Global Revolution!

[Ambrose_Bierce]

Joeblast, from what I read on the forum you are a great practioner.

Some of the posts you write on here are great.

Now on here I see this political lower drab stuff here of a lower vibration.

It is pontificating feces dude. Politics isn't the answer.

 

Well peace guys... time for my 36 hour trip.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Ambrose_Bierce

[Taomeow]

Are you sure Lao Tzu said that? Hehehe.

 

Wen-tzu said that Lao-tzu said that. All I'm sure of is, that's the format of the book, every chapter starts with "Lao-tzu said." This is traditional, and not just Chinese, to present one's teacher's arguments verbatim instead of interpreting them. Plato followed this format when talking about what Socrates said too.

 

How sure anyone can be that anyone said anything is another matter. But I love Wen-tzu, and am really surprised it gets so little publicity at a taoist forum. Wen-tzu is to TTC what a mongraph is to a magazine article.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Let all economies collapse and then see the true values of gold versus corn.

[Marblehead]

Wen-tzu said that Lao-tzu said that. All I'm sure of is, that's the format of the book, every chapter starts with "Lao-tzu said." This is traditional, and not just Chinese, to present one's teacher's arguments verbatim instead of interpreting them. Plato followed this format when talking about what Socrates said too.

 

How sure anyone can be that anyone said anything is another matter. But I love Wen-tzu, and am really surprised it gets so little publicity at a taoist forum. Wen-tzu is to TTC what a mongraph is to a magazine article.

 

Nice response. I don't multitask. I am working with the TTC right now and then Chuang Tzu is what I will be working on next. Maybe if I live long enough we can get to Wen-tzu and the many other readings that members have shown an interest in.

 

My shot at Sun Tzu failed. Hehehe. Oh well.

[Marblehead]

Let all economies collapse and then see the true values of gold versus corn.

 

Ah!, but gold has always been valued by man. A person with gold can buy the corn that the corn grower produces. The cycle will just start all over again.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Ah!, but gold has always been valued by man. A person with gold can buy the corn that the corn grower produces. The cycle will just start all over again.

 

 

But what does the corn-grower want the gold for? What is the value of gold, if all it can be used for is conducting electricity or making trade for valuable items such as food and shelter?

 

It is a "necessary evil", a required medium for economic growth, but what is economic:

 

Self sufficency, or debt graves?

 

Gold can make great computers, but it makes terrible trade. Let's re-evaluate what is truly necessary and therefore valuable.

[Marblehead]

But what does the corn-grower want the gold for? What is the value of gold, if all it can be used for is conducting electricity or making trade for valuable items such as food and shelter?

 

It is a "necessary evil", a required medium for economic growth, but what is economic:

 

Self sufficency, or debt graves?

 

Gold can make great computers, but it makes terrible trade. Let's re-evaluate what is truly necessary and therefore valuable.

 

Hehehe. Good try but I don't buy it. A corn grower can use that gold he obtained by selling some of his corm to buy a pig and eat pig and corn.

 

It's too late to go back to the family-owned farm. Not enough land to support all the people. China and India are facing those problems right now. People are leaving the fields to find work in the cities. You don't get paid with corn when you are working in the city.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Marblehead

[Informer]

Hehehe. Good try but I don't buy it. A corn grower can use that gold he obtained by selling some of his corm to buy a pig and eat pig and corn.

 

It's too late to go back to the family-owned farm. Not enough land to support all the people. China and India are facing those problems right now. People are leaving the fields to find work in the cities. You don't get paid with corn when you are working in the city.

 

Not yet anyway. Imagine if those office buildings were filled with year-round gardens, powered with clean energy.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Debt graves it is.

 

 

There is such a thing as too many people wherein the most sympathetic action is to thin the herd.

 

 

Tribal people would not dominate a herd or domesticate their meat, but rather accent the herd, keep it strong by preying on the weak.

 

 

Humans lack a higher power to keep them in check, to 'thin the herd' as it were. but we cant allow ourselves to grow so fat and sickly either. What do we do?

 

 

There's the need to eat, but you cant gaurentee that a few farms can accomidate a large population. What do we do?

 

What happens when there's plenty of gold, and no food?

[Informer]

http://news.discovery.com/videos/earth-urban-farms-grow-up.html Edited September 21, 2011 by Informer

[Aaron]

"Lao-tzu said:

 

When people govern by inaction, this is contrived, and so it is harmful. Those who govern by inaction are deliberately being inactive, and those who act in a deliberately contrived manner cannot be uncontrived. Those who cannot be uncontrived cannot be creative.

 

If people say nothing but their spirits are talking, this is harmful. If they say nothing but their spirits are putting on the act of saying nothing, this is harmful to the spirit that is spiritual." -- Wen-tzu, Ch. 30

 

Hi Taomeow,

 

In my opinion this is BS... someone had an agenda and put Lao Tzu's name on it. Nothing from the Tao Teh Ching even remotely hints at this.

 

Anyways, I wasn't quoting Lao Tzu, I was really just stating my own opinion.

 

The only real way to win a battle is never to have the battle in the first place. If one does what is right, worries about his own actions, does not enforce his actions on others, then he is living in harmony with the world around him.

 

Cease to value gold and gems (and computers) and people will cease to want them. Simple as that, and that is Lao Tzu by the way.

 

Do what YOU know is right and don't worry about anything else.

 

Aaron

Edited September 21, 2011 by Twinner

[Informer]

We have to stand-up for mother earth, it is our responsibility, I don't care who's said what or when they said it. It is common sense and the responsibility of every human being who lives here. This is why we have the right to assemble, to voice our concern.

Edited September 21, 2011 by Informer

[Informer]

You really think Lao Tzu, or Buddha, or Jesus would stand idly by and watch the world deteriorate around them? No they would not and did not. They spoke up for what they believed regardless of who's toes they were stepping on.

[Taomeow]

Hi Taomeow,

 

In my opinion this is BS... someone had an agenda and put Lao Tzu's name on it. Nothing from the Tao Teh Ching even remotely hints at this.

 

Um... your opinion vs. the volume in my hands... tough call.

 

This is Wen-tzu (cited from "The Taoist Classics," the collected translations of Thomas Cleary, Volume 1). Wen-tzu is believed by most taoist scholars and perhaps all practicing/initiated taoists to be the oral teachings of Lao-tzu recorded by his student, a source at least as realiable as TTC (which some scholars have questioned in its attribution to Lao-tzu as well).

 

Anyways, I wasn't quoting Lao Tzu, I was really just stating my own opinion.

 

I didn't say you were. I was.

 

The reason I responded to your opinion with this quote is that I disagree with it (the opinion, not the quote), and disagree with it not whimsically and thoughtlessly but after giving the concept you presented some serious consideration and consulting taoist sources of my humble preference. (Which are numerous and not limited to TTC by any stretch of imagination.)

 

Cease to value gold and gems (and computers) and people will cease to want them. Simple as that, and that is Lao Tzu by the way.

 

Do what YOU know is right and don't worry about anything else.

 

Aaron

 

Yeah, in the Soviet Union, we were told exactly this. Weren't supposed to value gold and gems and computers. Were supposed to embrace simplicity. Lao-tzu would be proud if it ever worked. The way it really worked... well, let's say you should have been there to appreciate the joke.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

We have to stand-up for mother earth, it is our responsibility, I don't care who's said what or when they said it. It is common sense and the responsibility of every human being who lives here. This is why we have the right to assemble, to voice our concern.

 

 

The problem we face here is sensationalization.

 

People are always looking for the next big sensation, the next newest thing.

 

 

Responsibly giving your life to the world it came from is too old to be sensational enough to form a crowd of listeners. all we can do is silently live by the right example, and die in peace, hoping people see the correctness of our ways.

[Aaron]

Um... your opinion vs. the volume in my hands... tough call.

 

This is Wen-tzu (cited from "The Taoist Classics," the collected translations of Thomas Cleary, Volume 1). Wen-tzu is believed by most taoist scholars and perhaps all practicing/initiated taoists to be the oral teachings of Lao-tzu recorded by his student, a source at least as realiable as TTC (which some scholars have questioned in its attribution to Lao-tzu as well).

 

 

 

I didn't say you were. I was.

 

The reason I responded to your opinion with this quote is that I disagree with it (the opinion, not the quote), and disagree with it not whimsically and thoughtlessly but after giving the concept you presented some serious consideration and consulting taoist sources of my humble preference. (Which are numerous and not limited to TTC by any stretch of imagination.)

 

 

 

Yeah, in the Soviet Union, we were told exactly this. Weren't supposed to value gold and gems and computers. Were supposed to embrace simplicity. Lao-tzu would be proud if it ever worked. The way it really worked... well, let's say you should have been there to appreciate the joke.

 

 

Hello Taomeow,

 

You can believe whatever you want to, but that doesn't mean what you believe is right. I recommended that Meow listen to three songs, because they held a message within them, I wont repost the songs here, but I will tell you the message that they conveyed.

 

We will all become disillusioned at one time or another, because the world is not the way that we choose it to be. That doesn't mean that the answer is revolution or communism, or any other ism, sometimes the answer is simply enjoying life as it is.

 

When we can give up our beliefs, devotions, faith, and virtue, and simply become human, a being in motion purely for the sake of moving, then we can begin to see the world as it is, rather than how we've been taught to believe it is.

 

As for the final message, well that is simply that we can devote ourselves to something completely, but that will not give us meaning, nor will it make us faithful and virtuous, it merely makes us an ism, true virtue comes from living life as one should, not by law or morality, but by the nature that is within us. When we can do that, then we will understand why it is better to laugh with the sinner, than to die with the saint.

 

In that light, the quote from Wen Tzu is meaningless. You may find meaning in it, but there is nothing within this world that harms the spirit, neither repression of thought, nor inaction, in fact in many cases it is inaction that will further our understanding of the spirit. It is the ability to understand when we need to act and when we need to be still that is important for us to gain further insight into the nature of it all.

 

If you think communism was anything close to what I talked about, then you're far off the mark. We do not need to share everything equally, we need to stop valuing material goods completely. When we can be happy with food, clothes, and warm place to sleep, and stop worrying about all the other crap, then we are halfway to where we ought to be. Give up the land, the wealth, and the status, allow yourself to be able to live happily with what you need and not what you want, and no power on earth can hold sway over you. It really is as simple as that.

 

Aaron

Edited September 22, 2011 by Twinner

[Informer]

That sounds greedy and selfish to me. If you are comfortable than fuck everyone else right? Fuck those guys in Africa who can't eat, or the guys being killed by their governments, or the endless wars the US wages for profit. Fuck the Rainforest being polluted by oil for profit. Fuck the Ocean and it's sea life. Fuck everyone elses well being but your own. Make a little happy circle and pretend all is right.

 

You are condoning all of this through inaction. We, the American People, are ultimately responsible for our government and it's actions. It is time to say enough is enough.

Edited September 22, 2011 by Informer

[Marblehead]

Not yet anyway. Imagine if those office buildings were filled with year-round gardens, powered with clean energy.

 

Hehehe. I gotta' give you credit for trying.

 

Where are you gonna' find clean energy as long as dirty oil is available? You know the oil companies and our governments will not allow that.

[Marblehead]

What happens when there's plenty of gold, and no food?

 

People will start eating each other - parents will eat their children. It has happened before.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, in the Soviet Union, we were told exactly this. Weren't supposed to value gold and gems and computers. Were supposed to embrace simplicity. Lao-tzu would be proud if it ever worked. The way it really worked... well, let's say you should have been there to appreciate the joke.

 

Hehehe. But the wealthy and powered kept all the gold and gems, didn't they?

 

They wanted the people to live simply so that they could live extravagantly.

 

That was the difference between communism and "true" socialism.

[joeblast]

and people say I spout some weird stuff

 

yeah, people hate politics...but when you have to put up with morons that say things like "if it takes lawsuits to get work opportunities, so be it" then constituents clearly have a problem with their leadership. especially when they bury such things deep into legislation and say things like "it must become law before you can see the actual verbiage of what you will be subjected to."

 

promising some artificially generated "equality" through force of government is decidedly unfair. you cant simply punish those who have and call it good!

 

I must be entirely discompassionate for advocating a system that allows someone to fail

 

how's not letting businesses and financial institutions fail working out?

 

terribly - so what's the solution, listen to that whacko Soros? "Sorry, you cant be trusted with your own governments anymore, you need to cede any meaningful authority to the central power that I've been working to set up my entire life, otherwise there will be terrible collapse." got some news for ya georgey, there's going to be a re-correction regardless!

 

and here I thought the world was relatively done with centralized totalitarian control! except of course where the world turns a blind eye, as was done with Iran in 2009.

 

 

corporations have a vanishingly small amount of power as compared to the government that decides the rules by which the games are played.

[Marblehead]

 

corporations have a vanishingly small amount of power as compared to the government that decides the rules by which the games are played.

 

But I suggest that governments are making decisions based on how much money (in various forms) is being put into the pockets of the politicians.

 

There is no such thing as a free market in the US anymore. The laws are created to benefit the wealthy because it is the wealthy who are making the laws.

[joeblast]

that's a lot of what needs to stop. that's why we need regulatory reform, tort reform, tax reform...

[witch]

Um... your opinion vs. the volume in my hands... tough call.

 

This is Wen-tzu (cited from "The Taoist Classics," the collected translations of Thomas Cleary, Volume 1). Wen-tzu is believed by most taoist scholars and perhaps all practicing/initiated taoists to be the oral teachings of Lao-tzu recorded by his student, a source at least as realiable as TTC (which some scholars have questioned in its attribution to Lao-tzu as well).

 

 

 

I didn't say you were. I was.

 

The reason I responded to your opinion with this quote is that I disagree with it (the opinion, not the quote), and disagree with it not whimsically and thoughtlessly but after giving the concept you presented some serious consideration and consulting taoist sources of my humble preference. (Which are numerous and not limited to TTC by any stretch of imagination.)

 

 

 

Yeah, in the Soviet Union, we were told exactly this. Weren't supposed to value gold and gems and computers. Were supposed to embrace simplicity. Lao-tzu would be proud if it ever worked. The way it really worked... well, let's say you should have been there to appreciate the joke.

 

As always, Taomeow is correct in all things.

 

joeblast, I disagree with Mitt Romney in saying that corporations are people. I think that corporations are spirits, and very powerful corporations are very powerful spirits. The evil ones shun sunlight and love spreading lies. They prey on gullible people, particularly fundamentalists of all stripes. I'm a little disturbed to find that there are gullible taoists who have swallowed unquestioned nonsensical corporatist propaganda, but I suppose that is my own prejudice.

[Informer]

The Greeks are at it . .

 

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