MCO - references in other modern systems?

[ChiDragon]

[Aetherous]

Personally, I prefer the unforced and natural approach to all of this. Essentially the way Sifu Jenny Lamb teaches.

 

I prefer things very unforced and natural, as well...but sometimes using intention to guide the qi is a very natural thing. If it were forced, bad things would happen.

[寒月 Hanyue]

For those of us looking for shortcuts , I have heard that MCO can be opened up by a 'high level' teacher....What do you guys think?

 

In cultivation there is the "passive school" and the "active school", and there are blends of the two. However there are no shortcuts.

 

Can a high level teacher help open your qimai? Yes. But why do you want them to? If you are given everything for free what have you earned? what have you learned? Nothing.

 

A good High level teacher will help when and IF they feel it is appropriate. But you still need to practice.

 

not complete beginners opening true mco

 

true mco? What's that feel like?

 

I've seen enough respected teachers explain how easily people can be deluded into thinking they have done something like "open a chakra", "open the MCO", "raise Kundalini" etc, to believe that there is a 'real' xiao zhou tian (small heavenly cycle(SHC)/Micro-cosmic Orbit(MCO)) and a 'false' one.

 

Let's be clear though why has the SHC become SO famous and sought after?

 

The explanations within Chinese medicine is like looking at medical texts on anatomy and physiology. So if you see an olympic athlete do something amazing, is a medical text on A&P going to tell you much? Not really, it certainly isn't going to tell you if that person was able to do that because of training and practice or simply because "they can", and even if it is possible those texts won't explain how to replicate it.

 

The cultivation schools have their ways of working with your energy body and qimai based upon what they are trying to achieve. Same as a training hall churning out power lifters may dip into bio-medicine in its sports science, but will be different in how it uses that knowledge to say those training elite basketball players, or outside of sports, say the military.

 

This is why you get different opinions on what the SHC is, and HOW to work with it. Not all roads lead to Rome.

 

The ren and du mai are but two of eight qimai. These eight are called 奇 "qi". We call a day 24 hours, yet we know that in fact an actual day is not exactly 24 hours. This is how we end up with little bits of extra time that lead to leap years and so forth. The 24 hours would be "normal/ordinary" time, the other bits would be 奇 "qi" (extra-"ordinary"). It is not so much that they are extraordinary as in special or secret, it is more that they lie outside of "ordinary", they are "extra" if that makes sense. People make a big deal of them but they are really mis-understood.

 

One of the reasons for this is because modern Chinese medicine (TCM) has focused upon zangfu (organ) theory and the theory of the jingluo (12 "ordinary" meridians), this in part if because zangfu most closely resembles Western bio-medicine anatomy, and because the jingluo can be used to influence the zangfu. In doing so it has marginalised many of the other theories and components that occured in Chinese medical thought. Now the eight qimai are often considered esoteric.

 

This happens a lot. There is, in Western medicine and sports science, currently a big resurgence in the investigation and understanding of the role of the connective tissues (fascia) of the body, because Western bio-medical science had for the most part ignored it. Cutting it away during dissection to get to the interesting and, at that time, perceivably important body parts. Acknowledgment of its importance was always on the fringes, this is changing. But what else is being ignored?

 

In cultivation terms what causes confusion is that someone explained an experience and subsequent observations, and that description became understood as important to replicate and copy to "Be" like the "Master". And so the experience is 'reverse' engineered. The student hearing of the experience of qi circulating through the qimai during practice, devises a way to move qi in that way. In time it becomes its own practice.

 

Now in medicinal terms, through observation, we find that moving qi in certain ways has certain affects on the system and these can be beneficial for certain imbalances. Jerry Alan Johnson has written and spoken of this, how prescriptive practices become abused and misused. This include the "MCO" practices, which should only be done by certain people at certain times for certain reasons, and due to development you should move on. You don't want to still be doing rehab physiotherapy 10 years later!

 

Are the ren and du mai important? yes, but focusing upon it over the other 6 of the eight qimai, or any other aspect of the whole is daft. They are intimately related with the daimai and chongmai as the four mai of the torso. Trunk made some good posts about this ages ago from his investigation and practice. My contribution is that it is easy to misunderstand the ren and du because the acupoint locations are drawn on the body for acupuncturists, which can give a false impression of the routes of the qimai, given the other six mai do not have their own acupoints this happens less so with them. There is waiqi and neiqi. Also, look at the physiology of the body, the spine and nervous system in back and the?...internal organs in front, understanding zheng 正 and zhong 中 are important IME.

