken; he does not ask for good taste when he eats food; his breath was deep when he breathes.

 

“真人”呼吸凭借的是着地的脚根，而一般人呼吸则靠的只是喉咙。被人屈服时，言语在喉前吞吐就像哇哇地曼语。那些嗜好和欲望太深的人，他们天生的智慧也就很浅。

 

A "natural person" depends the heel of the foot when he breathes, but the ordinary people were depending on the throat. When subdued by others, his speech were become stuttered. Those who were extravagant and with high hopes; their innate wisdom are very shallow.

 

古时候的“真人”，不懂得喜悦生存，也不懂得厌恶死亡；出生不欣喜，入死不推辞；无拘无束地就走了，自由自在地又来了罢了。不忘记自己从哪儿来，也不寻求自己往哪儿去，承受什么际遇都欢欢喜喜，忘掉死生像是回到了自己的本然，这就叫做不用心智去损害大道，也不用人为的因素去帮助自然。

 

A "natural person" in the ancient, does not know how to praise life nor how to censure death; not happy when was born; also not decline when entering death; left with carefree; come as one pleases. Not forgetting where one came from; also not willing to find out where one came from; accepting any situations with joyfulness; forgetting about life and death as if one was returned to the initial natural state. Thus this is called not using the one's wisdom from the heart to ruin the Great Tao; also it was using and factor from human action to assist 'naturalness'.

 

这就叫“真人”。像这样的人，他的内心忘掉了周围的一切，他的容颜淡漠安闲，他的面额质朴端严；冷肃得像秋天，温暖得像春天，高兴或愤怒跟四时更替一样自然无饰，和外界事物合宜相称而没有谁能探测到他精神世界的真谛。

 

This is called the "natural person". Like this kind of person, within the heart, one forgets all what were around oneself. One's face was calm and peaceful, His face was innocent and serious; it's cold like the winter, it's warm like the spring. The joyfulness or indignation without any expression seem like the four changing seasons. There was nothing which is comparable with the external matter and no one can explore the true meaning of the spiritual world.

 

Edited to add:

所以古代圣人使用武力，灭掉敌国却不失掉敌国的民心；利益和恩泽广施于万世，却不是为了偏爱什么人。乐于交往取悦外物的人，不是圣人；有偏爱就算不上是“仁”；伺机行事，不是贤人；不能看到利害的相通和相辅，算不上是君子；办事求名而失掉自身的本性，不是有识之士；丧失身躯却与自己的真性不符，不是能役使世人的人。像狐不偕、务光、伯夷、叔齐、箕子、胥余、纪他、申徒狄，这样的人都是被役使世人的人所役使，都是被安适世人的人所安适，而不是能使自己得到安适的人。

 

Hence, the ancient sages used force to destroy a hostile state without loosing the heart of those people; given benefit and grace throughout the times, but not given nepotism to anyone. One who was in favor of obtaining materialistic leisure is not a sage; one having nepotism in mind was not considered to be 'benevolent'; one who waits for the moment of opportunity to go into action is not virtuous; one who cannot see a conflict of interests may not be considered as a gentleman; one who handles affairs for fame and lost the inherent quality of oneself is not a scholar; one who sacrifice his life which doesn't match his own character is not the one that can be a servant to the people.

 

Note: The phrases in bold are not translated due to the fact that they are too esoteric and philosophical beyond comprehension.

 

古时候的“真人”，神情嵬峨而不矜持，好像不足却又无所承受；态度安闲自然、特立超群而不执着顽固，襟怀宽阔虚空而不浮华；怡然欣喜像是格外地高兴，一举一动又像是出自不得已！容颜和悦令人喜欢接近，与人交往德性宽和让人乐于归依；气度博大像是宽广的世界！高放自得从不受什么限制，绵邈深远好像喜欢封闭自己，心不在焉的样子又好像忘记了要说的话。把刑律当作主体，把礼仪当作羽翼，用已掌握的知识去等待时机，用道德来遵循规律。把刑律当作主体的人，那么杀了人也是宽厚仁慈的；把礼仪当作羽翼的人，用礼仪的教诲在世上施行；用已掌握的知识去等待时机的人，是因为对各种事情出于不得已；用道德来遵循规律，就像是说大凡有脚的人就能够登上山丘，而人们却真以为是勤于行走的人。所以说人们所喜好的是浑然为一的，人们不喜好的也是浑然为一的。那些同一的东西是浑一的，那些不同一的东西也是浑一的。那些同一的东西跟自然同类，那些不同一的东西跟人同类。自然与人不可能相互对立而相互超越，具有这种认识的人就叫做“真人”。

