Tao is Crap without Qi

[Stuart Shaw]

[freeform]

[thelerner]

What? I always thought Qi was clarified butter?

 

Michael

[Wayfarer64]

Mr. Shaw,

Welcome!

I am glad you got that message out. You seem to have a deep interest in these matters- as we all do.

The tone may have been a bit off-putting to some of us. But the points you make are interesting, and worth delving into -on your part - to form your current path among the many here.

 

Most of us accept qi as a basic concept and physical part of our experiences as practicioners and seekers alike. Developing qi is integral to most practices relating to the Taoist traditions.

 

However, I find your equation to be over-simplified. Still- Keep it comin' ! There is room for everything in the Tao Bums -as in the Tao!

 

Michael-

 

Me thinks we need to reclarify this:

 

Chi's root word is not related to any food stuffs that I know of. Not even chilly con carne...

 

Spelling confuses us all when it comes to Chinese words.

If Peking can become Bejing and the local signs don't even get changed, some of us are bound to get befuddled -

 

So-

I believe you have confused Qi (or chi) with Ghee which is oddly enough mostly used in Indian ( the sub-continent one) -cooking.

I am shocked by such an unusual mistake from such a lerned man-

by the way-

Processed ghee is called ghee-whiz, but this product must not be used to grease the palms of politicians and other such low characters. They prefer hard cash, over-seas vacations and/or sexual favors. If you on the other-hand, will take chocalate, think about a run for office in Hershey Pennsylvania, it would be a natural. And maybe Cloud Recluse would run as well -the town may have enough chocolate to satisfy both of ya! Maybe.

Now I'm hungry-bye!

[thelerner]

 

Michael

 

Don't underestimate the power of qi or ghee or chili con carnii. I've seen TM'ers triple there seated levitation with just one bowl.

 

I also remember the story of an older indian woman who asked a famous swami how to reawaken her sex life. The swami said 'You're bodies must be full of qi inside and out'.

'Yes swami' she says and goes to the supermarket and asks for some.

A week later she sees the swami and says 'The sex is great now swami, except we keep sliding off the bed and have to go to the washroom too much'

Edited October 21, 2006 by thelerner

[thelerner]

On a more serious note I find the names of Qi interesting. I've been working on sacred sounds. How and where sounds connect to your body. If you take a look at the names listed:

 

Polynesian: mana

Australian Aboriginal: maban

Egyptian: ka

Greek: pneuma

Roman/Christianity: Spiritus

Hebrew: ruah

Inuit: inua, sila

Leni Lenape: manetuwak

Norse: seid

Druidry: Awen

Yoruba: oloddumare

European alchemy and philosophy: aether, (or ether), quintessence

Hindu philosophy: prana

Arabic or Islamic: Baraka (or Barakah)

 

Its no coincidence that many of the words resemble each other. Particularly the ones from the older cultures. Two syllables, one with an Ah. The Ahh sound is widely used as a warming heart sound. Uuuu is a lower gut sound that reverberates upward. Ennnn and Emmm's start in the throat and move downward.

 

Most of the words reverb with power, some more then others.

 

Thats my serious thought for today, expect no more from me

 

Michael

[Stuart Shaw]

* sigh of relief *

 

Thanks folks for your fine and constructive responses.

 

I recognise that all models and descriptions remove the truth from the source. They can be useful however to point one's awareness in the direction of the truth ... experiential truth.

 

In essence models and descriptions can be useful teaching tools. Once the practitioner has experienced the truth that the model is trying to describe then the model is no longer needed.

 

It's like when learning Tai Chi Chuan you have the models of:

 

** Yin / Yang form

** Open / Close form

** Spiral Qi form etc.

 

Once these models are integrated they dissolve, and you are left with Tai Chi.

 

I know also that many people here are familiar with Qi ... but because of the open public nature of the group there are a lot of newbies who may be reading about Tao for the first time. I felt it would be remiss not to make the article 'stand on its own'.

 

Also I will be open and honest in saying that I do publish my articles elsewhere and am a teacher of sorts ... I am not here for self-promotion so I will leave it at that.

 

I present my article not to preach but to get corrective feedback from your differing perspectives ... you have done this and helped me refine my article further.

 

My intent with the article was to help the reader find their own experience of Qi. If my use of words, descriptions, and models have interfered with this then I need to adjust how I present my suggestions.

 

Thank you again one and all.

[freeform]

Hey Stuart - dont get me wrong, I did enjoy your article, in fact it would be a great place for a newb to start! When I explain 'chi' to people I usually suggest that it's a metaphor for what's going on in the body - the only reason for this is to get them out of their head thinking about 'what the hell is chi' and back into their bodies to actually feel it.

