Consensus on the details of zhan zhuang posture

[Spirit of the Tiger]

I am having trouble with practicing zhang zhuang consistently since I read and learn of conflicting ways of holding the standing posture. So usually I will just say to myself that I'll just do whatever way feels right and hopefully the qi will align me into the proper way eventually...

 

For example in "hugging the tree" posture... or any other posture. My taiji teacher tells me to be more on the heels of the foot so as to keep from exerting pressure on the kidney 1 point yongquan. I have seen elsewhere that some recommend that you do the exact opposite and do put weight on the yongquan point. In the book Wujushi Breathing Practice it says to make a straight line going from yongquan to yongquan and the lower dan tien must me above the midpoint of that line and the upper dan-tien must also be aligned. "3 points on the same line"

 

So yes... it's things like these.

 

Some will say to slightly contract the lower abdomen or slightly tuck it in. Others say to keep it relaxed and to hold the concentration there around the navel. Others say pay no particular attention anywhere and just do it "zen" style like emptiness meditation type.

Edited January 4, 2012 by Spirit of the Tiger

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

I am having trouble with practicing zhang zhuang consistently since I read and learn of conflicting ways of holding the standing posture. So usually I will just say to myself that I'll just do whatever way feels right and hopefully the qi will align me into the proper way eventually...

 

For example in "hugging the tree" posture... or any other posture. My taiji teacher tells me to be more on the heels of the foot so as to keep from exerting pressure on the kidney 1 point yongquan. I have seen elsewhere that some recommend that you do the exact opposite and do put weight on the yongquan point. In the book Wujushi Breathing Practice it says to make a straight line going from yongquan to yongquan and the lower dan tien must me above the midpoint of that line and the upper dan-tien must also be aligned. "3 points on the same line"

 

So yes... it's things like these.

 

Some will say to slightly contract the lower abdomen or slightly tuck it in. Others say to keep it relaxed and to hold the concentration there around the navel. Others say pay no particular attention anywhere and just do it "zen" style like emptiness meditation type.

 

 

I've been practicing Zhan Zhuang for a number of years, 16 maybe, and have learnt from a few good masters, so my observations would be, and they are only observations, not dogma.....

 

Its too easy to immerse ourselves in information. I've got pretty much every book on Zhan Zhuang and Chi Gong in the english language. And I've studied them all. And if I took it al on board, I'd be pretty confused. Paralysis by analysis, and all that !

 

An hour of good practice is worth all of that written information, and more, in a general sense, unless you are experienced enough to learn how to apply it.

 

If you have a Taiji teacher, and he or she is instructing you on your Zhan Zhuang practice, why are you doubting them ? Don't you trust them ? And if you don't, why are you still at the class ? Maybe you should give their method a good try, say a year, and then assess the results ?

 

The best books, in my opinion, for reliable information for the beginner, are those by Master Lam. They aren't perfect, in that they leave out some of the more technical details and some of the more powerful aspects, but the information given is first rate, and you certainly won't go wrong. I think he chose to leave out those aspects because he knew they weren't really that useful for the beginner. Get the basics right first etc

 

The books by Jan Diepersloot are very good too. More information on alignments, centre lines etc. And interestingly, each time I read Warriors of Stillness, I get more, or less from it, depending on where my practice has taken me.

 

I think its too easy to over analyse and intellectualise our practices, in this age where information is so easily available. I think daily practice of Zhan Zhuang is one of the most powerful practices available, but it takes a good few years before we get to the stage of being able to apply everything we know to it. It takes years to really settle into the alignments and feel the energy clearly, with a still mind.

 

I'd say to read the books by Master Lam and follow his advice for a couple of years. Don't be in a rush. Then assess where you have got to, and look at the deeper levels of the practice. But it'll be at least two years of daily practice, minimum, before you are ready to go deeper.

 

Only my opinions of course.......

[joeblast]

I am having trouble with practicing zhang zhuang consistently since I read and learn of conflicting ways of holding the standing posture. So usually I will just say to myself that I'll just do whatever way feels right and hopefully the qi will align me into the proper way eventually...

 

For example in "hugging the tree" posture... or any other posture. My taiji teacher tells me to be more on the heels of the foot so as to keep from exerting pressure on the kidney 1 point yongquan. I have seen elsewhere that some recommend that you do the exact opposite and do put weight on the yongquan point. In the book Wujushi Breathing Practice it says to make a straight line going from yongquan to yongquan and the lower dan tien must me above the midpoint of that line and the upper dan-tien must also be aligned. "3 points on the same line"

 

So yes... it's things like these.

