Zany Heron Posted January 4, 2012 Hello! I always wonder how many definitions of "shen" there are. Some says it's soul. Others say it's "non-thinking" or a state of "without mind". The most confusing is that there is also a theory that it is thinking and a state of wiseness! So wich one is correct? I know that Tao is a path full of paradoxones, but maybe you can help me to figure out what is "shen". 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lao Tzu Posted January 4, 2012 Hello! I always wonder how many definitions of "shen" there are. Some says it's soul. Others say it's "non-thinking" or a state of "without mind". The most confusing is that there is also a theory that it is thinking and a state of wiseness! So wich one is correct? I know that Tao is a path full of paradoxones, but maybe you can help me to figure out what is "shen". it's soul. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted January 4, 2012 You two, come here http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/21248-spirit-what-is-it/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 4, 2012 Hello! I always wonder how many definitions of "shen" there are. Some says it's soul. Others say it's "non-thinking" or a state of "without mind". The most confusing is that there is also a theory that it is thinking and a state of wiseness! So wich one is correct? I know that Tao is a path full of paradoxones, but maybe you can help me to figure out what is "shen". "Shen" depends on its application and who was using the term to express in a particular field. By the expression was used, you can almost read the mind of the individual and know where one was coming from. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 4, 2012 (edited) it's soul. Yes, it is a soul; the inner spirit of a body which governs all the mental and mechanical initial activities of a person. It is one of the basic ingredients in the Taoist cultivation. Shen is the mind of a body. The significance of the mind is to manipulate the mechanical movements of the body. The Taoists cultivate the mind to hence the basic features of a body to stay in balance as a self defense against any unexpected adversity. Edited January 4, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted January 5, 2012 Yes, it is a soul; the inner spirit of a body which governs all the mental and mechanical initial activities of a person. Soul or Spirit? Are you a dichotomist or a trichotomist? Sounds the former. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted January 5, 2012 i've always seen soul translated as different from spirit spirit being shen. i think soul is po. or hun po. or there are multiple kinds of souls and chinese is confusing. i forget. but i'm not a chinese speaker, just an ignorant american. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted January 5, 2012 I'm pretty sure there are 2 different characters for Shen, one being more like soul or spirits, the other being more like "that girls got spirit!", not getting into preceding adjectives, like yin shen. But, yes, do a search on TTB topics about Shen and Spirit, there have been some extensive ones. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted January 5, 2012 I don't know but I like to read this website: The term "shen," frequently translated today as "spirit," encompasses some of the most complex concepts of traditional Chinese medicine. In the Neijing, shen is mentioned about 240 times. Traditionally, the term refers to the mechanism of change, the mystery of sudden and profound transformation, and the expression in a person's face, particularly the eyes. When applied to the human body, the term describes a major part of what would be called physical vitality, mental activity, and spirit. Three main functions are attributed to shen: 1.mental activity (consciousness) as a manifestation of the central, albeit hidden, movement of shen. The ancient character shows a close affinity to the Big Dipper, which the Chinese viewed as the center of the universe. Shen, therefore, appears to be at the heart of all mental and physical activities, just as the Dipper appears to be the central pivot of the stars. As the Neijing puts it: "The heart is the emperor of the five zang and the six fu networks...; if the heart flares, then all of them will get out of line." The heart, via the flame of shen that it harbors within, is therefore like a lantern in charge of illuminating the outside world; it is seen as the source of thought processes. Any thought or idea, the will to carry it out, mental focus, planning, and intelligence can thus be considered to be manifestations of shen; 2.the seven emotional reactions (joy, anger, sadness, grief, fright, apprehension, worry) and their involuntary expressions (facial expressions, body movements, gestures, sighing, moaning, giggling, sobbing) are manifestations of shen; and 3.the controlling and regulating effect of the heart over mental and physical properties that are classified as the five modes of operation (wushen): hun, po, yi, zhi, and shen (this latter being the same term). Each of the modes is attributed to one of the five organ networks: hun refers to the self-awareness and self-control mechanism; associated with the liver; po refers to the body's basic reactive instincts associated; with the lung; yi refers to the ability of thinking and remembering; associated with the spleen; zhi refers to the function of memory; associated with the kidney; shen refers to the function of processing all incoming sensory and intuitive information and supervising the body/mind reaction to it; associated with the heart. When trying to comprehend the central aspects of Chinese medicine, it is extremely important to understand the dominant effect of the "immaterial shen" over the physical structure of the body. "If shen is strong," one of the Neijing's classic definitions reads, "the body will be strong; if we lose shen, the body will perish." Just like the Dipper in the sky appears to regulate the movement of sun (yang) and moon (yin), shen commands the basic movement of bodily yin (blood) and yang (qi). It can be said that shen operates beyond the realm of physical form; it always relies, however, on the continuous supply of the more dense and less refined qi and jing which constitute the material foundation of the body. The inter-relationship is as follows: the workings of shen rely on both pre- and postnatal jing-qi, while the movement and transformation of physical jing and qi, in turn, are controlled by shen. Blood is a type of "jing"-the latter being a term that always refers to sticky refined body substances which comprise the fundamental yin essence of the body (bone marrow, sperm, vaginal fluids, blood, saliva, etc.). Blood is regarded as a particularly important element of the material basis for shen activity. Further, the blood vessels are an important extension of the heart. In Neijing terms: "The heart network includes the blood vessels, and the blood vessels house shen." Extensive blood loss has a devastating affect: the afflicted person will be without shen-unconscious. taken from http://www.itmonline.org/5organs/heart.htm Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 5, 2012 (edited) Like I had said before. One can make a list of definitions for Shen. When one talks about it, one must stay within a category to be in consistent with the thoughts. Lao Tzu said it was "soul". He was talking about the soul of the human body. Your soul reflects effects the spirit within the mind. The way you look at something or somebody you are revealing the true spirit of your mind at the time. e.g. If you are looking mad at someone, you are having a bad spirit against that person. It was not the same spirit that is floating in thin air which one might think. Edited January 5, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 5, 2012 (edited) If one looks very healthy and full of energy, he was considered to be have "Shen" in him. Shen is an appearance which indicates one's body is in the state of homeostasis. If one want to be strong and healthy, one would like to have lots of Shen in him. It may be the same kind of Shen in the three Taoist treasures: 精氣神(Jin, Chi, Shen). This is the kind of Shen that Taoists want to be cultivated for longevity. Edited January 5, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpinningDjinn Posted January 5, 2012 Ah, but why would you use your eyes to determine something that is not seen? If it was something to be seen, then we would have proof of a soul. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted January 5, 2012 Ah, but why would you use your eyes to determine something that is not seen? If it was something to be seen, then we would have proof of a soul. Not only your eyes, but there is a deep connection through the eyes too.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted January 5, 2012 Like I had said before. One can make a list of definitions for Shen. When one talks about it, one must stay within a category to be in consistent with the thoughts. Lao Tzu said it was "soul". He was talking about the soul of the human body. Not sure I agree but maybe you could quote a DDJ passage to support that. Your soul reflects effects the spirit within the mind. The way you look at something or somebody you are revealing the true spirit of your mind at the time. e.g. If you are looking mad at someone, you are having a bad spirit against that person. It was not the same spirit that is floating in thin air which one might think. The ancients saw the shen as housed in the heart, not the mind. There is Yuan Shen (Original Shen) and Zhi Shen (Acquired Shen); not all of it is simply what's inside a person's body. TCM was purged of thinking too much about the spirit[ual], so it may not be as clear as it should be. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 5, 2012 (edited) Another definition of Shen (神) is deity or god. @ dawei This Lao Tzu is not that Lao Tzu(TTC). I meant the member here. Edited January 5, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 5, 2012 (edited) Not sure I agree but maybe you could quote a DDJ passage to support that. The ancients saw the shen as housed in the heart, not the mind. There is Yuan Shen (Original Shen) and Zhi Shen (Acquired Shen); not all of it is simply what's inside a person's body. TCM was purged of thinking too much about the spirit[ual], so it may not be as clear as it should be. Did you know what the ancient meant by the heart? It is the mind. I guess you haven't digested that yet. Again, you were mixing TCM in all your thoughts and misled yourself. Besides, we are discussion one character itself, not compound characters, please do not confuse the issue here. It is confuse enough already. Let's straighten out the definition of Shen before we go into the compound definitions. I know you knew the basic meaning of the characters to some level. However, you might need some work on their applications. It seems to me that you are a bit confused in your thoughts and causing some confusions here in this thread. Sorry, I have to put it to you this way because you've given me no other choice. Edited January 5, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted January 5, 2012 (edited) not to get in the middle of it, but i always understood it as the primordial shen resided in the physical heart. Not xin, the heart/mind... i have never heard that xin is shen. I think thats why its mentioned in the article Scotty posted on the heart. here is an article i found helpful. Chapter one, that is. Thanks Scotty. http://itmonline.org/shen/index.htm "In sum, shen refers to that aspect of our being that is spiritual and looks to the universe around, and is not focused on emotions. Shen draws our attention to the divine, contributes to wisdom, virtue, and calmness, and maintains our whole being in order. The spirit can be harmed by external factors if we fail to maintain vitality through good habits, physical strength, and adequate nourishment. The spirit can also be harmed by internal factors, mainly excessive emotions." Edited January 5, 2012 by anamatva Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted January 5, 2012 (edited) If you are looking mad at someone, you are having a bad spirit against that person. It was not the same spirit that is floating in thin air which one might think. You'd be surprised, because this spirit actually does 'float in the thin air'. Through Taoist practices, you can come to sense this clearly...but everyone can already sense it whether they realize or not. Other cultures call it the "evil eye" and have folk remedies for it. About the proof of the soul, if you compare people's eyes you can see lost or repressed souls, as well as healthy souls. Or maybe we don't want to call it a soul, but there is an obvious difference sometimes...so what is that! vs. Edited January 5, 2012 by Scotty Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 5, 2012 It this fair for a good comparison....??? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted January 5, 2012 Did you know what the ancient meant by the heart? It is the mind. I guess you haven't digested that yet. Again, you were mixing TCM in all your thoughts and misled yourself. Besides, we are discussion one character itself, not compound characters, please do not confuse the issue here. It is confuse enough already. Let's straighten out the definition of Shen before we go into the compound definitions. I know you knew the basic meaning of the characters to some level. However, you might need some work on their applications. It seems to me that you are a bit confused in your thoughts and causing some confusions here in this thread. Sorry, I have to put it to you this way because you've given me no other choice. It amazes me how much you talk about stuff you have no idea on. Your so full of BS. The link also states the following: "Shen, hun, and po each have a "seat" in the body, a place where they are said to rest and take residence. Thus, even though each of them can influence all aspects of the human person, they rely on certain parts of the person as a base. This situation might be likened to our own experience of working in the community and interacting with our neighbors, then returning home as a place for recuperation, rest, family interactions, and maintaining personal identity. Shen rests in the heart and vessels; hun rests in the liver; and po rests in the lungs. Although these three entities are the dominant concern in the ancient texts, in keeping with the influential system of five elements, two other organ systems are identified as having their own spiritual characteristics which are not the same as, but might be likened to, the other three: yi (intention, planning, thought, wisdom) is associated with the spleen and zhi (will; the strength to carry out yi) is associated with the kidney." Subhuti Dharmananda, Ph.D. writing on Shen Disorders is consistent with Jerry Johnson's teaching in his Medical Qigong. So I guess these guys are who have clinical experience over decades are confused in their thoughts...???...???...??? Have you ever seen someone who was "shen'ed out" in life or a clinical setting...??? Have you ever studied anything remotely close to shen disorder issues..??? How do you stack up your knowledge and application of Medical Qigong against these guys..??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 5, 2012 (edited) not to get in the middle of it, but i always understood it as the primordial shen resided in the physical heart. Not xin, the heart/mind... i have never heard that xin is shen. I think thats why its mentioned in the article Scotty posted on the heart. here is an article i found helpful. Chapter one, that is. Thanks Scotty. http://itmonline.org/shen/index.htm "In sum, shen refers to that aspect of our being that is spiritual and looks to the universe around, and is not focused on emotions. Shen draws our attention to the divine, contributes to wisdom, virtue, and calmness, and maintains our whole being in order. The spirit can be harmed by external factors if we fail to maintain vitality through good habits, physical strength, and adequate nourishment. The spirit can also be harmed by internal factors, mainly excessive emotions." 心(xin) means heart and it referred as the center of the mind. The ancients once thought that all the thoughts were originated from the heart because the heart was located almost in the center of the body. Now-a-days, people still saying "this is from the bottom of my heart" to show honesty. 神(shen) does not reside anywhere. It was only an image in the mind to describe the body condition and the appearance of a human body. This is only one of the definitions relating to the physical being of a human body. It is not a blanket definition to cover all aspects. I can only go over its definitions one by one. Shen a different meaning in a different context or another technical field. E.g., in religion, Shen means deity or god. Then, it has nothing to do with the mind. Here are some of the application of the character: 1. Relating to the appearance of the human body: 神情(shen qing): facial expression 神態(shen tai): body gesture 神氣(shen chi): proud gesture of a body expression, e.g. Chest up and serious facial expression 2. Relating to deity 神父(shen fu): godfather 神聖(shen sheng): sacred 神仙(shen xian): immortal Edited January 6, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 5, 2012 It amazes me how much you talk about stuff you have no idea on. Your so full of BS. Like I said, you are only full of TCM in your mind. Based on the way you interpret the Tao Te Ching and Zhuang Tze with your TCM knowledge which they should not be applied. Therefore, I have not further interest to be the counterpart in any of your discussions. No hard feelings. Peace. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zany Heron Posted January 6, 2012 Fantastic! Well, I think shen is the form of a being. It's "information". And IMO emotions and thoughts are quite the same; they're products of our mind (/ heart). But it's very different to understand chinese writing and language. Thank you for all the interesting posts! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer Posted January 7, 2012 (edited) Hi all, These names such as 'Shen', 'Qi', 'Ming' etc are only here to help a teacher express to the student what is happening but in truth nothing is really happening and there is no separate Shen or non-Shen. For instance, heart is often used because around the solar plexus area and below is where we feel the presence of stillness when our practice has developed. This 'feeling' or 'awareness' can also be noticed in objects around you and when this is so what is felt in the 'heart' is also felt outside the body. The confusion of heart and mind comes from meaning Mind as in Emptiness, Tao, Buddha-Nature etc and not an intellectual thought process. So what is in the 'heart' is also in the 'head' and what is 'spirit' is also what is not 'spirit'. So my point being: these different words are used for two reasons: to help a student feel that they are progressing and for someone who has 'Awakened' to try to explain what has happened. In truth, whether you Realise or not makes no difference, nothing about you changes other than knowing IT. So there is no need to get caught up in what is Shen or not because neither Shen or not-Shen exist lol! All the best, Heath Edited January 7, 2012 by Wayfarer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