 

The easiest chi to feel is various emotional chi... so I tell people to remember (or even play) as a song/ piece of music that moves them - then when they're listening to it (whether in the mind or with their ears) I tell em to direct their attention inwards and notice what's happening 'inside'... When they 'get it', it's like a whole new world opens up for them - "wow it's moving up my spine into my heart" etc... "so what happens if you move it to the belly?" etc. So not only do they get a sensory experience of it, but also experience of moving it with intention and the effects of having the chi in different places in the body.

 

I also sometimes frame chi as 'attention' or 'awareness' - it's especially usefull when explaining the effects of chi in relationships between people.

 

And I was, in fact, pretty impressed with the list of alternative cultural names for chi... Michael - I think you'd enjoy the ancient Hawaiian language... It's as you describe the vowels, rhythm and consonants make a very definite energetic effects... even 'mana' feels like a very nurturing sound... maybe a bit like 'mama' (is it a coincidence that most cultures have 'mama' as the word for mother?)

 

Stuart - publicise away!! I'd be interested in what you do... you've already made it clear that you're not trying to sell us stuff.

 

all the best

f

[Verv]

I've read Tao Teh Ching and Chuang Tzu, I am working on Lieh-tzu and Yang-tzu... I have not heard any suggestins that we devote significant amounts of ones day to such activities. I've heard that one should consider hopping in a circle and clapping your hands, pretending you are flying like a bird, but this was a mere illustration of the carefree, joyous nature of one of the old sages, it has nothing to do with the other... I've heard that one should flip over your bath tub and begin beating it outside of your house, singing loudly and frightening people... But again: nothing about meditation or Qi exercises...

 

Personally, I think mental perfection comes from the mind... And even so: isn't perfection an entirely relative (and perhaps even unattainable) term?

 

One should take care of their body, and this is talked about, but it is not gone into any detail. I am guessing that jogging, doing push-ups, etc. is jsut as effective in health as any of these other things...

 

And on the other hand: Chuang-tzu recites some stories about people who were also incredibly unhealthy; people who were hunchbacks, people who were cripples or armless, etc. -- some who were so exaggerated they are portraits of disease and unhealthiness like you've never seen...

 

And they didn't care, considered their body their natural form, and really had no concerns over it...

 

Often times Chuang-tzu talks about various sages and they attained it through simplicity, not exercise.

 

The butcher in one of his teachings achieved perfection in butchering by not thinking while he cut the meat, and just cutting as he pleased.

 

The wheelwright perfected the touch of not hitting too hard or too soft in another.

 

Nothing about any of that.

[Stuart Shaw]

** appreciative bow **

 

Wow! Not only constructive criticism but a willingness to develop on an idea. I love you guys already!

 

"The easiest chi to feel is various emotional chi... so I tell people to remember (or even play) as a song/ piece of music that moves them - then when they're listening to it (whether in the mind or with their ears) I tell em to direct their attention inwards and notice what's happening 'inside'... When they 'get it', it's like a whole new world opens up for them - "wow it's moving up my spine into my heart" etc... "so what happens if you move it to the belly?" etc. So not only do they get a sensory experience of it, but also experience of moving it with intention and the effects of having the chi in different places in the body."

 

Thank you for this FF ... I see this as a nice intro to Qi, may I use this elsewhere?

 

And yes the article was certainly written as a intro for people investigating Qi.

 

Discussing this article with others has reminded me of where the inspiration came from ... that being freeform Tai Ji. As someone with tactile perception of Qi it is an incredibly awesome experience to feel Qi flowing to its own nature and letting go and simply moving where the Qi goes.

 

I breathe as breath leads

the river of life flows forth

the leaf finds the sea.

 

Thank you to all...

[Wayfarer64]

And I was, in fact, pretty impressed with the list of alternative cultural names for chi... Michael - I think you'd enjoy the ancient Hawaiian language... It's as you describe the vowels, rhythm and consonants make a very definite energetic effects... even 'mana' feels like a very nurturing sound... maybe a bit like 'mama' (is it a coincidence that most cultures have 'mama' as the word for mother?)

 

Yeah I was thrilled to read that too!- The list is a real ear opener. I want to try creating a poem around it that may actually become a chant for me to try as a supplament to the Om Mane Padme Hum which I typically use to center myself. I very much like the "One World" aspect of such an exercise in linguistic transcendence, or more to the point-centering.

 

The power of words is way beyond swords...I've mentioned the linguistic "Ma factor" in another thread -being a pretty common root sound for mother and having a seemingly inner call for/about nurturing - depending on intonation.