 

Some will say to slightly contract the lower abdomen or slightly tuck it in. Others say to keep it relaxed and to hold the concentration there around the navel. Others say pay no particular attention anywhere and just do it "zen" style like emptiness meditation type.

Would it be overstepping to ask him to clarify the yongquan thing? AFAIR all of the material and teaching I've had emphasizes the yongquan-ground connection. Would there be a certain reason, a certain other focus why? Be logical, scientific - have you tried both focuses and noticed any difference? I notice a difference, but I cant honestly explain at first glance.

 

The things being in line doesnt really add up for me, unless you consider lower dantien to be qihai. If I go to put the true location above my yongquan, my knees wind up way past my toes.

[Bubbles]

Apart from the very good points given by Jeramiah Zeitigeist, I would say that Zhan Zhuang is more a generic term for different realities. As I see it there is no orthodox way of practicing zhan zhuang because the different arts in which you will find this practice may have developped different techniques for different purposes and emphasis.

Lam Kam Chuen book's present a generic and consensual way of practicing, very good for the beginner in search for a feeling of zhan zhuang.

If you have entered into this practice through Taijiquan, intructions might be different but nonetheless very valuable. Stick with it anyway.

Edited January 4, 2012 by bubbles

[Ish]

Regarding the foot weighting, i've found the natural for me is to have balance over the whole foot.

IMO just learn a method from a master you trust, and continue in that way. Don't mix and match aspects from different lineages.

If you practice in one way for a while and find you are making good progress, then continue, if not, see what might be going wrong.

[joeblast]

Regarding the foot weighting, i've found the natural for me is to have balance over the whole foot.

that is generally the case, because in focusing too much on one aspect one tends to neglect others - the yongquan connection is more energetic than physical. I find it helps to relax the ankles as completely as possible.

[Aetherous]

Spirit of the Tiger,

 

My taiji teacher tells me to be more on the heels of the foot so as to keep from exerting pressure on the kidney 1 point yongquan. I have seen elsewhere that some recommend that you do the exact opposite and do put weight on the yongquan point.

 

This is the first time I've heard of someone recommending to be more on the heels.

 

Something to be aware of is that it may cause long term problems, where you develop heel pain. There is a bursa right under the heel that can be inflamed, and it may develop subtle muscular abnormalities that cause your posture to favor excess heel pressure...which if you develop heel pain isn't good at all. If the posture is changed, you might get excessive heel striking during activity and may bruise the calcaneus which will be even more painful.

 

Here is an excerpt from a book I just picked up which makes sense:

 

The foot as a tripod

 

An object that rests on three support points is always stable so long as its center of gravity falls within the triangle made by the points. Resting on two points, on the other hand, is like balancing on a knife-edge, whereas resting on four or more points can be "rickety," like a table on an uneven floor that will rock unless you fold up some paper under one of the legs. Consciously create a stable base for your support foot as follows:

 

Feel your body resting on a tripod of which the support points are the center of the heel, the ball of the big toe, and the ball of the little toe. Feel the weight of the foot going down through the center point of the tripod.

 

Martin Mellish. A Tai Chi Imagery Workbook: Spirit, Intent, and Motion (p. 28). Kindle Edition.

 

bubbles,

 

Lam Kam Chuen book's present a generic and consensual way of practicing, very good for the beginner in search for a feeling of zhan zhuang.

 

I also like his book.

 

My feeling is that the more centered, relaxed and effortless your zhan zhuang is, the better the qi will circulate.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Scotty

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

BK Frantzis, love him or hate him, says the heel needs to be opened up, to allow blood and chi to flow. So you stand with weight over the whole foot, then move the weight slightly forward, so you feel the heel and achilies area open up. The weight is still over the whole foot, but slightly more over the Bubbling Springs area, and slightly less on the heel. I think this is useful advice !

 

The knees, obviously, must never pass forward of the toes.

[mYTHmAKER]

"My taiji teacher tells me to be more on the heels of the foot so as to keep from exerting pressure on the kidney 1 point yongquan. I have seen elsewhere that some recommend that you do the exact opposite and do put weight on the yongquan point."

 

One possibility is that you are standing too far forward on your feet and he wants you

to move your weight back more to the heels so your weight is distributed properly

over your whole foot. i.e put more weight on your heels.

[Bubbles]

 

My feeling is that the more centered, relaxed and effortless your zhan zhuang is, the better the qi will circulate.

 

This is also my experience.

[Encephalon]

I went in last month for a nei kung/zhan zhuang check up, my ego half-expecting that my instructor would deliver some modest praise for my progress over these three short years. NOT!!