 

The ancient "natural person", one's body expression was towering but not restrainted; it seems insufficient but, yet, not to inherit; one's attitude was clam and natural, standing above all but not persistent nor stubborn, one's mind was opened, broad, vacuous but not ostentatious; happy and cheerful seems like extra joyful, each move seems like it was done unwillingly. One's facial expression was friendly causing people to approach him willingly, associated with people virtuously and toleration and let people to felt like to be depended on; one's bearing was broad like the whole wide world.

 

One was bold and inhibited and had never been restricted by anything, broad vision and recondite seems like liking to enclosed oneself, inattentive seems like one has forgotten what to say. One treated the criminal law as the fundamental principle, and the ritual as one's assistance, using all the knowledge in hand to wait for the moment of opportune, using the virtue of Tao to comply with the natural principles.

 

It seems like saying that the people with legs are able to climb the hills, then they thought that they are the one who was diligent in walking. Therefore, people said that what they were fond of are completely as one, people were not fond of is also completely as one. Those things that were the same are integrated, those things that were not the same are also integrated. Those things that were integrated are in the same category with 'naturalness'. Those things that were not integrated are in the same category with humans. Naturalness and humans are not possible to be opposite with each other but mutually transcended, those who were possessed with this kind of knowledge were considered to be a "natural person".

Edited February 12, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

The second part of Chapter 6 was compared with all the stars in describing a "natural person" gradually rendering into 'Tao'. Only a 'natural person" can sense 'Tao', and 'Tao' is "natural(wu wei) and formless" but also in eternally existed. In order to sense and observe 'Tao', it must be 'formless' and 'selfless'. These two paragraphs are the main theme of the text.

 

There must be a "natural person", in order, to have true knowledge. What was considered to be a "natural person"...??? The "natural person" in the ancient, does not depend on the people nor lean on an individual; does not vaingloriously to glorify his own success by dwelling on top of others; also, does not plan on small things. For this kind of person, one will not regret if an opportunity was passed by; and he will not be smug if caught up with a fortune. For this kind of person, he will not tremble even he climbed in high places; he doesn't get wet when he's in the water; he doesn't feel the heat when entered into the fire. Those who can be like so are only those who have wisdom and able go through the passage of the Great Tao.

 

A 'natural person' in the ancient, does not dream asleep, there was no worry when he has awaken; he does not ask for good taste when he eats food; his breath was deep when he breathes.

 

A "natural person" depends the heel of the foot when he breathes, but the ordinary people were depending on the throat. When subdued by others, his speech were become stuttered. Those who were extravagant and with high hopes; their innate wisdom are very shallow.

 

A "natural person" in the ancient, does not know how to praise life nor how to censure death; not happy when was born; also not decline when entering death; left with carefree; come as one pleases. Not forgetting where one came from; also not willing to find out where one came from; accepting any situations with joyfulness; forgetting about life and death as if one was returned to the initial natural state. Thus this is called not using the one's wisdom within the heart to ruin the Great Tao; also it was not using any resultant factor from the human action to assist 'naturalness'.

 

This is called the "natural person". Like this kind of person, within the heart, one forgets all what was around oneself. One's face was calm and peaceful, his face was innocent and serious; it's cold like the winter, it's warm like the spring. The joyfulness or indignation without any warning seems like the four changing seasons. There was nothing which is comparable with any external matter and no one can explore the true meaning of the spiritual world.

 

Edited to add:

Hence, the ancient sages used force to destroy a hostile state without loosing the heart of those people; given benefit and grace throughout the times, but not given nepotism to anyone. One who was in favor of obtaining materialistic leisure is not a sage; one having nepotism in mind was not considered to be 'benevolent'; one who waits for the moment of opportunity to go into action is not virtuous; one who cannot see a conflict of interests may not be considered as a gentleman; one who handles affairs for fame and lost the inherent quality of oneself is not a scholar; one who sacrifice his life which doesn't match his own character is not the one that can be a servant to the people.

