Keeping it in perspective

[Aetherous]

Just pondering...

 

An inner alchemy teacher charges $3600 for a seminar. You spend it, since the teacher is a great master, and you learn how to benefit yourself alchemically. You feel energy moving and experience some transformations of body mind and spirit.

 

Awesome.

 

So you're walking downtown and see an emaciated homeless man sitting on the street. You give him $5, because you're a spiritual person. That's pretty generous and it will get him some supplies to survive or else a warm meal. It's a very nice gesture.

 

But you've spent $3600 on yourself...on the ability to feel energy!

 

To make this cost equal, you'd have to give $5 to 720 other homeless people!

 

Not saying charity is a spiritual thing...but just thinking, what the hell is the point of what we're doing? To experience energy flowing through our MCO? That's the pinnacle of your achievement?!

 

It's good to keep this stuff in perspective. What's important in your life? Bowing before some supposed master, who causes you to waste your money fruitlessly? Where is the heart...where is the humanity in this?

 

Inner alchemy is cool and has its place, but...yeah.

[Protector]

I just want to rule the world

[Bubbles]

Thank you for bringing up the topic.

Actually I have been thinking in the same lines for a few months.

This is not just morality, it is first and foremost common sense and common decency.

 

Thanks again.

[Ish]

Very biased, For the intensive you are speaking of, the purpose isnt just to feel energy. You can do that in 5 minutes by yourself.

So you're saying inner alchemy is less worthy than giving $5 to a homeless person who will probably spend it on a pack of cigarettes... interesting.

[Encephalon]

If I understand the equation correctly, we empower ourselves so that we may work on behalf of others. Being tender-hearted and sensitive to the suffering of others, without the empowerment to act on their behalf can open us up to the collective grief in the world and leave us in a chronic state of weeping. Spiritual empowerment opens our hearts but creates the courage we need to witness the grief without becoming derailed by it.

 

In the end, we are all wounded healers.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Encephalon

[Ish]

If I understand the equation correctly, we empower ourselves so that we may work on behalf of others. Being tender-hearted and sensitive to the suffering of others, without the empowerment to act on their behalf can open you up to the collective grief in the world and leave you in a chronic state of weeping. Spiritual empowerment opens our hearts but creates the courage we need to witness the grief without becoming derailed by it.

 

In the end, we are all wounded healers.

 

 

True. It is said that one of the highest form of charity is spiritual teaching, if you don't have the attainment yourself, how can you help others on the levels such as energy healing/development or spiritual teaching.

[Encephalon]

True. It is said that one of the highest form of charity is spiritual teaching, if you don't have the attainment yourself, how can you help others on the levels such as energy healing/development or spiritual teaching.

 

That's a point well taken, but if we speak simply in terms of community involvement, of doing all the necessary dirty work of making other lives less miserable, we still have to summon a great deal of courage and empathy to withstand their suffering. For people predisposed to matters of the heart, who are often sensitive to begin with, the fortifying effect of cultivation is almost a prerequisite.

 

Maybe I'm projecting my own experience, but I do see large numbers of people going quietly mad with grief over what we're doing to our world and to each other.

[Bubbles]

If I understand the equation correctly, we empower ourselves so that we may work on behalf of others. Being tender-hearted and sensitive to the suffering of others, without the empowerment to act on their behalf can open us up to the collective grief in the world and leave us in a chronic state of weeping. Spiritual empowerment opens our hearts but creates the courage we need to witness the grief without becoming derailed by it.

 

In the end, we are all wounded healers.

 

This is true. But we can receive spiritual empowerment from true legit teachers for a nothing when we compare to the thousand dollars charged by others.

 

I am a true believer of what alchemy can do, but I am convinced that most of the spiritual work we can do for real to heal our wounds has nothing to do with alchemy or can be done without it by other paths. Daoism is not the ultimate path. If I have a look, I can see that the teacher who put me on the Way never taught me energetic practices. He did his best to make me understand the importance of 24/7 awareness, lucidity, integrity, compassion, because he made see how powerful and screwed up, deluded a yogi (in general sense of it) can be without awareness, lucidity, integrity, compassion. And he never charged me. He let me decide how much I should give for the food, the shelter and the teaching. Writing this I am almost in tears, because he is dead now, and I am an unworthy student.

 

Thanks again Scotty,

[Birch]

I suspect without some kind of cultivation I wouldn't want to be in a place where I even want to help anyone else.

 

Another perspective, is that once people have opened up to "that" they won't be able to do otherwise.

