Enlightenment from Daoist point of view

[raimonio]

Hi guys. I've been doing some serious reading on Daoist alchemy. I started my spiritual path as a buddhist but now I've also developed an interest on Daoist immortality. Infact I feel like I might be changing my goal from enlightenment to immortality

 

But there are many questions that rise in my mind as a buddhist when I read about Daoism. They seem to contradict each other so much. Like in Daoism you have different spirits and they reincarnate but you dont? I dont understand what is the need for my conciousness if its just a residence for some spirits which I'm not even aware of at this level and then I just die and they are born again in some different conciousness with a different group of spirits? Such a thought seems quite depressing for me tbh. I feel like I'm just a useless container that will be thrown away in the end

 

What about the people who have had NDE's and reported that after death they went trough the same series of events. After death they reviewed their lives and could ask any questions and choose new parents etc. Daoism doesnt seem to correlate with those experiences?

 

And the other question is how does becoming enlightened play in all this? What if you are not immortal but are enlightened what happens then? What about immortals can they be enlightened? How does enlightenment work with the spirits what happens to them? I havent been able to find an answer to these questions.

 

It would be really great if I could integrate Buddhism into Daoism. To me it feels like given the amount of meditation and spiritual practice these two schools have done they should both be right. I have great respect for both schools of thought and wouldnt want to let go of either no matter what I choose to go after.

[Protector]

Long long time ago, when Taoists were new to this whole Taoism thing, Taoists realized that their lives are too short to learn about all the secrets of life and the universe, so they decided to take some time to learn how to live long enough to learn everything and reach enlightenment. With enough time it will happen by itself, right?

So that's the story I know. I heard, an immortal is a person who has enough power to decide when he wants to die.

But now that I look around, it doesn't seem that important to become immortal in this day and age. The world is so connected that anyone can learn anything, so it doesn't take that much time for all this stuff.

Now on reincarnation-ish stuff. As I see it, time and space is an illusion and so is your life. You live now and you lived before and after, even before you were born you already existed and will exist after you die. What's left then? Your spirit does, most people think that they are just their body, but you actually don't end at your skin. You most naturally go in and out and can be projected outside your body. You can meet other people and leave an impression in their hearts a lot of stuff is going on without you knowing. If you could take control of these evens, you would be going into some crazy trips and even believe that you are seeing your past lives and the future and such.

So there are three things I want to say; strong intention forces people to not die, intention lives on without a body, and intention flowing down the stream of the river of the universe makes things effortless.

It's also a funny thing asking about Taoism in general in a forum this big, there are so many people with their own ideas that haven't became solid, yet. It's like blind men trying to figure out how and elephant looks like, but they haven't said everything to each other so there's no big picture, just trunk tail and a huge body.

 

ONE DAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY

[Ish]

I believe traditional Taoist cultivation is dual cultivation of body and mind.

It seems Therevada Buddhism is basically mind cultivation, it is said the wisdom into the nature of things of an Arahat is the same as a Buddha.

But from the Mahayana Bodhisattva Bhumis, they attain multiple physical forms and Bodhisattvas such as Guan Shi Yin are beyond birth and death, so this certainly aligns to the Taoist Yang Shen and immortality.

The Buddhas also have many supernatural powers.

 

So i would guess the highest levels of Immortality and Enlightenment in taoism and buddhism are very similar.

[Informer]

 

Like in Daoism you have different spirits and they reincarnate but you dont? I dont understand what is the need for my conciousness if its just a residence for some spirits which I'm not even aware of at this level and then I just die and they are born again in some different conciousness with a different group of spirits? Such a thought seems quite depressing for me tbh. I feel like I'm just a useless container that will be thrown away in the end

 

What about the people who have had NDE's and reported that after death they went trough the same series of events. After death they reviewed their lives and could ask any questions and choose new parents etc. Daoism doesnt seem to correlate with those experiences?

 

And the other question is how does becoming enlightened play in all this? What if you are not immortal but are enlightened what happens then? What about immortals can they be enlightened? How does enlightenment work with the spirits what happens to them? I havent been able to find an answer to these questions.

 

It would be really great if I could integrate Buddhism into Daoism. To me it feels like given the amount of meditation and spiritual practice these two schools have done they should both be right. I have great respect for both schools of thought and wouldnt want to let go of either no matter what I choose to go after.

 

 

You must have failed at Buddhism. There really is nothing for you to attain. As long as you want to be this or want to be that, you're missing the whole point. What you consider as you, is actually the ego trying to claim shit.

 

No offense intended from my assumption.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Informer

[Informer]

The idea is to cut away all those meaningless idea's and discover what you really are. Then you strengthen that, you aren't building up on whatever you consider as you. It's all the same regardless what religion. Just different kinds of pointers, guides, and interpretations. Someone also said the method of presentation, which I agree.