 

( the world could use a good qi mantra these days- what with global wobble, warming, warfare and other double-u's making things uncomfortible for so many people & species.)

 

I'll get back with my efforts sometime soon I hope-

 

Namaste

[freeform]

Thank you for this FF ... I see this as a nice intro to Qi, may I use this elsewhere?

 

ofcourse you can!

[thaddeus]

The power of words is way beyond swords...

words...sword...coincidence? i wonder if they have a common root word..

T

[Stuart Shaw]

Here is, as best as words can describe, my experience of Qi when I play with freeform Tai Ji.

 

 

I breathe and the breath rises within me,

indescribable flows through and around.

My body moves through no thought of my own,

My heart beats in tune with inaudible sound.

 

The breath flows and I am carried along,

Invisible Qi following its course.

Immersed in true reality of self,

self dissolving with the mysterious source.

 

 

----

 

Or this...

 

 

Now the tree breathes me in

and breathes me out

a leaf falling

to fall and be caught by flowing stream

Twisting, turning

dancing amongst shards of light

the world turns

I turn with it

I breathe

and become myself.

 

----

 

And even this...

 

 

I feel the cocoon

Dancing web across my skin

Shining from within

[freeform]

Here is, as best as words can describe, my experience of Qi when I play with freeform Tai Ji.

 

I'm liking the sound of this freeform Tai Ji.. (for more reasons than one - obviously )

 

I sometimes try doing spontaneous movements after a practice session, I tend to dance around - I bet it's a funny sight. However I feel my movements are un-refined... at some points I feel like my ego kicks in and it's no longer the chi moving me, but me forcing some move. This is beneficial as I can notice and callibrate the difference between effortless movement and ego-based movement, but I'd like to learn how to refine the movements.

 

I know that these guys teach their own version which they call "Wuji Style Free-Form Qigong" - with 9 basic categories of movement... I'd like to find something along these lines.

 

Stuart where did you learn your free-form Tai Ji? How does it work? (as in do you have set movement 'styles' and move between them with effortlessness or how?)

[Stuart Shaw]

Stuart where did you learn your free-form Tai Ji? How does it work? (as in do you have set movement 'styles' and move between them with effortlessness or how?)

 

A good start is to get Al Huang's "Embrace Tiger Return to Mountain -- The Essence of Tai Ji"

 

If you know Tai Chi movement and know how to coordinate breath with movement then you will find Tai Ji movement spontaneously.

 

You are getting lost in your movement because:

 

a) Your are not staying connected with your Tan Tien

You are not following the full cycles of Yin and Yang

c) You are not trully following your breath

 

You start in stillness and just breathe ... really feeling the breath in your body ... taking full breaths from your Tan Tien of equal Yin and Yang.

 

If a movement 'happens' you simply follow it ... breathe ... following the full Yin/Yang cycle of the movement. The trick is to remember to keep 'returning to yourself' in that you always return to your Tan Tien following your movement.

 

If you start thinking about your movement, sink into your feet and into your Tan Tien and just breathe.

 

One exercise is to practice the raising arms movement at the beginning of the Tai Chi Chuan form. Following full breaths of Yin and Yang you just keep this movement going really feeling how the Qi is moving through the movement.

 

Then you may spontaneously feel a movement happen ... trust it and follow it.

 

Enjoy

[Buddy]

Please. Al Huang? A joke. Where's the shen fa?

First of all, Tao is everpresent and all pervasive. Qi is many things, as has been said. Digestive qi, earth qi, mental qi, etc.

[Stuart Shaw]

Please. Al Huang? A joke. Where's the shen fa?

First of all, Tao is everpresent and all pervasive. Qi is many things, as has been said. Digestive qi, earth qi, mental qi, etc.

 

I see no joke with Al Huang's teaching ... perhaps I am slow so you had better explain.

 

"First of all, Tao is everpresent and all pervasive. Qi is many things, as has been said. Digestive qi, earth qi, mental qi, etc."

 

The above article doesn't disagree with this comment ... again what is your point?

[Buddy]

First of all, we're talking about taijiquan. This is a martial art that is sometimes used as a method of personal development. The way of moving (shenfa) in the Chinese internal martial arts is a very specific thing. It's what makes it so special for martial and health applications. No shenfa=no taiji. Soft flowing movement with happy thoughts is not taiji. No shenfa in Mr. Huang, that I see. But perhaps I am slow.