[Vmarco]

Edited January 2, 2012 by Vmarco

[Bubbles]

[Aetherous]

I am a true believer of what alchemy can do, but I am convinced that most of the spiritual work we can do for real to heal our wounds has nothing to do with alchemy or can be done without it by other paths. Daoism is not the ultimate path. If I have a look, I can see that the teacher who put me on the Way never taught me energetic practices. He did his best to make me understand the importance of 24/7 awareness, lucidity, integrity, compassion, because he made see how powerful and screwed up, deluded a yogi (in general sense of it) can be without awareness, lucidity, integrity, compassion. And he never charged me. He let me decide how much I should give for the food, the shelter and the teaching. Writing this I am almost in tears, because he is dead now, and I am an unworthy student.

 

Sounds like a great teacher and friend.

[Jetsun]

I wonder if you are doing charitable works out of a place of guilt and fear or for self interest like many Christians do are you just making that neurosis grow and spread? True charity is to give with no regard for the consequences for yourself, but to be in that place takes a huge amount of inner work in my view otherwise your charity will be motivated by sick or egoic reasons which just perpetuates and traps you in the circle of your madness.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Jetsun

[Vmarco]

Come back when you will really know something about Descartes. You don't know what I am talking about and you just drop your usual known it all comments. Sorry but your posting style is really untimely.

 

So,...1. it must be assumed that you disagree that Descartes ever quoted that axiom.

 

2. Did you not post, "Daoism is not the ultimate path. If I have a look, I can see that the teacher who put me on the Way never taught me energetic practices. He did his best to make me understand the importance of 24/7 awareness, lucidity, integrity, compassion"

 

3. If you believe a member does not know what you're talking about,...perhaps you did not articulate it well enough to be understood in the different way that you understand that vocabulary,...perhaps you are using, I suppose, an alternate dictionary. You could post a link to your use of the English words that you use,, so members who understand the Oxford definitions could better understand that simple statements like "Daoism is not the ultimate path." doesn't really mean "Daoism is not the ultimate path."

 

4. Addressing the above 3 points would be much better than ad hominem.

 

V

[Aetherous]

Well, if you're charitable out of guilt, you're still doing good for others! So, no matter what, it's good to keep giving, like the "self-interested" Christians.

 

Anyway, it was just an example to illustrate the point...that there's a bit too much "spiritual materialism" when it comes to energy work methods.

[Informer]

This is true. But we can receive spiritual empowerment from true legit teachers for a nothing when we compare to the thousand dollars charged by others.

 

I am a true believer of what alchemy can do, but I am convinced that most of the spiritual work we can do for real to heal our wounds has nothing to do with alchemy or can be done without it by other paths. Daoism is not the ultimate path. If I have a look, I can see that the teacher who put me on the Way never taught me energetic practices. He did his best to make me understand the importance of 24/7 awareness, lucidity, integrity, compassion, because he made see how powerful and screwed up, deluded a yogi (in general sense of it) can be without awareness, lucidity, integrity, compassion. And he never charged me. He let me decide how much I should give for the food, the shelter and the teaching. Writing this I am almost in tears, because he is dead now, and I am an unworthy student.

 

Thanks again Scotty,

 

Sorry to hear that bubbles, as all attachments, death of one close will cause pain when that attachment becomes severed. Same happens when you attach things to love and honor and courage. None of those things are inherently with attachment, we decide for them to be that. Do you think it is possible to prepare in advance of a loved ones death to be without pain?

 

Only if your love for one is no greater than your love for all.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Informer

[C T]

This is true. But we can receive spiritual empowerment from true legit teachers for a nothing when we compare to the thousand dollars charged by others.

 

I am a true believer of what alchemy can do, but I am convinced that most of the spiritual work we can do for real to heal our wounds has nothing to do with alchemy or can be done without it by other paths. Daoism is not the ultimate path. If I have a look, I can see that the teacher who put me on the Way never taught me energetic practices. He did his best to make me understand the importance of 24/7 awareness, lucidity, integrity, compassion, because he made see how powerful and screwed up, deluded a yogi (in general sense of it) can be without awareness, lucidity, integrity, compassion. And he never charged me. He let me decide how much I should give for the food, the shelter and the teaching. Writing this I am almost in tears, because he is dead now, and I am an unworthy student.

 

Thanks again Scotty,

You are very fortunate to have connected with a teacher of this calibre. Such beings are a rarity in today's world. You must have done a lot of work on your self. Keep it up.

[Protector]

Maybe I should join the normal people already

Even this place is getting boring

What else is there left to do? Become immortal? The motivation of immortals was to have live long enough to reach enlightenment in their lifetime. I don't caaaaaaaare, you can't even reach enlightenment by setting it your goal, relaxing would be more beneficial for it. Maybe that's all there's left to do, go for a walk one day and then just get it without thinking about it. When I try to learn something new, it's tied to something I knew before. For health and chi stuff, I have neigong that gives me frikin' regeneration abilities, what more is there to want? I didn't even want to get spiritual on myself, it just happened.

 

 

 

Yo Dardon, how is that running stuff, any good?

[Cameron]

These days I just think you just have a destiny for things our you don't.

 

The feeling or quality I look for is if it is somewhat effortless and joyful to undertake any action or is it burdemsome, difficult and stressful.

 

I think the days of having to suffer excessively to recieve high teachings are over. Just be a good person. If it feels right go for it. Give that homeless person money or take the retreat. If it doesn't feel right don't worry about it.

 

One major thing that I got from Buddhism is to learn to trust yourself. Not constantly look to others for what is "right action".

 

Listen to some Adyashanti retreats. He deals with these sorts of questions from students extensively and the answers he gives are from an awakened perspective.

 

Cam

[konchog uma]

Give that homeless person money or take the retreat. If it doesn't feel right don't worry about it.

 

One major thing that I got from Buddhism is to learn to trust yourself. Not constantly look to others for what is "right action".

 

right on

[Bubbles]

So,...1. it must be assumed that you disagree that Descartes ever quoted that axiom.

 

2. Did you not post, "Daoism is not the ultimate path. If I have a look, I can see that the teacher who put me on the Way never taught me energetic practices. He did his best to make me understand the importance of 24/7 awareness, lucidity, integrity, compassion"

 

3. If you believe a member does not know what you're talking about,...perhaps you did not articulate it well enough to be understood in the different way that you understand that vocabulary,...perhaps you are using, I suppose, an alternate dictionary. You could post a link to your use of the English words that you use,, so members who understand the Oxford definitions could better understand that simple statements like "Daoism is not the ultimate path." doesn't really mean "Daoism is not the ultimate path."

 

4. Addressing the above 3 points would be much better than ad hominem.

 

V

 

1. I deny the appropriateness of quoting Descartes here. Awareness is the realization of something (Oxford dictionary) so it encompasses every-thing and can't be reduced to sensory perceptions. Plus, you don't respect the intellectual context in which Descartes wrote what he wrote. You just cut, paste and assume it applies here when it doesn't. Descartes didn't care about what we are talking about here. He didn't care about oriental spiritual paths and their specific methods.

 

2. "Daoism is not the ultimate path" means to me: other paths are as valid as this one, so one can become strong enough to help others without alchemical work in the Daoist sense and I took my teacher as an illustration of that. So, following the same line of Scotty's thought, I was just thinking that charging thousand of dollars for mystical alchemical daoist formulas could be a consequence of this fact: spirituality is nowadays just another marketplace.

 

3. You don't respect the topic. Please read again Scotty's first post and the following posts. See and recognize that yours is just a opportunity you seize to drop by and troll with the same style, intentions and content as the other posts you usually make. Should I remind you that you have denounced lately (HERE) a "conspiracy of mediocrity" running here at TTB? Well, be consistent with yourself.

[Bubbles]

Sounds like a great teacher and friend.

 

Yes, to me at least and to the people he helped.

[Bubbles]

Sorry to hear that bubbles, as all attachments, death of one close will cause pain when that attachment becomes severed. Same happens when you attach things to love and honor and courage. None of those things are inherently with attachment, we decide for them to be that. Do you think it is possible to prepare in advance of a loved ones death to be without pain?

 

Only if your love for one is no greater than your love for all.

 

Yes, I know what you mean. My tears were not so much about him being dead (because of course, as a kind of bodhisattva, something of his generosity, love and spiritual power remain) but about the realization of how unworthy I am as his student.

[Bubbles]

You are very fortunate to have connected with a teacher of this calibre. Such beings are a rarity in today's world. You must have done a lot of work on your self. Keep it up.

 

Thanks. I would say that the calibre of this teacher was one of love. What a heart he had! It was just amazing.

[C T]

Thanks. I would say that the calibre of this teacher was one of love. What a heart he had! It was just amazing.

An advice given to Menyag Kondrag from Padampa:

 

"If you have a heartfelt desire to practice Dharma, your better refuge is taking a Lama.

The chief object of virtuous practice is benefitting others. The chief object of the

precepts is arousing certainty. The chief object of learning and reflection is to tame

your own mind. The chief object of realization is to dissolve reifications. In so far as

these things are grasped upon for other reasons, they become causes for falling further

into the vicious circles of samsara."

 

I just felt these words deeply when i came across your expression of devotion for your teacher.