Tao is Crap without Qi

[Buddy]

Stuart,

Please don't explain to me the obvious. And certainly don't question my knowlege or skill without knowing me.

Taijiquan is a particular thing. Taiji is just a concept. It seemed clear, in using the term Taiji, as taijiquan is commonly called, meant the martial art of taijiquan. Again, a rock is not a duck. And we're not friends yet so just call me Buddy.

[Cameron]

If there is anyone on this site that can be called an authority on Tai Chi it is probably Buddy. I don't think anyone else has studied directly with BK Frantzis for 10 years, right?

[Stuart Shaw]

Stuart,

Please don't explain to me the obvious. And certainly don't question my knowlege or skill without knowing me.

Taijiquan is a particular thing. Taiji is just a concept. It seemed clear, in using the term Taiji, as taijiquan is commonly called, meant the martial art of taijiquan. Again, a rock is not a duck. And we're not friends yet so just call me Buddy.

 

 

With due respects Buddy all we have to know each other is the words we post. Your earlier post demonstrated your willingness to belittle a recognised teacher of Tao apparently without any experience of what he had to offer and you made assertions that were IMO incorrect.

 

As a student and teacher of both Tai Ji and Tai Chi Chuan my experience and the experience of my students empirically demonstrates that understanding the essence of Tai Ji movement goes a long way to enhance Tai Chi Chuan Shen Fa.

 

Taiji is just a concept? Taiji is life ... it is a mistake to think that Taoists create concepts and theories about life, to say so implies that Tao is a rational enterprise. Taoists experience life directly and the subsequent teachings arise as a direct translation of that experience.

 

For example experiencing Taiji movement engages the practitioner in a purely subjective experience of Tao. The natural rise and fall, expansion and contraction of Qi is a living reality of Taiji. The 'model' and description of the Taiji symbol is the best language to transmit this experience to another person in the hope that they may discover their own experience of Tao.

 

When is a statue of a duck a duck and when is it just a rock?

[Uncle Fester]

.

Edited September 28, 2021 by darebak

[Wayfarer64]

I have been confused and annoyed by several elements of this thread. It may be that the crap reference just started this thing in the wrong direction, it put me off at first. Sort of like saying Buddhism is crap without contemplation. Some things are a given and need no explanation, others we will argue ad nauseum...

 

Mr. Shaw, Sir- you seem to have jumped into this swarm of Bums with assumptions that may not be based in reality. I would never question your sincerity as a teacher but please do not assume you have more to add to this forum than anyone else in terms of experience or knowledge. Please, get aquainted first. I have not been here very long, but the general level of knowledge and experience is pretty wonderous.

 

I assume that practicing Taoism asks us to be good listeners before we can assume positions of authority. Hubris is often a mistaken self identification when the nature of what we are trying to explain should humble us. So I would say that entering a forum with such challenging words is a questionable enterprise...I do not mean this as an admonishment - I hope these comments are not taken as stones meant to be ducked!

we each have our own ways to be in the Tao.

 

that being said-

 

Some of the quandry here is explained by our problems with spelling Chinese words in English and using words that have several meanings to express just one part of the Big Picture... It would seem that we are on yet another roller-coaster here.-Good luck with this one fellas...

 

Namaste

[freeform]

hmmm I feel like I'm (at least partially) responsible for all this...

 

I'm sure it's difficult to talk about something that you've been doing for years without emotional energy motivating your words...

 

Just to clarify - I fully accept that Buddy's (and thus Frantzis') method is of great importance, it teaches so many things; and I still hold that learning to move in flow (a very yin practice that ime establishes great energetic/creative flow) is still a very usefull skill to have... and I'm sure that Frantzis' method takes the feminine essence of flow and pairs it with the masculine essence of stability and centeredness...

 

but in my practice, I've chosen a different path for the time being, and I'm happy to develop flow by doing Sonnon type excersises and 'dancing about'...

 

and others might have taken yet another route...

 

I just feel like the humour has been lost in this thread... we really don't need to defend anything from anyone...

 

anyhoo - I hope Stuart sees that the Bums aren't an overly serious, confrontational bunch, and that Buddy sees we're not a bunch of new age jokers...

 

[Wayfarer64]

Dear freeform,

 

I consider myself a Marxist.

As in Groucho.

Which makes me a confrontational joker.

 

This is only to say some of us are confrontational or jokers without being those things on a regular basis.

 

Namaste

[Stuart Shaw]

I have been confused and annoyed by several elements of this thread. It may be that the crap reference just started this thing in the wrong direction, it put me off at first. Sort of like saying Buddhism is crap without contemplation. Some things are a given and need no explanation, others we will argue ad nauseum...

 

Mr. Shaw, Sir- you seem to have jumped into this swarm of Bums with assumptions that may not be based in reality. I would never question your sincerity as a teacher but please do not assume you have more to add to this forum than anyone else in terms of experience or knowledge. Please, get aquainted first. I have not been here very long, but the general level of knowledge and experience is pretty wonderous.

 

I assume that practicing Taoism asks us to be good listeners before we can assume positions of authority. Hubris is often a mistaken self identification when the nature of what we are trying to explain should humble us. So I would say that entering a forum with such challenging words is a questionable enterprise...I do not mean this as an admonishment - I hope these comments are not taken as stones meant to be ducked!

we each have our own ways to be in the Tao.