[freeform]

Hey Buddy - not all Tai Ji is martial. Spontaneous, mindless movement is important imo - whether it's dancing or martial aplication... so I dont want to have to spend 20 years perfecting my form before I get into this mindless movement (this is what you call 'shenfa'?). Do you have any (non-martial) recomendations on how to do this?

[Buddy]

free,

All Taiji is martial. Just not all tai chi is taiji. You can a rock a duck but that won't make it swim. I don't think mindless movement IS important. In fact I don't think mindless anything is important. If it's for you, great, but it's not taiji is all. Shen fa means body method. In IMA it means using whole body power with internal strength. Maybe you might like the whirling actions Sufi dervishes do?

[thaddeus]

free,

All Taiji is martial. Just not all tai chi is taiji. You can a rock a duck but that won't make it swim. I don't think mindless movement IS important. In fact I don't think mindless anything is important. If it's for you, great, but it's not taiji is all. Shen fa means body method. In IMA it means using whole body power with internal strength. Maybe you might like the whirling actions Sufi dervishes do?

I guess another way of saying this is that in taiji power needs to be expressed to the extremities (usually fingers)..so if you're just dancing around mindlessly, it's cool to do that, you just can't call it tai chi chuan. Also from a health perspective, the mindless dancing might be relaxing, but it will kill the joints and ruin your health in the long run. Real taiji movement is specifically trained and the side effect is improved health and healthy joints and body. Anyway, my two cents on this..

T

[freeform]

I often do Winn's 'Taichi for Enlightenment' - it's a seremonial form and has absolutely no martial application... I've done Taichi Chuan, so I do know the difference. You might argue that Winn's form 'is not really taichi' - I dont want to get into semantics.

 

'Mindless' movement is moving from your LTT (or meridian or element, but the centre of the actual movement comes from the LTT) with your mind (UTT) being silent. It's not 'dancing around aimlessly'.

 

I sometimes have spontaneous movement from doing organ/element meditation... each of the different elements have different characteristics to the movements they produce in me - and I cant really distinguish the differences (although I can feel them).

 

I think that this kind of movement is very much usefull, because you learn to be in the present while moving... once this is callibrated, you'll know when your doing it (and when not) during 'day-to-day' life.

 

A lot of planning, thinking, calculating is not needed (and actually impedes development), learning to move without these distractions can teach you to do it in every part of your life. And yes - I'm sure this is what you learn doing martial arts for dozens of years, but I'm pretty sure it can be done much quicker and easier without the martial application.

[thelerner]

My Aikido teacher used to say, In Tai chi they let you use 4 ounces of strength, he would allow us 2 pounds. The power always came from the core, the arms were just relaxed extension. I'm not a tai chi person, but I read Al Huangs early works. He seems more of a dance focused Tai chi player. Though without taking a classes with him its hard to say. I do think that Taichi, even in dance mode has many benefits.

 

After years in the martial arts I do think its the ability to be calm, think clearly, move strongly that saves and prolongs your life.

 

 

Michael

[Stuart Shaw]

First of all, we're talking about taijiquan. This is a martial art that is sometimes used as a method of personal development. The way of moving (shenfa) in the Chinese internal martial arts is a very specific thing. It's what makes it so special for martial and health applications. No shenfa=no taiji. Soft flowing movement with happy thoughts is not taiji. No shenfa in Mr. Huang, that I see. But perhaps I am slow.

 

 

Firstly my friend it is best if you have your definitions correct. Taiji is the yin yang symbol ... "the Taiji is the infinite, essential, and fundamental principle of evolutionary change that actualizes all potential states of being through the self-organizing integration of complementary existential polarities." Wiki

 

The term Tai Ji on it's own and in it's authentic usage is the root of all Taoist practices and does not, as you have mistakenly assumed or learned, automatically imply Tai Chi Chuan.

 

Tai Chi Chuan is the form created using Tai Ji as its guiding principles.

 

So Tai Ji movement is the precursor of Tai Chi Chuan Shen Fa.

 

Playing freeform Tai Ji is not just 'dancing around' my friend nor is it simply 'soft flowing movement with happy thoughts', it is living the pure spontaneous manifestation of Tao. The secret is Qi perception and an adherence to the guidelines of Qi cultivation ... full breath, awareness and integration of the three Tan Tien etc.

 

I have seen students train Tai Chi Chuan for years without achieving Taiji, and I have seen students reach Taiji in one afternoon with no formal Tai Chi Chuan training. To do Tai Chi Chuan without knowing the Taiji that Al Huang teaches is IMO "like a waterbug skimming the surface trying to claim he knows the ocean floor".

 

Best you experience something before commenting on it with a superficial perspective.