Edited February 12, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Nice.

 

I've not yet experiences "breathing through the heels of my feet" (full body breathing).

 

I think that this is something that must be (re)learned. Perhaps one day when I intentionally meditate I will give it a serious try.

[ChiDragon]

The second part of Chapter 6 was compared with all the stars in describing a "natural person" gradually rendering into 'Tao'. Only a 'natural person" can sense 'Tao', and 'Tao' is "natural(wu wei) and formless" but also in eternally existed. In order to sense and observe 'Tao', it must be 'formless' and 'selfless'. These two paragraphs are the main theme of the text.

 

There must be a "natural person", in order, to have true knowledge. What was considered to be a "natural person"...??? The "natural person" in the ancient, does not depend on the people nor lean on an individual; does not vaingloriously to glorify his own success by dwelling on top of others; also, does not plan on small things. For this kind of person, one will not regret if an opportunity was passed by; and he will not be smug if caught up with a fortune. For this kind of person, he will not tremble even he climbed in high places; he doesn't get wet when he's in the water; he doesn't feel the heat when entered into the fire. Those who can be like so are only those who have wisdom and able go through the passage of the Great Tao.

 

A 'natural person' in the ancient, does not dream asleep, there was no worry when he has awaken; he does not ask for good taste when he eats food; his breath was deep when he breathes.

 

A "natural person" depends the heel of the foot when he breathes, but the ordinary people were depending on the throat. When subdued by others, his speech were become stuttered. Those who were extravagant and with high hopes; their innate wisdom are very shallow.

 

A "natural person" in the ancient, does not know how to praise life nor how to censure death; not happy when was born; also not decline when entering death; left with carefree; come as one pleases. Not forgetting where one came from; also not willing to find out where one came from; accepting any situations with joyfulness; forgetting about life and death as if one was returned to the initial natural state. Thus this is called not using the one's wisdom within the heart to ruin the Great Tao; also it was not using any resultant factor from the human action to assist 'naturalness'.

 

This is called the "natural person". Like this kind of person, within the heart, one forgets all what was around oneself. One's face was calm and peaceful, his face was innocent and serious; it's cold like the winter, it's warm like the spring. The joyfulness or indignation without any warning seems like the four changing seasons. There was nothing which is comparable with any external matter and no one can explore the true meaning of the spiritual world.

 

Hence, the ancient sages used force to destroy a hostile state without loosing the heart of those people; given benefit and grace throughout the times, but not given nepotism to anyone. One who was in favor of obtaining materialistic leisure is not a sage; one having nepotism in mind was not considered to be 'benevolent'; one who waits for the moment of opportunity to go into action is not virtuous; one who cannot see a conflict of interests may not be considered as a gentleman; one who handles affairs for fame and lost the inherent quality of oneself is not a scholar; one who sacrifice his life which doesn't match his own character is not the one that can be a servant to the people.

 

An ancient "natural person", one's body expression was towering but not restrainted; it seems insufficient but, yet, not to inherit; one's attitude was clam and natural, standing above all but not persistent nor stubborn, one's mind was opened, broad, vacuous but not ostentatious; happy and cheerful seems like extra joyful, each move seems like it was done unwillingly. One's facial expression was friendly causing people to approach him willingly, associated with people virtuously and toleration and let people to felt like to be depended on; one's bearing was broad like the whole wide world.

 

One who was bold and inhibited and had never been restricted by anything, broad vision and recondite seems like liking to enclosed oneself, inattentive seems like one has forgotten what to say. One treated the criminal law as the fundamental principle, and the ritual as one's assistance, using all the knowledge in hand to wait for the moment of opportune, using the virtue of Tao to comply with the natural principles.

 

It seems like saying that the people with legs are able to climb the hills, then they thought that they are the one who was diligent in walking. Therefore, people said that what they were fond of are completely as one, people were not fond of is also completely as one. Those things that were the same are integrated, those things that were not the same are also integrated. Those things that were integrated are in the same category with 'naturalness'. Those things that were not integrated are in the same category with humans. Naturalness and humans are not possible to be opposite with each other but mutually transcended, those who were possessed with this kind of knowledge are considered to be a "natural person".

Edited February 12, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Good job!