 

It was a humbling experience. I now see as clearly as ever how the importance of precise alignment can make the difference between authentic zhan zhuang and simple isometrics. I've definitely benefited from my 3-yr practice - even a broken clock is right twice a day! - but it's clear that 5 minutes of precise alignment, where the entire body feels like the bubbling brook, is superior to 30 minutes of incorrect posture.

 

I think Jeramiah is right, and I think that regular postural corrections is necessary. My teacher digitally recorded my session and then emailed it to me for Ipod download. Maybe your instructors would be hip to that as well.

[Aetherous]

My teacher digitally recorded my session and then emailed it to me for Ipod download. Maybe your instructors would be hip to that as well.

 

Now that's a good teacher!

[Spirit of the Tiger]

I think it might have been a misinterpretation to "stand on the heels". I think he meant more to stand so that there isn't too much weight over Yong Quan.

[doc benway]

I recommend to allow the entire foot to feel it's contact with the ground evenly distributed from heel to toes.

Over time the energetic structure becomes more familiar and you may come to feel that "weight" is relatively meaningless with respect to energetic points.

Just my $.02

[Encephalon]

Just to add another wrinkle in the equation...

the 8 principles of zhan zhuang (Embracing Horse) as taught by my Nei kung instructor, and his instructor, Master Chu (www.chutaichi.com) are

1.head suspended

2.pelvis tucked in, toe in and knees out

3. chest concave

4. Body rounded

5. Shoulders and elbows lowered.

6. Waist loose

7. "Qua" loose

8. Deep breathing (diaphragmatic)

 

" 'Toe in and knee out' means slightly pushing the knees outward and pulling the toes inward in such a manner as to create a tension in the tendons and the legs thus focusing most of the body weight on the heels and outer edges of the feet. The insides edges of the feet can be raised off the ground, if necessary, depending on the structure of the individual's foot. This aspect of alignment enhances the stability of the lower body." From "The Book of Nei Kung"

 

I would add that the goal is to create a sense of roundedness in the legs as if you were holding a beachball with your knees. Standing on the edge of the feet stretches and recruits the iliotibial band. There is evidence that tendon and cartilege facilitate the movement of chi due to there piezoelectric quality.

 

Tai Po

Edited January 6, 2012 by Encephalon

[Spirit of the Tiger]

Yea I'm unsure about CK Chu since he says to make the body round.. ie the back is rounded and not straight. You're bending forward at the hip and with a hump back...

[humbleone]

 

I'll just do whatever way feels right and hopefully the qi will align me into the proper way eventually...

 

good thread.

I have heard this comment before, I believe Gerard mentioned it also in his thread, that 'qi will correct the posture'. i found it a rather curious comment, what is the basis for this?

 

One thing I have a hard time with, is tounge tip touching the roof of the mouth. interesting to note that master ck chu doesn't say anything about it in his eight steps.

[doc benway]

Yea I'm unsure about CK Chu since he says to make the body round.. ie the back is rounded and not straight. You're bending forward at the hip and with a hump back...

Don't be too distracted by instructions and don't be too quick to judge or dismiss them.

Just stand.

In your standing, see if you can feel a roundness to the back without any physical movement.

See if you can feel a hollowness to the chest without moving.

Feel the suspension of the bai hui and an openness (I like that word better than looseness) in the kua, etc...

 

In the beginning, we often exaggerate postures by trying to force our physical body to fit an image we have.

If we do this then the instructions can cause incorrect posture.

Instead, allow the instructions to guide you in subtle ways, from the inside out, from the energetic body moving outward to eventually being expressed in very subtle physical adjustments.

This takes a long time - weeks, months, years.

It requires a great deal of sensitivity and awareness.

Until you feel the energetic body and come to trust in it, you will feel uncertain.

Let that uncertainty foster a spirit of investigation and exploration - internally.

This only comes with patience and diligence.

The inner landscape is subtle and extensive.

It won't happen quickly, no matter how good your instruction.

Good luck!

[Jeramiah Zeitigeist]

Don't be too distracted by instructions and don't be too quick to judge or dismiss them.

Just stand.

In your standing, see if you can feel a roundness to the back without any physical movement.

See if you can feel a hollowness to the chest without moving.

Feel the suspension of the bai hui and an openness (I like that word better than looseness) in the kua, etc...

 

In the beginning, we often exaggerate postures by trying to force our physical body to fit an image we have.

If we do this then the instructions can cause incorrect posture.

Instead, allow the instructions to guide you in subtle ways, from the inside out, from the energetic body moving outward to eventually being expressed in very subtle physical adjustments.

This takes a long time - weeks, months, years.

It requires a great deal of sensitivity and awareness.

Until you feel the energetic body and come to trust in it, you will feel uncertain.

Let that uncertainty foster a spirit of investigation and exploration - internally.

This only comes with patience and diligence.

