Has Yoga Strayed Too Far From Its Hindu Roots?

[jijaji]

For centuries in India, yoga has been a practice rooted in the Hindu faith. Today, it is a massively popular fitness tradition in the United States, part of a wellness lifestyle for some 15 million Americans. And some Hindus are not happy with the way yoga is treated in the US. The Hindu American Foundation claims the tradition has strayed too far from its Hindu roots and has launched a campaign called 'Take Back Yoga.' In Tell Me More's weekly "Faith Matters" conversation, guest host Farai Chideya puts the question, "who owns yoga?" to Sheetal Shah of the Hindu American Foundation, and Virginia Cowen, a yoga instructor and body trainer.

 

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[jijaji]

[Dainin]

Is this an example of what you mean?

 

Edited January 4, 2012 by Dainin

[Aetherous]

Is what you see in yoga classes today even related to the true hindu roots?

 

When did people in India historically begin practicing these postures in sequence?

[jijaji]

Is this an example of what you mean?

 

 

OMG..!!!

 

[dwai]

Is what you see in yoga classes today even related to the true hindu roots?

 

When did people in India historically begin practicing these postures in sequence?

 

 

Depends on " which class" you are referring to.

 

I was taught fundamentals of yoga by my grandfather. He taught me pranayama more so than asanas. My father and uncle both were yoga practitioners. So asanas were done...exactly which sequence would be (and should be) determined by the individual's constitution. Different people do yoga for different reasons. Some do it for health maintenance reasos while others do it as part of a treatment plan ( my best friend's pneumothorax was cured by yoga) while others do it as part of their spiritual quest.

 

To answer the op, imho, yes. And the reason is that it was "secularized" to make it more palatable for westerners. Its a twin-edged sword...

[RiverSnake]

If you ask a Hindu what Hinduism is he or she will probably give you a blank stare. There is no consensus on what Hinduism is...the culture and religion itself is to rich to come to any conclusion. There are no rules to being a "good Hindu".

 

It is inevitable that cultures will adapt practices to their particular needs and culture of the time. This is impossible to avoid. Most westerners are not concerned with spiritual cultivation so they just take Yoga as something physical...i think this reflects the level of consciousness that most are at in western society.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

[dwai]

If you ask a Hindu what Hinduism is he or she will probably give you a blank stare. There is no consensus on what Hinduism is...the culture and religion itself is to rich to come to any conclusion. There are no rules to being a "good Hindu".

 

It is inevitable that cultures will adapt practices to their particular needs and culture of the time. This is impossible to avoid. Most westerners are not concerned with spiritual cultivation so they just take Yoga as something physical...i think this reflects the level of consciousness that most are at in western society.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

) ah the "old" response fabricated by indophobes in western academia...

I'm a hindu and i can tell you all about wht hinduism is....wanna learn?

[jijaji]

[RiverSnake]

Hmm....i am not knowledgeable enough to put forth a a worthy argument...i will side-step this one. I only know what my teachers have taught me.

Edited January 4, 2012 by OldGreen

[3bob]

Yes, there is inspired, insightful, revealed and often mind boggling complex doctrines, in forms of sectarian teachings along with great forms of yoga...!

 

But before going to far with all of that there is the joint foundation of:

 

The Yamas

"Since Yama comes from the root word ‘yam’ ‘to hold’ or ‘to rule’, yama yoga represents the behaviours that ‘control’ certain negative tendencies (the ‘animal/instinctive nature’) that occur in all human beings. These are the five ideals of:

 

•Ahimsa (non-violence)

•Satya (truth)

•Asteya (non-stealing, or non-cheating)

•Brahmacharya (continence, involving self-restraint and moderation in all you do)

•Aparigraha (non-coveting, including no envy, jealousy or unhealthy competitiveness)".

 

(and then also niyama)

 

Thus without the first and great law being perpetually followed namely "Ahimsa", (along with the other laws) the most promising want to be to siddha/yogi that may practice SOME FORM of yoga won't be safe from falling into the greatest hell.

Edited January 4, 2012 by 3bob

[guruyoga]

Sometimes it becomes useful to clarify what Yoga we are talking of?

 

Bhagavad Gita, one the three most important scriptures of Vedic philosophy (along with the Upanishads and the Brahmasutras) speaks of Karma, Bhakti and Jnana yogas chiefly, also touching upon Raja Yoga, which is comparable to Patanjali's Yoga Darshana.

 

But when we popularly refer to Yoga today, one mostly talks of a specific physical form involving postures (Asanas) and breath regulation (Pranayama). These are extracted components of Patanjali's eightfold system. The physical system was greatly innovated upon by Hatha Yogins like Matsyendranatha, Gorakshanatha etc., a systematization of which was attempted rather late in works like Goraksha Samhita, Gheranda Samhita, Shiva Samhita and the very recent Hathayoga Pradipika. Most of the stuff taught today in Yoga studios are bits and pieces from the Hathayoga Pradipika, which is a highly condensed manual of thousands of years of hatha yoga wisdom.

 

These were further simplified and made even more diluted (possibly with the noble intention of making it more accessible to the public) by late Krishnamacharya, or my own dear departed relative Sri Pattabhi Jois (who coined the term Vinnyasa). Even practicing these physical exercises in isolation from a bigger framework of Yoga or Samkhya or Patanjala Darshana (or the Tantric Natha darshana in the case of Hatha yoga) can grant health benefits - which is why they are popular today - but this was not really the end goal of these systems.

 

Namdrol once said: if you are practicing Dzogchen, you are already a Buddhist. Note he doesn't say the "realization" of dzogchen but the practice itself. Similarly, if you practice yoga, any of the classic asanas or pranayama or even Sufi/Buddhist versions of yoga, one can be called a Hindu in a similar spirit - for each of these practices symbolize something very specific within the theistic Hindu system.

 

Edit: As 3Bob rightly pointed out, the greatest loss today is the complete lack of emphasis on Yama and Niyama, without which its categorically stated that other blocks of the Ashtanga system fall flat. This emphasis on compassion, kindness and virtue - which is the foundation of the Yoga system, is completely neglected by today's pop yoga culture which neither understands the metaphysics behind the system nor advocates enlightened practice (like the lady MetalNun told us to stop thinking, abandon intellect and do some breathing or moving of limbs blindly).

 

My point is not to convert all Yoga enthusiasts into Hindus - Hinduism does not really care for converts as its a universal religion, but one should not blindly and mindlessly accept any nonsense dished out as Yoga today.

Edited January 4, 2012 by guruyoga

[dwai]

Sometimes it becomes useful to clarify what Yoga we are talking of?

 

Bhagavad Gita, one the three most important scriptures of Vedic philosophy (along with the Upanishads and the Brahmasutras) speaks of Karma, Bhakti and Jnana yogas chiefly, also touching upon Raja Yoga, which is comparable to Patanjali's Yoga Darshana.

 

But when we popularly refer to Yoga today, one mostly talks of a specific physical form involving postures (Asanas) and breath regulation (Pranayama). These are extracted components of Patanjali's eightfold system. The physical system was greatly innovated upon by Hatha Yogins like Matsyendranatha, Gorakshanatha etc., a systematization of which was attempted rather late in works like Goraksha Samhita, Gheranda Samhita, Shiva Samhita and the very recent Hathayoga Pradipika. Most of the stuff taught today in Yoga studios are bits and pieces from the Hathayoga Pradipika, which is a highly condensed manual of thousands of years of hatha yoga wisdom.

 

These were further simplified and made even more diluted (possibly with the noble intention of making it more accessible to the public) by late Krishnamacharya, or my own dear departed relative Sri Pattabhi Jois (who coined the term Vinnyasa). Even practicing these physical exercises in isolation from a bigger framework of Yoga or Samkhya or Patanjala Darshana (or the Tantric Natha darshana in the case of Hatha yoga) can grant health benefits - which is why they are popular today - but this was not really the end goal of these systems.

 

Namdrol once said: if you are practicing Dzogchen, you are already a Buddhist. Note he doesn't say the "realization" of dzogchen but the practice itself. Similarly, if you practice yoga, any of the classic asanas or pranayama or even Sufi/Buddhist versions of yoga, one can be called a Hindu in a similar spirit - for each of these practices symbolize something very specific within the theistic Hindu system.

 

Edit: As 3Bob rightly pointed out, the greatest loss today is the complete lack of emphasis on Yama and Niyama, without which its categorically stated that other blocks of the Ashtanga system fall flat. This emphasis on compassion, kindness and virtue - which is the foundation of the Yoga system, is completely neglected by today's pop yoga culture which neither understands the metaphysics behind the system nor advocates enlightened practice (like the lady MetalNun told us to stop thinking, abandon intellect and do some breathing or moving of limbs blindly).

 

My point is not to convert all Yoga enthusiasts into Hindus - Hinduism does not really care for converts as its a universal religion, but one should not blindly and mindlessly accept any nonsense dished out as Yoga today.

 

i could not have put this across any better....

 

I think i know who you are my friend....correct me if i am wrong.

 

Also great points by both jijaji and bob. Prasthana tryayi is the correct term to refer to the triumvirate of philosphies and guidelines based upon which pratitioners of the eternal way (dharma) build their ciivil and spiritual lives. These are the Vedas, the brahmasutras and the bhagavad gita.

[guruyoga]

i could not have put this across any better....

 

I think i know who you are my friend....correct me if i am wrong.

 

Never seen you say something wrong

[Aetherous]

But when we popularly refer to Yoga today, one mostly talks of a specific physical form involving postures (Asanas) and breath regulation (Pranayama). These are extracted components of Patanjali's eightfold system. The physical system was greatly innovated upon by Hatha Yogins like Matsyendranatha, Gorakshanatha etc., a systematization of which was attempted rather late in works like Goraksha Samhita, Gheranda Samhita, Shiva Samhita and the very recent Hathayoga Pradipika. Most of the stuff taught today in Yoga studios are bits and pieces from the Hathayoga Pradipika, which is a highly condensed manual of thousands of years of hatha yoga wisdom.

 

This leads me to believe that yoga asanas were more of an offshoot of Hinduism, rather than a real aspect of the religion/way of life itself.

 

Hatha yoga, itself...isn't that an offshoot of Hinduism? Not all Hindus practice hatha yoga, right?

 

As far as what's contained in Patanjali's sutras, there isn't much information on physical postures. Basically just sit comfortably...but maybe there are other translations which contain more information.

 

So trying to add Hinduism into a bikram yoga class (or whatever), for a Western fitness crowd, doesn't really make much sense.

 

The branch has fallen far from the tree, and has become its own phenomenon.

 

Forgive me guys, when I communicate in the Vedanta section, I feel pretty clueless compared to you all!

[dwai]

This leads me to believe that yoga asanas were more of an offshoot of Hinduism, rather than a real aspect of the religion/way of life itself.

 

Hatha yoga, itself...isn't that an offshoot of Hinduism? Not all Hindus practice hatha yoga, right?

 

As far as what's contained in Patanjali's sutras, there isn't much information on physical postures. Basically just sit comfortably...but maybe there are other translations which contain more information.

 

So trying to add Hinduism into a bikram yoga class (or whatever), for a Western fitness crowd, doesn't really make much sense.

 

The branch has fallen far from the tree, and has become its own phenomenon.

 

Forgive me guys, when I communicate in the Vedanta section, I feel pretty clueless compared to you all!

To quote my grand master waysun liao in this context...tai chi without proper orientation in Dao is "tai chi like tai chi" ( meaning not the real thing...therefore meaningless). Similarly yoga without the remaining 6 limbs of yoga is " yoga like yoga" a cheap imitation ( and irritation). The branch that falls off the tree either gets burnt as firewood or rots and disappears...

 

Sure people can develop tight butts and great bdies but thats the end of it, especially if the thirst for the unknown is not evoked...

 

[Jetsun]

My understanding is that much of the Hatha type Yoga we get in the West today originates from one teacher Sri Tirumalai Krishnamacharya who had a number of prominent students, one of which promoted the vigorous Ashtanga Yoga, B.K. Iyengar was another who promoted his form and another was his son who taught a more adaptable form of Viniyoga. It seems to me like the West have taken up the most aggressive vigorous forms like Ashtanga and Iyengar and forgotten the more soft and adaptive form of Viniyoga which was meant to be adapted to fit the individuality and particular situation of each practitioner, which is probably the form of Yoga we most need and I expect is the most beneficial.

[Aetherous]

Dwai,

 

Very nice.

 

Oh I totally agree. I don't even view the way most yoga classes go to be healthy. Super hot rooms, raising your blood pressure while doing challenging inversions, overstretching the spine. These types of things can actually damage the mind and body, more than heal! Some classes are more about disembodiment...people walk out dizzy and disoriented...abused.

 

But then again, some classes are quite healing.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Scotty

[Dainin]

Hi Jetsun,

 

Having taken classes in it for 12 years (until stopping a few years ago) I wouldn't call the Iyengar method aggressively vigorous. It emphasizes correct alignment to prevent injuries, and does modify the asanas to fit the capabilities of the students using props such as blocks, belts and bolsters. Also, there are different levels of classes, so more "advanced" asanas are not introduced until the student is ready for them. Unlike systems such as Bikram and Ashtanga, the Iyengar method does not use set sequences of postures in class, but rather bases the selection of postures based on the current state and needs of the students. The most vigorous part to me was that the asanas might be held for a longer period than in other methods. Hindu spirituality was not stressed other than chanting the Invocation to Patanjali and 3 Oms before class.

 

By the way, Krishnamacharya had some other students besides the ones you mentioned. Indra Devi was highly influential before the 1970s, and there are others such as A.G. Mohan and Srivatsa (I forget his first name) who are still around. What I find especially interesting about Krishnamacharya is that his students developed rather disparate systems, but many of them lived impressively long lives.

[guruyoga]

One would need to examine a few factors to see how Yoga got to where it is today. Till about early 1920, yoga was seldom focused on mere physical health, it was more of a spiritual system. Even Hatha yoga, the most physical form, was for spiritual purposes (ha-tha - refers to sun and moon channels). Also, most often Hatha Yoga was seriously undertaken more by renunciates, yogins, brahmacharis of the ten dashanami akharas, various subsects of nath lineages etc., rather than householders and general public. Patanjali simply states sthiram sukhamasanam without elaborating on hundreds of postures seen today.

 

In the 1920s, Maharaja of Mysore Krishnaraja Wodeyar, who frequented London, is reported to have been greatly impressed with the Gymkhanas there and the focus on physical fitness that was becoming more popular in the Western world. He was also very keen on promoting Yoga as a health science and popularizing it among general public. He was the one who funded and initiated various votaries of Yoga such as Krishna Rao, K V Iyer, Sundaram Iyer and Krishnamacharya to popularize yoga. The palace gazette even termed these as ‘experiments’ in yoga. This seems to be the beginning of the form of Yoga as we see it today. While some votaries innovated more, some like Krishnamacharya stayed close to their roots, but were still considered to be somewhat New Age in their time.

 

One should also note that under British rule, to promote Yoga as a secular form, it was projected as ‘Physical Education’ in schools of Mysore State and much was done to segregate it from religious life, of which it was considered an integral part so far. Though learned in traditional systems such as Vishishtadvaita (Krishnamacharya was associated with Parakala Mutt) and Samkhya, his benefactors included the Nizam of Hyderabad, a Muslim and a new emerging India influenced by the West and he undoubtedly tried his best to "secularize" yoga.

 

As for Krishnamacharya’s system, call it Ashtanga or Vinnyasa (as Pattabhi Jois later coined), he learned it from a Himalayan Guru Ram Mohan Brahmachari, based on an ancient text composed by the seer Vamana. This is highly debatable since there is no mention of this text by any other sources. Also, Krishnamacharya claimed of transmission of a text named Yoga Rahasya through visions. Moreover, Krishnamacharya traveled far and wide in his youth and spent a good amount of time in Kashi (Benaras), the center for Dashanami Akharas and also the home to Yogins and Nath tantrics - from who he most apparently received his education in Hatha Yoga. It is clear that Krishnamacharya experimented with the vast yogic discipline and arrived at his own system named Ashtanga, attributing it to visions and ancient texts most possibly to lend it greater authenticity. It is now well-known that Krishnamacharya was influenced by various gymkhanas in Mysore and actively worked on combining the western physical exercise system with the traditional yoga. Even today, more traditional teachers question his rejection of shatkarmas, emphasis on yama and niyama etc.

 

It is also documented in the Royal Gazette of Mysore palace that Krishnamacharya constantly innovated with Asanas. When some Asanas were difficult, he changed them, came up with easier variations and so on. Being vastly learned, he was probably capable of making such modifications, but the current emphasis of Yoga as more of a Physical Exercise clearly started with Krishnamacharya.

 

So, it would be technically incorrect to call versions promoted by Krishnamacharya and his numerous disciples - yoga or even Hatha Yoga as Patanjala Yoga or the Tantra inspired Hatha Yoga are complete schools/spiritual cultivation systems in themselves. This was also probably the reason the innovators called their schools Ashtanga Yoga, Ashtanga Vinnyasa etc. as these represent a set of physical postures derived from the classical systems. Undoubtedly, these are very beneficial for purposes of physical health and probably confer spiritual benefits to an extent too, but may not take one very far spiritually as Jetsun noted in another thread. The problem today is of innovation (or corruption) by every Tom, Dick and Harry - who have no idea of the bodily working of Pranas and Prakriti (which forms the basis of Yoga) - leading to injury and damage.

Edited January 6, 2012 by guruyoga

[dwai]

Dwai,

 

Very nice.

 

Oh I totally agree. I don't even view the way most yoga classes go to be healthy. Super hot rooms, raising your blood pressure while doing challenging inversions, overstretching the spine. These types of things can actually damage the mind and body, more than heal! Some classes are more about disembodiment...people walk out dizzy and disoriented...abused.

 

But then again, some classes are quite healing.

Ideally, hatha yoga should be a prescriptive practice...ie one goes to their doctor who would then recommend asanas and pranayamas based on what is needed to remedy ailments or balance doshas. That said there are some generic asanas and pranayams that can be practiced in general...

[jijaji]

dwai,

 

what would you say is the best generic pranayama that is ok for people in general to practice?

 

 

cheers

[dwai]

dwai,

 

what would you say is the best generic pranayama that is ok for people in general to practice?

 

 

cheers

 

anulom-vilom, relaxed kapaalbhati are two that come to mind. Mostly, imho, anything with kumbhak in it is not safe without proper guidance. Also, Cyclical breathing with breath ratio of 1:2 is also good and practitioner can elongate the duration gradually (as long as it is effortless)...

[jijaji]

I also wanted to ask what is your opinion of Kriya Pranayama (Spinal Pranayama) as seen in a few different groups?

 

jijaji

[guruyoga]

Someone more experienced with Taoist techniques like Scotty can chime in, but I would think deep/abdominal/lower dantien breathing with breath-awareness (One Breath as we call in Kunlun school) is much more advisable and safer and more wholesome than a lot of these Spinal/Kriya-like practices - for the beginner. Even in Lahiri Baba's school, Nabhi Kriya was considered pretty important before starting other practices - something that Yogananda seems to have done away with. Hamsa Kriya (or Ajapa Kriya, that SRF calls Hong Sau) establishes breath awareness and Nabhi Kriya establishes awareness on the lower dantien (and also ming men). The Daoist abdominal breathing achieves both. So, IMO, this is a lot safer than most Pranayama techniques - its natural and not forced. It can lead the current up the spine spontaneously and without force at the right time.

 

If one had to pick and choose a Pranayama technique, As Dwai said, Anuloma-Viloma is the way to go as it accomplishes the crucial part of nadi shuddhi. I am not sure working with Sushumna without some level of preliminary practice is very safe.

Edited January 6, 2012 by guruyoga