 

Best,

 

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

Interesting external link.

 

Yes it was, thank you

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

I prefer things very unforced and natural, as well...but sometimes using intention to guide the qi is a very natural thing. If it were forced, bad things would happen.

 

Hey Scotty

 

I agree, 顺 shun and 逆 ni are VERY misunderstood and badly translated, its a shame. Find a good dictionary and look them up, come to your own understanding. 运氣 yunqi certainly doesn't have to be forced, there are ways of moving qi and ways of moving qi.

 

Best,

[Aetherous]

There is a reason for opening the MCO indirectly...then there is a reason for circulating it with your intention directly. And also a reason for other methods inbetween the two opposite ways, such as focusing on various points in succession as in SFQ's small universe.

 

To say that pure intention methods are wrong, harmful, or less beneficial is completely false. They are awesome, if you've been taught a good one!

[Aetherous]

snowmonki,

 

Thanks for the Chinese words...will look them up!

[Aetherous]

Hey Scotty

 

I agree, 顺 shun and 逆 ni are VERY misunderstood and badly translated, its a shame. Find a good dictionary and look them up, come to your own understanding. 运氣 yunqi certainly doesn't have to be forced, there are ways of moving qi and ways of moving qi.

 

Best,

 

Oh yes, just looked them up and then recalled that they are in the book, "Foundations of Internal Alchemy".

 

"Essence, Breath and Spirit affect one another. When they follow the course, they form the human being; when they invert the course they generate the Elixir.

 

What is the meaning of "following the course" (shun)? "The One generates the Two, the Two generate the Three, the Three generate the ten thousand things." Therefore, emptiness transmutes itself into Spirit, Spirit transmutes itself into Breath, Breath transmutes itself into Essence, Essence transmutes itself into form, and form becomes the human being.

 

What is the meaning of "inverting the course" (ni)? The ten thousand things hold the Three, the Three return to the Two, the Two return to the One. Those who know this way look after their Spirit, and guard their corporeal form. They nourish the corporeal form to refine the Essence, accumulate the Essence to transmute it into Breath, refine the Breath to merge it with Spirit, and refine the Spirit to revert to Emptiness. Then the Golden Elixir is achieved."

 

The thing about intention MCO is that it does both "ni" and "shun".

 

What is your understanding of these terms, snowmonki?

[ChiDragon]

Hey Scotty

 

I agree, 顺 shun and 逆 ni are VERY misunderstood and badly translated, its a shame. Find a good dictionary and look them up, come to your own understanding. 运氣 yunqi certainly doesn't have to be forced, there are ways of moving qi and ways of moving qi.

 

Best,

 

运氣 yunqi is moving the Chi by guiding with your 意(yi). In the way, it was not by force completely but with a little help from your yi to guide the chi properly to go different places inside the body....

Edited January 10, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Cameron]

I prefer things very unforced and natural, as well...but sometimes using intention to guide the qi is a very natural thing. If it were forced, bad things would happen.

 

 

I would like to agree with you but need to explore and verify personally for myself more deeply before I can do so. The best I can come up with now is the "natural" approach is best until you really, really know what you are doing.

 

And even then, I am not sure using intent would be good. But atleast wait until you really, really know what your doing before using to much intent to "move qi".

 

To probe a little deeper. I remember this was something I was thinking about seriously years ago when I attended an Adyashanti weekend retreat with Sean. What I was getting was it's not so much about "doing something" to open yourself. What caused these channels to close in the first place? Doing something. Namely, the mind contracting around trauma in our life causing tension in our body. We use our mind to stop the river flowing. The river itself didn't stop.

 

Or to use a garden hose as an example. The faucet is on we don't need to push the water more. What we need to do is gently straighten out any twisted and contracted parts of the hose. And with ourselves what does this amount to? Do nothing. Because it's the doing something that messed us up.

 

So just relax

 

Then if you want to do something go for a nice hike, go swimming, play tennis, do martial arts, lift weights, go skiing or snowboard, dance, ride a horse or build a castle insteadof messing with your natural qi flow lol. Or, if you really know what your doing then no problem. I have a couple teachers like that also.

[Cameron]

Another way I think about it is clench your fist tightly. And imagine that is akin to an energy block. Now, does sending more energy through that clenched fist help to open it?

 

Just stop clenching!

 

Anyway, my 2 cents. I know some people seem to really enjoy the fire path and doing all sorts of stuff with energy so not saying it is neccissarily a bad thing. But not in alignment with my current level of attainment or goals. You could be different.

[Cameron]

Also, I realize this is the MCO thread so not trying to talk anyone out of doing the MCO.

 

Believe me, I have seen online wars over this subject long before most of you came here.

 

It's just an alternative perspective that's all. Before running to much energy around with your mind maybe experiment with the less effort dissolving approach.

 

Modern teachers who are adept at teaching this off the top of my head, BK Frantzis, Jenny Lamb and Adyashanti.

 

Most of the serious practitiners of standing meditation seem to say much the same thing..don't do too much with energy..just stand.

[Birch]

Time to plug Damo Mitchell's book again:-)

He makes some good arguments for using LDT to drive MCO rather than pushing through channels with Yi.

Also interesting - mentions that acupuncture needles are used to access meridiens but that the next step is the practitioner using their Yi to direct qi in the patient. First time I've read that but I was pondering the idea of needles as little antennae...

 

If we're referring to the ren/du waterwheel then I suspect it's as good a Yi training wheel as any. Anyone recall how hard it is to do even one round the 1st time?

[Aetherous]

I like your points, Cam, and totally agree. Most of the time my path is 'letting go' and doing nothing. Sooooo easy!

 

But reverse orbit has really interesting effects...it can be very deeply relaxing...so it's technically a "fire method" by definition, but its effect is like that of the water methods!

 

Here is another way of classifying the two approaches:

 

"There are two main methods of Chinese Taoist meditation: the fire and water approaches. The fire method emphasizes force and pushing forward. It has the characteristics of flame, ever leaping forward to consume more fuel. The water method, on the other hand, believes in effort without force, in relaxation, in letting go. It displays the characteristics of water: softness and flow.

 

The water practices are based on a philosophical perspective that is relevant to everyday life: Whatever you do must feel comfortable. You learn to exert full effort without strained force. In order to do that, you must refine a certain edge in the mind. To employ all of your effort and yet not use force, not contravene the actual limits of the body, the mind, and the spirit, is the gentle way of Lao Tse."

 

- Bruce Frantzis in "Relaxing into your Being"

 

"Effort without force, softness, flow"...these are good descriptions for circulating the orbit with intention. To be forceful with it is to disturb the qi.

 

The description of fire method as "pushing forward". What is the opposite of pushing? Pulling...and this is how the 'yi guides the qi'. Forceful would be the opposite, where yi tries to push the qi through the route. That doesn't work.

 

Forward motion is related to the regular rotation of the orbit. If you were to spin a tennis ball in that direction, it would "move forward". But reverse orbit is related to falling back into your being...take the tennis ball and roll it in reverse, and it will come back to you.

 

So, despite using intention, it can actually be considered quite the water method. If the results are that you relax on a really deep level, then it works.

 

Speaking of this, you've inspired me to practice.

[Aetherous]

Another way I think about it is clench your fist tightly. And imagine that is akin to an energy block. Now, does sending more energy through that clenched fist help to open it?

 

Just stop clenching!

 

To use your example...

 

A blockage is like being unaware that you're clenching your fist. Our nervous system has adapted and become desensitized to it...so it stays that way.

 

This is the reason for the dissolving practice that Frantzis teaches...practicing that method re-sensitizes those areas of the body, so that you can finally realize you're clenching, and let it go. This happens through moving the awareness within the body.

 

The way I view it, this is almost exactly the same with doing the MCO with intention...except with that we aren't focusing on blockages. We're just flowing through (in that sense, it could be considered even more of a water method than dissolving).

 

So as a result we become aware of the subtle blockages around the front and back channels (in addition to many other things), and if there are any blockages, they can be released.

 

Anyway, not trying to convince you of anything...just chattin it up.

[Cameron]

Yes, exactly. Your not aware of the tension or holding. From that perspective, pretty much any stillness type meditation or simply sitting and watching thoughts, your breath etc would be better imho then running the orbit.

 

That's just an opinion. Mantak Chia has plenty of people who like his system so obviously that approach can work also.

 

And Scotty, since we are talking. My(our?) teachers transmission does quite a lot in and of itself. From my experience not much needs to be added to getting transmission from Max and doing Kunlun and Red Phoenix. Max told me the first time I met him you don't need to do MCO. So the teaching of the school I personally practice "just relax".

 

But I realize many people aren't going to get transmission from Max or do Kunlun, so that's a seperate issue.

 

Glad you are getting benefit from doing Red Dragon!(or some variation of it)

Edited January 11, 2012 by Cameron

[Cameron]

But to answer the original question, yes other Taoist teachers do use the MCO.

 

Off the top of my head, Master Chen of Wudang Pai teaches it.

 

http://wudangtao.com/

[joeblast]

Time to plug Damo Mitchell's book again:-)

He makes some good arguments for using LDT to drive MCO rather than pushing through channels with Yi.

Also interesting - mentions that acupuncture needles are used to access meridiens but that the next step is the practitioner using their Yi to direct qi in the patient. First time I've read that but I was pondering the idea of needles as little antennae...

 

If we're referring to the ren/du waterwheel then I suspect it's as good a Yi training wheel as any. Anyone recall how hard it is to do even one round the 1st time?

teh heh heh, that's a bitta what I've linked

 

 

And Scotty, since we are talking. My(our?) teachers transmission does quite a lot in and of itself. From my experience not much needs to be added to getting transmission from Max and doing Kunlun and Red Phoenix.

emphasis - enhanced and accelerated everything I was doing

[Helder]

Thanks snowmunki I hear ya. The point about mindfulness is full on

[Cameron]

Please be cautious if you start to dabble with the sexual teachings in Chias system btw. Circulating sexual energy or MCO doing "big draw" etc

 

imho, the best part of Chias system is the inner smile. That really is a great practice.

 

A nice way to play with MCO if you want to try is do the inner smile a lot. Then when you feel smile energy gently smile around the orbit with intention. And if it doesn't happen quite naturally, unforced and all on it's own leave it alone. Just "smile down". It's a water method way to do it.

 

Visualizing spinning pearls, doing reverse breathing to move the qi around, intense fire breathing to get it moving etc are all quick ways to feel energy but imho a misguided approach. BK Franzis has it right.

 

Or if you would like a simple qigong practice that is every bit as interesting as MCO get Sifu Jenny Lamb's DVD. She teaches many cool practices to open channels in a very grounded and safe way.

 

Anyway, good luck. Again, I have come back and said my 2 cents and then some. Back to winter hibernation!

[Aetherous]

Eh, my view is that "there is a time for everything". RD tends to be my favorite practice.

 

I agree, inner smile and Jenny's DVD are great.

[Cameron]

Yeah, me too. That's why I never say any practice is "good" or "bad" like some people do.

 

Who knows? Maybe their is some genius who can attain enlightenment following Mantak Chias system. I don't know.

 

Anyway, I am not going to drop in for a awhile because every time I do I feel the need to post! lol

 

Talk you in a few months, good luck and props for having success with RD. Never got that one quite fired up myself but good to hear.

 

Cam

Edited January 12, 2012 by Cameron

[joeblast]

Good seeing you Cam Not sure where you are in China, but Lin is in Shanghai for a while!

[Chang]

Or to use a garden hose as an example. The faucet is on we don't need to push the water more. What we need to do is gently straighten out any twisted and contracted parts of the hose. And with ourselves what does this amount to? Do nothing. Because it's the doing something that messed us up.

So just relax

 

This is correct and the energy will flow with greater ease through the relaxed body. Unfortunately once more our use of language causes problems.

As regards our internal practices we may use the physical body to affect the energetic body. By this I mean that by manipulating that which is manifest (the physical body) we may effect that which is unmanifest (the energetic body).

This is generally better done though through a process of expansiveness rather than through relaxation.

If we take the skeletal structure as an example I think more of expansiveness than relaxation. It is as though the space between the joints just increases by a fraction. A good way of explaining this is to use the hand as an example. We are all familiar with Mickey Mouse. Well imagine that you are wearing a pair of his huge gloves. They cover your hand but do not touch your skin at any point. Now feel that your hand is expanding to come into contact with the glove (this should be a completely expansive process involving no tensing of the muscles). This alone has an amazing energising effect.

Now imagine if in you Standing Stake practice you were to do this with your whole body. You will find that it will take you to a whole new level.

When Standing Stake practitioners speak of energy channels opening through simple standing alone then it is this process which brings it about. Obviously the principles of external posture would have to be correct but it is all part and parcel of the same process.

 

I hope that I have been able to put this point across in astraightforward manner and that it may prove of use.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Chang

[joeblast]

While our use of language may at times cause confusion due to the inexact nature of words, one may still look at and enjoy speaking of the moon without needing to "handle moon rocks." The matrix of understanding must be built and woven.