 

that being said-

 

Some of the quandry here is explained by our problems with spelling Chinese words in English and using words that have several meanings to express just one part of the Big Picture... It would seem that we are on yet another roller-coaster here.-Good luck with this one fellas...

 

Namaste

 

Your comments are totally in order my friend (can I call you that, I treat everyone as a friend until they prove otherwise). And I confer that posting the article in general forum may not have been the most appropriate way to deliver it. I certainly did try and introduce it with a specific disclaimer saying I was merely seeking feedback ... and the feedback has been most welcomed.

 

The article is presented in a strong manner ... and I agree that it may indeed be too strong as it can be seen that the real message has been saboutaged by the confrontational delivery. In which case I have failed in my intent and have taken all due corrective feedback.

 

So let me continue the train of thought instead with a simple question:

 

Do you think that Qi is the essence of Taoist study? If so how may we best obtain our own personal experience of Qi?

[Taiji Bum]

Do you think that Qi is the essence of Taoist study? If so how may we best obtain our own personal experience of Qi?

 

From the way you asked the question, the essence of Taoist study would be Tao and not Qi.

[Cameron]

It's a deep question. I think I remember Ken Cohen saying all real qigong masters focus on Yi and not Qi. Yi(awareness, or however you may translate it) is the focus and Qi(life energy) is the by product. This makes sense because in most qigong forms your really getting into the awareness aspect of the practice. Going through different movements and postures or just holding postures.

 

So, I would say the most important thing in Taoist study is Yi and the cultivation of awareness and Qi is the natural by product that flows from proper cultivation of Yi.

 

But Ime open to other points of view on this.

[Todd]

 

Do you think that Qi is the essence of Taoist study? If so how may we best obtain our own personal experience of Qi?

 

Some defining of terms is in order here. If "Taoist study" is refering to the realization of the Tao, and "essence" refers to the most fundamental aspect, then I say no. I think Qi has a lot to do with how the world works, and it is quite mysterious and a perception of it brings together many seeemingly disparate elements in a more tangible way. It is the function of the Tao. But I don't think that having an experience of Qi is fundamentally different from banging my toe against a oddly shaped chair and realizing that it is wider than it seems, or that if I always act the same away around someone, I'll tend to get a similar response. It is just another engagement with form, and in some ways, using the word "Qi" can be a impediment to that engagement. This happens when "Qi" is imparted with the magical ability to confer some form of escape or deliverance. If I can just fully understand this one thing, I'll really have something! That ridiculous. It may be fun to realize more of manifestation, and it may be a natural outgrowth of our integrity in dealing with the world, but it can never really satisfy. Taking one class of experiences out of all experiences and believing that they offer a road out to a better land, is to deny the most fundamental truth and hence to suffer. It may be better to have a conscious relationship with one's striving, because eventually it may become apparent that after all of these practices, nothing fundamental has changed. Sure, I'm healthier; I've had neat experiences; I tend to move with more grace, but has that changed the fact that I want something more?

 

Staying with that perception, that nothing will ever satisfy, is a gateway to truth.

 

14

We look but don't see it

and call it indistinct

we listen but don't hear it

and call it faint

we reach but don't grasp it

and call it ethereal

three failed means of knowledge

we weave into one

with no light above

with no shade below

too fine to be named

returning to nothing

this is the formless form

the immaterial image

this is the waxing and waning

we meet without seeing its face

we follow without seeing its back

holding onto this very Way

we rule this very realm

and discover its ancient past

this is the thread of the Way

 

"three failed means to knowledge" I love that line. Keep alive with that.

Edited October 27, 2006 by Todd

[Wayfarer64]

Hi ya'all,

 

My take on the question is closest to Cameron's wherein the essence of Taoist study is in the awareness of (Yi) not the manifestation of (Qi) the interactive web of all things known, imagined and unimaginable, ( that are ultimitly encluded into The One that "represents" the ever-changing untouchable Tao).

 

As I've written elsewhere- that content (Yi) and form (Qi) are utilized in a context (Tao)... This while being interactive with the rest of the forms found in the context. How we manifest the content and then the form becomes our sphere of activity. We deside our Way of doing and being. This is where "right action" and the developement of our characters and personalities gets changed, (or not).

 

We either build awareness and the power to transform ourselves using that awareness or not... So for me Qi is empty without Yi and the mastery of Qi without Yi would have a very harmful and negative energy to it.

 

So to get back to the start of this thread - I guess I'd say that Qi is crap without Yi...And the Tao is beyond its components. I have noticed many parts of this existence that seemed to be quite lacking in Qi yet & still blithely part of the Tao.

[Buddy]

I'm with Darrin on this one. Tao is. While I enjoy neigong, Tao is already here. Why are special formulae and techniques needed for finding what is right here?

Stuart,

The statue is never a duck. It still won't swim.

 

"With due respects Buddy all we have to know each other is the words we post."

 

Well, as you see from Cam's response some know of me here, just not you. BTW I can only agree with your response.

[Wayfarer64]

I bet a stoned duck swims in circles...or heads to the snack bar for some quackers...

[Stuart Shaw]

Ah a perfect example of how adjustment yields rewards.

 

Thank you for your posts.

 

Tis true tis true ... focusing only on one element of life will only bring limited results. To not cultivate Jing, Qi, and Shen as one will only create dysfunction and imbalance.

 

Thank you thank you ... and the duck says thank you to.