[raimonio]

I have a very clear view of enlightenment and buddhism dont get me wrong here

 

I know that when it comes to enlightenment there is nothing to obtain and if there is, it can only be reached by not trying to get it. For the record I did not ask for instructions on how to become enlightened. I've already read dozens of books about the subject and read many journals of people getting enlightened so I have a very clear view about it (and yes I know having a theoretical view on enlightenment doesnt make you enlightened! ). But anyways I wish you could spare me from the lecture. All I'm doing here is asking questions that intrigue my mind. I know it is a sin as a buddhist to masturbate with ideas but I like it. I like to play with ideas and theoretics. Infact the very existence of this forum is kind of retarded if you take the kind of attitude that speaking about something and playing with ideas is forbidden I mean in that case the only reply you should do to any kind of a thread would be "drop it, dont think about it, go away". But again this is not an enlightenment-only-thread.

 

I think it is okay to play with ideas as long as you are aware of the fact that in the end they dont matter. I understand that I might've come off seeming like a clueless guy and I thank you for the information, but I already know it. So I wish we could have an actual conversation about the subject.

 

To me it seems like I got answers mainly from people who are buddhists and have the "enlightenment-view". I'm not sure how well Michael Winns articles represent the Daoist idea of immortality but atleast based on his writing it is vastly different from enlightenment. According to him and what I've read elsewhere I've got the impression that there are different things that need to happen so you can become immortal. You cannot become an immortal "just by getting it" like you can when it comes to enlightenment. Daoist immortality what I've read about it says that you have to genereate chi to a certain extent and make all these things with your energy body, learn to tell the difference between all kind of chi's etc. So the picture is very different from buddhist enlightenment where you let go and "come to realize it". I mean someone could (and has been) become enlightened right now. But noone could become an immortal spontainiously. Or then Michael Winn's writings are wrong or I'm not getting it when it comes to Daoist alchemy.

[raimonio]

doublepost

Edited January 4, 2012 by raimonio

[Birch]

As far as I can tell there is a bodily transformation that goes with.

So you are both at once form/formless with (to what level I dunno) control over both. So it's like being a fish in the sea that knows it's also the sea. Continuous but retaining knowledge as a fish with the ability to effect changes on the ocean (by knowing what sand to blow on).

I think a difference might be that buddhists are content to hang out as this, Taoists like to do stuff with it.

My 2 cts

[Marblehead]

You must have failed at Buddhism. There really is nothing for you to attain. As long as you want to be this or want to be that, you're missing the whole point. What you consider as you, is actually the ego trying to claim shit.

 

No offense intended from my assumption.

 

That gave me a chuckle and we all know I'm not even a Buddhist.

[Marblehead]

I think it is okay to play with ideas as long as you are aware of the fact that in the end they dont matter.

 

I just wanted to repeat this because I think it is important.

 

So, yeah, I am a Taoist. But I really cannot speak to your subject at hand as I am not an Alchemist Taoist. There are a few of those animals here though so perhaps in time you will get direct responses to your subject matter.

 

Chuang Tzu said that a short life is the same as a long life. And there really isn't much difference between being a man dreaming you are a butterfly and being a butterfly dreaming that you are a man.

[raimonio]

Okay so it seems that Taoist and Taoist Alchemists are two completely different animals? And the view on immortality seems to differ within the Taoist realm

 

Something I'm learning as the Taoist noob

 

I am particularly interested in Alchemism because it seems so scientific. It's like they have made a science out of becoming an immortal (in the sense that they view it) and also it feels shamanistic which fascinates me on a personal level

[Marblehead]

I am particularly interested in Alchemism because ...

 

Yep. And at this point I will likely not post to the thread again so that I do not take it off topic but will likely continue to read the postings.

 

Best wishes at getting a good discussion going.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Tbh, I think there are few responses here because this title pops up in one form or another probably a few times a year. My un-authoritative understanding is that Taoist Immortality requires about 90% of what is required for Buddhist enlightenment. Buddhism wants to be free from birth and death and suffering "for good" though some will continue in the cycle until everyone is enlightened. Taoist Immortality is not trying to be free from samsara in the same way. I guess it's more like becoming an omnipotent god after death.

 

They are not the same, but in many ways they drive the same car to different destinations. However, if you look at Northern schools of Quan Zhen, the methods are much much more like Buddhism, whereas most other Alchemy schools employ sexual qi gong (eventually, for some time, or continually). I guess part of the reason is that the more vitality you have, the stronger your spirit will be and this will allow you to get further in the quest. This concept is also in Shaolin Chan, but I don't think they ever learn sexual kung fu, which is the same for Northern Quan Zhen mind you.

 

Some of what I've read makes Immortality seem about as attainable as true enlightenment. Others seem like I have more chance flying a rocket to the moon. I'm more concerned with the here and now, personally, but staying in the here and now, one day we might realize the there and then is here and now and here and there and then and now and the moon will jump over the cow