The inner landscape is subtle and extensive.

It won't happen quickly, no matter how good your instruction.

Good luck!

 

 

Good advice !

 

Just stand. This process can take years. Its slow and subtle.

 

My standing practice has changed endlessly from the first year. So many subtle changes over the weeks, months and years.

 

Thats why I think Master Lam's book is so good. It teaches good, basic alignments. He doesn't presume to teach all the deeper. more powerful stuff, as its pointless until the subtle alignments have been created by long, steady practice.

 

After six months of daily ZZ practice, there is no way your alignments will all be correct. Just be patient.

[Sahaj Nath]

Yea I'm unsure about CK Chu since he says to make the body round.. ie the back is rounded and not straight. You're bending forward at the hip and with a hump back...

 

 

there's some REALLY GOOD advice in this thread! and steve's response to you is really good as well. i'm just writing to offer a little bit of clarity on the point.

 

when the qua is in the proper position, it actually UNCURVES the lower back, but it can feel a little like bowing out in the beginning. not in any extreme way, though. i usually tell students something like "open up the qua & shift the pelvis so there's no duck butt." just to keep it light.

 

the upper portion of your back is rounded when your shoulders are relaxed and you allow the chest to sink in a bit so that the scapulas can separate. again, nothing extreme. but the image in your mind didn't seem to account for this type of rounding. so i thought this might help you to imagine more possibility.

Edited January 7, 2012 by Hundun

[Sahaj Nath]

 

One thing I have a hard time with, is tounge tip touching the roof of the mouth. interesting to note that master ck chu doesn't say anything about it in his eight steps.

 

hmm...

 

"tongue tip touching the roof of the mouth" sounds really uncomfortable to me almost like you could be at risk of swallowing your tongue.

 

it should be a natural placing of the tongue on the upper palate behind the teeth. it should feel natural, not forced.

 

 

once energy is really flowing in your body, you'll understand and appreciate the importance of tongue placement. most people who practice without a skilled teacher aren't moving enough energy in the beginning to notice a difference. but once you've got some real flow generated in the body, you'll find yourself prone to headaches and head congestion as a result of practice. the tongue will allow all of that stuck energy in the head to flow down the front channel (Ren Mai).

[humbleone]

 

once energy is really flowing in your body, you'll understand and appreciate the importance of tongue placement. most people who practice without a skilled teacher aren't moving enough energy in the beginning to notice a difference. but once you've got some real flow generated in the body, you'll find yourself prone to headaches and head congestion as a result of practice. the tongue will allow all of that stuck energy in the head to flow down the front channel (Ren Mai).

 

good post hundun. Thank you again for your good sound advice earlier this week.

 

I am starting to realize I can only get so far reading from books and watching youtube! time to work with a teacher in person. encephalon clued me in to master ck chu. so planning on taking his Nei Kung Workshop later this week. I like the fact that he also offers posture correction for people like me who mostly practice at home...

 

http://www.chutaichi.com/

[joeblast]

you'd be surprised at how much a little shakin' & bouncin' (and then re-settling back into the posture) will help

 

if you have a decently sized mirror, check your posture in it every so often too - that's almost necessary for things like if one of your shoulders winds up lower than the other - sometimes it "feels natural" and pretty much even for someone, yet another set of eyes begs to differ!

[WHITEROOMENERGYMINE1]

Just to add another wrinkle in the equation...

the 8 principles of zhan zhuang (Embracing Horse) as taught by my Nei kung instructor, and his instructor, Master Chu (www.chutaichi.com) are

1.head suspended

2.pelvis tucked in, toe in and knees out

3. chest concave

4. Body rounded

5. Shoulders and elbows lowered.

6. Waist loose

7. "Qua" loose

8. Deep breathing (diaphragmatic)

 

" 'Toe in and knee out' means slightly pushing the knees outward and pulling the toes inward in such a manner as to create a tension in the tendons and the legs thus focusing most of the body weight on the heels and outer edges of the feet. The insides edges of the feet can be raised off the ground, if necessary, depending on the structure of the individual's foot. This aspect of alignment enhances the stability of the lower body." From "The Book of Nei Kung"

 

I would add that the goal is to create a sense of roundedness in the legs as if you were holding a beachball with your knees. Standing on the edge of the feet stretches and recruits the iliotibial band. There is evidence that tendon and cartilege facilitate the movement of chi due to there piezoelectric quality.

 

Tai Po

 

Encephalon this is some of the best advice I have found on ZZ posture yet. My knees have definitely had too much weight rested on them and your toes in knees out comment is GOLD! Couldn't be more grateful for this

 

thank you! thank you! thank you!

 

theNERD

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard