MCO - references in other modern systems?

[Helder]

Hi all,

 

And for those in the Western Calendar - Happy New Year!

 

I have a question for you Taoist adepts. I have been mostly following yogic methods and theory but have to admit that the Microcosmic Orbit (MCO) has been extremely beneficial to me, healing in ways I have not found in other methods.

 

I follow generally the instructions given by Matak Chia and was wondering if there are other teachers/systems out there that have in the MCO the same foundation for their method of inner healing. In other words, is this general framework (the MCO, the importance of the Lower Tan Tien, etc.) established in Taoist practice as fundamental and foundational? Is this what the ancient classical taoist texts on internal alchemy say also? Could you suggest such a classic text that describes this in (more or less!) clear and not so alegorical terms?

 

I am just interested in looking at other independent sources for comparison. What texts/modern systems do you recommend I look into that has more or less the same framework and that is not stemmign from Chia's system (e.g. Michael Winn, etc.)? I know Mantak Chia has a complete system that gets quite complicated after the initial stages of the MCO but I wonder if these are necessary or to what extent they are.Maybe other systems explain it differently and I just like to look at different sources, independent from eachother.

 

Thank you very much in advance!

Helder

Edited January 1, 2012 by Helder

[寒月 Hanyue]

is this general framework (the MCO, the importance of the Lower Tan Tien, etc.) established in Taoist practice as fundamental and foundational?

 

Yes and No.

 

The focusing on actively engaging with the MCO is NOT foundational to all Daoist practices.

 

Though the opening of it is viewed as an important foundation. You do not have to focus upon the MCO to open it or benefit from it's circulation. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

So it really depends on the lineage.

 

Best,

[Cameron]

Chias system is interesting. I took some classes with Michael Winn years ago. If your drawn to it check Michael out.

 

I found Kunlun(Max Christensen) to be a good path. You learn two very powerful lineage practices from the Maoshan branch of Tao. The channels(like MCO) eventually open on their own.

 

Max teaches a version of the MCO called the Red Dragon circulation. It's interesting but I don't practice it myself. You have to learn it from him in person though.

 

Personally, I prefer the 'water' method dissolving approach to opening channels then the more 'fire' path of using yi or intent to to open them up.

 

But that's just me, maybe you are different. If I remember correctly(It has been years since I read it) in BK Frantzis book he said that his teacher taught him the water path but taught another student the fire path. So it is an individual thing.

 

For example, my teacher is able to look at students energetically and see what they need. More fire, more water, more earth etc

 

Ideally, try to find a Master or atleast good qigong teacher to give you an in person assessment and cultivation prescription.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Cameron

[Helder]

Hello and thank you for your replies.

 

So it seems like Chia's approach is safe and sound. It seems to be, to me at least, as it is working very well. But just out of curiosity, are there other books or authors that also mention the MCO that are not Chia or anyone related to him? In other words some independent source of the same practice (ancient or modern)?

 

Yes Cameron, I know a live master is ideal, however it is not easy to find one in your backyard, especially if you are from a tiny country in Europe

 

Best wishes,

Helder

[ChiDragon]

Hi all,

 

Is this what the ancient classical taoist texts on internal alchemy say also? Could you suggest such a classic text that describes this in (more or less!) clear and not so alegorical terms?

 

I am just interested in looking at other independent sources for comparison. Maybe other systems explain it differently and I just like to look at different sources, independent from each other.

 

Thank you very much in advance!

Helder

 

Here is a independent source for you.

Independent source of MCO

[Chang]

This link will take you to an interesting method of opening the microcosmic orbit that was new to me.

Open the orbit using chi ball

[Friend]

Edited January 9, 2012 by Friend

[johndoe2012]

I think I have seen the MCO referenced in some of the texts in Thomas Cleary: Vitality, energy, spirit.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Vitality-Energy-Spirit-Sourcebook-Shambhala/dp/1590306880/ref=sr_1_20?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326138395&sr=1-20

 

Though I seem to remember it was mentioned in a cryptic manner as in all alchemical texts. I think Chia's system derives from some of the ancient alchemical texts.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I think I have seen the MCO referenced in some of the texts in Thomas Cleary: Vitality, energy, spirit.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Vitality-Energy-Spirit-Sourcebook-Shambhala/dp/1590306880/ref=sr_1_20?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1326138395&sr=1-20

 

Though I seem to remember it was mentioned in a cryptic manner as in all alchemical texts. I think Chia's system derives from some of the ancient alchemical texts.

 

Yes, it is mentioned in most alchemical texts in one way or another ("Holding Yin, Embracing Yang" is another). The methods that Mantak Chia suggests though are less common, I would say, since he goes more for the "build up insane amounts of energy until it bursts like an oil well" which is more along the lines of Kundalini yoga than what is suggested in Taoist texts which generally follow the Lao Tzu style of achievement.

 

From my untutored perspective, the source texts generally say to practice emptiness meditation and when everything is relaxed and empty, channels will open up and the MCO will start to move.

 

 

What I would like to know (maybe should start yet another MCO thread) is what does everyone say is the purpose of the MCO, or the effects of the MCO?

[寒月 Hanyue]

Hello and thank you for your replies.

 

You are welcome.

 

So it seems like Chia's approach is safe and sound.

 

Er, please re-read my original post. If that is what you got from what I said then my apologies. There are several acknowledged issues with Chia's method and this has been discussed at length before. There are both active and passive approaches to MCO development, just because some shout about it doesn't mean that those that don't don't open it, use it or understand it.

 

Personally I think Chia's method is not very good, but is also more often than not taken out of context and mis-understood. The best of his books on it is probably 'Awakening healing light of the Tao'. But search and check out Michael's Winn's more recent elucidation's regarding Chia's method if that is the approach you have your heart set on. It will at least frame it properly for you.

 

Chia teaches a progression of practices that builds to neidan. Any part of the whole should not be taken out of the context of the whole. Even though the MCO is made a deal of within the Healing Dao System (and by those influenced by it), it is a part of the system and not the beginning of that system. A foundation prior to MCO should be developed, this I have found over the years is all too forgotten.

 

While from buddhism, I feel this is relevant;

"Originally, meditations were more balanced in their approach... In full retreat, anywhere from nineteen to twenty-one hours per day are dedicated to the practice of ongoing awareness. The exotic exercises than many beings are so anxious to get into are really meant to be a capstone, to be placed on a background of established awareness. They are not a starting point but a tool with which to probe more deeply into the nature of mind."

 

Both suitable dong(wai)gong and jing(nei)gong need to be practiced. Dong gong that opens the ren and du needs to be done along with sitting. Winn actually teaches methods learned from Frantzis to his students to do this, go figure. If you have qi, it will circulate it doesn't need you to move it. No qi, spin your yi in your body in any orbit you want, it won't really do much.

 

These cover two of the issues at least,

 

But just out of curiosity, are there other books or authors that also mention the MCO that are not Chia or anyone related to him? In other words some independent source of the same practice (ancient or modern)?

 

Of course, most of them! Contemporary authors who teach versions and different progressions of active MCO development? Simply hit the book stores pop-qigong authors and many 'healers' constantly repeat each other about this. Caveat emptor, beware original sources.

 

It is understood differently in qigong*, Chinese medicine and Daoism, from what I have been expsosed to.

 

Best,

 

*qigong in this context refers to the myriad of practices that have sprung up out of the woodwork in China over the last 30-40 years.

Edited January 9, 2012 by snowmonki

[dawei]

This link will take you to an interesting method of opening the microcosmic orbit that was new to me.

Open the orbit using chi ball

I learned something similar.

1. Pack dan tian with Qi into a ball... larger and larger.

2. Turn the Qi ball (turbine style).

3. When ready and while still turning the ball, make it smaller and smaller to the size of a pearl.

4. Drop pearl into perineum.

4. Do the MCO with the pearl.

5. When done, bring back up to dan tian. let it enlarge and dissolve.

[joeblast]

Put in a dantien perspective - as one gains proficiency with dantien breathing, the concept can be extrapolated to all 3. From Steven Chang's Complete System of Healing, described as immortal breathing...and the 12 notes of the mco are "in the trigrams"...not to mention, the 36 ascents of positive fire and 24 descents of negative fire as mentioned in taoist yoga.

 

[Birch]

Yes, it is mentioned in most alchemical texts in one way or another ("Holding Yin, Embracing Yang" is another). The methods that Mantak Chia suggests though are less common, I would say, since he goes more for the "build up insane amounts of energy until it bursts like an oil well" which is more along the lines of Kundalini yoga than what is suggested in Taoist texts which generally follow the Lao Tzu style of achievement.

 

From my untutored perspective, the source texts generally say to practice emptiness meditation and when everything is relaxed and empty, channels will open up and the MCO will start to move.

 

 

What I would like to know (maybe should start yet another MCO thread) is what does everyone say is the purpose of the MCO, or the effects of the MCO?

 

Nicely said!

I dunno what the purpose of MCO is but I think it's about connecting all of the "main" brains with awareness, so you end up with a loop you can then use as a receiver for the rest of the practices. Also return the jing-qi-shen cycle to shen-qi-jing (which is kind of the same as the first idea) But that's just my random ideas:-)

[konchog uma]

 

What I would like to know (maybe should start yet another MCO thread) is what does everyone say is the purpose of the MCO, or the effects of the MCO?

 

Well to circulate energy dispels stagnation. Also, i think the ren and du mai are said to govern the other 6 reservoirs in the body, so by "turning the water wheel" it is said that one can regulate the distribution of energy evenly throughout the system. Damo Mitchell talks about that in Daoist Neigong. And i just finished reading The Tao of Meditation by Tsung Hwa Jou in which he gives a technique of sublimating the sexual energy (jing) into vitality (chi) by means of a MCO meditation.. nothing unusual about it, just that by circulating the energy, the nature of that energy becomes sublimated.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

@ -K-

 

interesting ideas. what you say about reversing the cultivation sequence sort of rings a bell, since I have read about emptiness meditation cultivating shen first which then becomes qi and then jing. Given that MCO (from the more wu wei approach) occurs from emptiness, I can see how that may very well be.

 

"connecting with the different brains".. hmmm.. this is sort of what I'm looking for, since "Secret of the the Golden Flower" talks about cultivating, well it depends on the translation, but I think the Heart-Mind.. So, yes, open awareness type, I suppose.

 

 

Also, in sublimating sexual energy it allows more for autonomy of mind, which seems to be a large part of Cleary's translation of "Secret of the the Golden Flower."

 

+ @Anamatva,

 

that's what I hear mostly, especially from modern sources, but I still wonder because there seems to be more to it.

 

I guess it's like the DDJ says "after extreme of stillness there is movement" so one has to let the movement move so that they can have the stillness-in-movement and movement-in-stillness. I guess this all leads to Heart-Mind materialization too.

[konchog uma]

 

+ @Anamatva,

 

that's what I hear mostly, especially from modern sources, but I still wonder because there seems to be more to it.

 

I guess it's like the DDJ says "after extreme of stillness there is movement" so one has to let the movement move so that they can have the stillness-in-movement and movement-in-stillness. I guess this all leads to Heart-Mind materialization too.

 

I am pretty sure that there is a lot more to it ... I just can't speak from experience. I am awaiting the response of other members curiously. I like that about stillness and movement, good point.

 

All i really know is that I am inclined to "do" the MCO all the time.. I was doing it this morning and my energies just reversed spontaneously, my dantian started rotating backwards, and my body refused to do anything but circulate the wind path, or reverse, MCO. It was neat, but i think my body is telling me i should do that more often. Some practitioners swear by the reverse movement of the MCO, and they cite Master Lao's verse in the TTJ "the movement of the way is reversal". So i will add the question to the queue, what exactly does the wind path accomplish? For me it is just a way of reducing stagnation and giving my energy a "boost" but i can tell by the boost that there is something deeper going on whazupwidat?

[Aetherous]

what exactly does the wind path accomplish?

 

Well, I would like to reverse (haha) the question...what does the fire path accomplish?

 

In my experience, wind path is very relaxing, normalizing, cooling, and healing. I guess you could say it's more spiritual as well.

 

On the other hand, I don't have much experience with fire circulation. If you're already getting those benefits from reverse, then does fire cover anything that wind doesn't?

[Cameron]

Michael Winn had an interesting perspective that doing the microcosmic orbit up the back and down the front refines jing to qi to shen. And doing it up the front and down the back refines shen to qi to jing.

 

Personally, I prefer the unforced and natural approach to all of this. Essentially the way Sifu Jenny Lamb teaches.

[Ish]

I am pretty sure that there is a lot more to it ... I just can't speak from experience. I am awaiting the response of other members curiously. I like that about stillness and movement, good point.

 

All i really know is that I am inclined to "do" the MCO all the time.. I was doing it this morning and my energies just reversed spontaneously, my dantian started rotating backwards, and my body refused to do anything but circulate the wind path, or reverse, MCO. It was neat, but i think my body is telling me i should do that more often. Some practitioners swear by the reverse movement of the MCO, and they cite Master Lao's verse in the TTJ "the movement of the way is reversal". So i will add the question to the queue, what exactly does the wind path accomplish? For me it is just a way of reducing stagnation and giving my energy a "boost" but i can tell by the boost that there is something deeper going on whazupwidat?

 

 

Well the "fire path" is ALREADY the reverse way, the energy in emission naturally flows down the spine and out the genital organ, so the fire path is reverse of the normal way that leads to drain of vitality.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Ish

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Michael Winn had an interesting perspective that doing the microcosmic orbit up the back and down the front refines jing to qi to shen. And doing it up the front and down the back refines shen to qi to jing.

 

Personally, I prefer the unforced and natural approach to all of this. Essentially the way Sifu Jenny Lamb teaches.

 

Very interesting comments from all. I found the water path to occur more spontaneously for me. So I guess doing emptiness meditation, the water path naturally occurs, builds jing in the long run, and the fire path is then used to reverse the flow. Essentially, so striving to build up jing by all these sexual methods are not entirely necessary if your sexual vigour is plentiful as is. This of course would be an age-old inter-school debate.

 

The fire path seems to be a lot more yang, in that it results in more "fire" like (perhaps kundalini like) energy, and the water path seems to have a more stabilizing, caliming, energy, while both of them circulate energy rather than let it drain or cause trouble.

 

I suppose it all comes down to being able to calm and stabilize, and even activate, our energies which benefits in being able to do the same with emotional energies that may obscure Tao in us. Further down the road, some might be able to sort of POP out of their body on this energy as the dragon body? This is speculation on my part, of course, though it's making some sense to me..

 

Edited January 10, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Trunk]

I am just interested in looking at other independent sources for comparison.

There are some various ideas in the microcosmic orbit section of alchemicaltaoism.com. Also some references in the "additional reading" section of same.

 

Interesting external link.

[konchog uma]

Well the "fire path" is ALREADY the reverse way, the energy in emission naturally flows down the spine and out the genital organ, so the fire path is reverse of the normal way that leads to drain of vitality.

 

thats a cool point

[humbleone]

[Ish]

[Harmonious Emptiness]

For those of us looking for shortcuts , I have heard that MCO can be opened up by a 'high level' teacher. The falun Dafa teacher makes this claim, and so does apparently some students of master Wang Liping!

 

What do you guys think?

 

 

“ Ohmigod! Grand Master Wang has opened up my microcosmic orbit during Intensive in China! This is the REAL DEAL if you're tired of wasted time on fruitless practices. Mastery is a Science!! I LOVE Grandmaster Wang, his practice is PRICELESS... ”

 

Well, I wouldn't say it's so much of a short cut given that you'll need to be able to sit in full-lotus for 2 hours continuously first, and also spend quite a bit of time with him I believe too.

 

I dunno, I'm partial to the Northern Quan Zhen style, not that I know a terrible amount about it, but it seems a bit different from the majority of Longmen Pai practices. Some might say the northern schools were too influenced by Buddhism, but to each one's own really. For the most part I find it a bit laughable that so many people have these huge aspirations to be these legendary immortals of the new age, but again, to each one's own.

 

edit: actually, I should say, I can understand why people want to learn more once they hear some of the wisdom of Tao. I just find it a bit odd that so many people expect to match the masters without becoming a renunciate and leaving everything behind as the masters had to do.

Edited January 10, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness