What is Wu Wei?

[Marblehead]

First there is a mountain,

Then there is no mountain,

Then there is.

 

Don't get stuck in the middle where you believe the mountain to be an illusion. Enlightenment is realizing that the mountain truely exists (though it is not permanent).

 

What are we talking about? Oh, yeah, "wu wei". Not doing. Something like the saying, "If it ain't broke don't be fixing it."

[Vmarco]

First there is a mountain,

Then there is no mountain,

Then there is.

 

Don't get stuck in the middle where you believe the mountain to be an illusion. Enlightenment is realizing that the mountain truely exists (though it is not permanent).

 

What are we talking about? Oh, yeah, "wu wei". Not doing. Something like the saying, "If it ain't broke don't be fixing it."

 

To state, "First there is a mountain" implies that one is in ignorance,...that they believe the dream is real. In meditation, if properly done, "there is no mountain." However, to truly understand the emptiness of the mountain, is to understand the form of the mountain.

 

Enlightenment is not realizing the mountain existed as form or emptiness,...but that it never existed.

 

Enlightenment is simply a awareness of the Present. No mountain ever existed in the Present.

 

There is no Present in time.

 

V

[doc benway]

Hi Steve,

 

I just wanted to write something about 'being' from what I have noticed through observing nature as this is something I have been considering for some years and you may be able to shed some light on it for me too.

 

It seemed to me that everything in life had its place or use in the world yet mankind appeared to offer little if anything. I started to investigate the nature of exchange e.g. an insect goes to a flower and helps to pollinate it and through this action both benefit. I soon realised that there is no exchange, in simply being things that benefit from one another come together. The insect takes from the flower in order to survive and the flower attracts the insect in order to do the same. Here in lies the root of the natural order and thereby what is required is provided for by other things that have a need that is harmonious but where does man fit in?

 

Unlike other life on earth, man is trying to do more than what is required of his nature. He creates a world of materialism but is trapped by the need to earn money to maintain the world he has created. Other animals and plants do not go beyond what they know and because they are less distracted by the world of desire they remain settled and consequently 'do' less and 'be' more. I use the word 'do' to mean the actions of the ego that take us away from our natural stillness.

 

Man can simply be. If we return to simple needs of survival - food, shelter, companionship and so on without reaching for more we will need less. We will have more time to experience the luxury of having nothing to do, we will likely become self sufficient and grow our own food in an organic natural manner and in doing just that provide other life forms with what they need without 'reaching out' to give it them - they come when they find what they need to take (Wu Wei - a not doing?).

 

So the key for me is - fill your day with more silence, be tranquil and still, take time to watch what is going on around you in nature, slow down, slow your metabolism, eat less, consume less, need less money, work less = have more freedom and more time In these moments we become more attuned to what is Subtle (if you look you will see how plants and animals are). When we settle we afford ourselves the opportunity for communion with the Sacred Itness within and around us. As individuals, by following this path and just being, we also provide for other people without doing - as they take from us something they need from our settled presence.

Beautiful post.

[doc benway]

First there is a mountain,

Then there is no mountain,

Then there is.

 

Don't get stuck in the middle where you believe the mountain to be an illusion. Enlightenment is realizing that the mountain truely exists (though it is not permanent).

 

What are we talking about? Oh, yeah, "wu wei". Not doing. Something like the saying, "If it ain't broke don't be fixing it."

To state, "First there is a mountain" implies that one is in ignorance,...that they believe the dream is real. In meditation, if properly done, "there is no mountain." However, to truly understand the emptiness of the mountain, is to understand the form of the mountain.

 

Enlightenment is not realizing the mountain existed as form or emptiness,...but that it never existed.

 

Enlightenment is simply a awareness of the Present. No mountain ever existed in the Present.

 

There is no Present in time.

 

V

To quote Nisargadatta

 

With wisdom I see that I am nothing

With love I see I am everything

My life dances in between the two

Edited January 10, 2012 by steve
Corrected quote

[Mark Foote]

Wei meant doing or being or activity or existence in classical pre-Qin chinese.

There were four different negatives used to define which one: Bu or Fu or Wu or Fei

 

Wu marks thus Wei as a subjective noun: "to have no activity".

 

(bu and fu marked verbs, wu and fei nouns, bu and wu subjective, fu and fei objective)

 

This very strange grammar dates back to the earliest development of the written chinese language:

The diviners used two negatives defining verbs or nouns, when writing their pronostiques on one side of the turtle plastrons, and they used two other negatives defining verbs or nouns, when writing what really did happen on the other side of the turtle plastrons.

 

Thanks much for the clarification.

 

A pause while I offer a view of the current state of cosmology:

 

 

On wu wei, I like the monk who when asked what he was doing, replied he was doing nothing. When his questioner said that was idleness, the monk replied that if he were doing something, that would be idleness.

 

Gautama the Buddha taught that the cessation of the activities is gradual. For one who has entered the first meditative state (hypnogogic state?), activity of speech has ceased; for one who has entered the fourth meditative state, activity of inhalation and exhalation has ceased; for one who has entered the realm of the cessation of perception and sensation, perception and sensation have ceased. The activities he referred to were the habitual activities, the volitive activities- thus, volitive activity in inhalation and exhalation ceases, volitive activity of perception and sensation has ceased.

 

I'm going to just be where I am for awhile, and see what I feel and think, and maybe do nothing.

[lienshan]

On wu wei, I like the monk who when asked what he was doing, replied he was doing nothing.

When his questioner said that was idleness, the monk replied that if he were doing something,

that would be idleness.

The monk was conversating with the questioner and was thus doing something.

That's the problem with 'doing nothing': we are when living always doing something e.g. respirating.

 

I do often read Laozi as opposed to passages of the earliest known 'taoist' text Ta Yi Sheng Shui e.g.

 

Below the soil is similar to the word earth.

Above the air is similar to the word heaven.

Dao is also its character; Early Dawn is its name.

Why Dao follows what's duty surely rely on its name.

Therefore is the duty completed and itself prolonged.

That the sage follows duty does also rely on its name.

Therefore is the merit completed and himself not boned.

 

That'll say I understand wu wei as opposed to the duty of dao and the sage.

[Marblehead]

To state, "First there is a mountain" implies that one is in ignorance,...that they believe the dream is real. In meditation, if properly done, "there is no mountain." However, to truly understand the emptiness of the mountain, is to understand the form of the mountain.

 

Enlightenment is not realizing the mountain existed as form or emptiness,...but that it never existed.

 

Enlightenment is simply a awareness of the Present. No mountain ever existed in the Present.

 

There is no Present in time.

 

V

 

No, I am not in ignorance. The mountain is real. It is your philosophy that is not real.

 

Sure, I realize that while in meditation there is no mountain. The poem above states exactly that. But when we return to reality from deep meditation the mountain is still there. It is we who have had the illusion that the mountain does not exist.

 

And I totally disagree that enlightenment is the realization that the mountain never existed. That is called being totally delusional.

 

If no mountain ever existed why do people continue to climb Mt Everest? That mountain truely does exist. And yes, you too exist else I would not be speaking to this above post of yours.

 

And I also think you have your time confused. There was a present before this present; we call this the past. If we are lucky there will be a present after this present; we call this the future. Time began at the moment of the big bang. Time is the movement of the univers and the objects therein. We humans have found a way to measure it that is useful to us. To the universe, this means nothing, of course.

 

You exist. You were born of your mother, you will age and then die. This means nothing to the universe. But I would think it does mean something to you and those who care about you.

 

And yes, I exist. And so does my chair. I am not an illusion. I am not totally sure about you though.

[Marblehead]

To quote Nisargadatta

 

With wisdom I see that I am nothing

With love I see I am everything

My life dances in between the two

 

Now I could speak to this and the discussion would have sincere meaning but we are still trying to talk about wu wei here so I will put my words on hold until some other time.

 

Well, actually, I will say something.

 

Rene has often said that she tries to dance between wu and yo - that is, one foot in the Manifest and one foot in the Mystery. If we get to that state we can dance the dance of life to the fullest of our capacities.

[Marblehead]

 

I'm going to just be where I am for awhile, ...

 

That is truely the best any of us can do at any point of time in our life.

[Marblehead]

 

That'll say I understand wu wei as opposed to the duty of dao and the sage.

 

If we can grasp that we have taken the first step toward (no, I am not going to say enlightenment, hehehe) whatever.

[zerostao]

if what we are calling illusion an illusion becoz our sensory perception may not judge everything exactly just right?

then yes, i agree there is alot of illusion in this world. however this does not mean that our world is not real. it does exist.

to see the world as it truly is requires that one would remove their ego and delusions.

a dream is different than an illusion.

[doc benway]

Now I could speak to this and the discussion would have sincere meaning but we are still trying to talk about wu wei here so I will put my words on hold until some other time.

 

Well, actually, I will say something.

 

Rene has often said that she tries to dance between wu and yo - that is, one foot in the Manifest and one foot in the Mystery. If we get to that state we can dance the dance of life to the fullest of our capacities.

I think this is intimately related to Wu Wei.

[Marblehead]

I think this is intimately related to Wu Wei.

 

Indeed. That is why I spoke further.

 

Wu wei, IMO, is total awareness without value judgements so I suppose that everything is related to our state of wu vs yo.

[3bob]

A variation on the "mountain":

 

"Before I had studied Zen for thirty years, I saw mountains as mountains,

and waters as waters.

 

When I arrived at a more intimate knowledge, I came to the point

where I saw that mountains are not mountains, and waters are not waters.

 

But now that I have got its very substance I am at rest.

For it's just that I see mountains once again as mountains,

and waters once again as waters".

 

Ching-yuan

 

(besides, "When have ducks ever flown away?")

Edited January 11, 2012 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

A variation on the "mountain":

 

Yep. That is why the warning against getting stuck at step two (the mountains do not exist) because there is a third step that brings us back to reality - we just see it in a more encompassing view.

[Mark Foote]

The monk was conversating with the questioner and was thus doing something.

That's the problem with 'doing nothing': we are when living always doing something e.g. respirating.

 

I do often read Laozi as opposed to passages of the earliest known 'taoist' text Ta Yi Sheng Shui e.g.

 

Below the soil is similar to the word earth.

Above the air is similar to the word heaven.

Dao is also its character; Early Dawn is its name.

Why Dao follows what's duty surely rely on its name.

Therefore is the duty completed and itself prolonged.

That the sage follows duty does also rely on its name.

Therefore is the merit completed and himself not boned.

 

That'll say I understand wu wei as opposed to the duty of dao and the sage.

 

I think it's along the lines of Foyan's two illnesses: looking for an ass while riding an ass, and riding an ass unable to dismount the ass. Why mount the ass at all, Foyan asked, back in the twelfth century.

 

The monk who said "if I were doing something, that would be idleness" had no problems 'cause he never mounted the ass, even if he sometimes rode.

 

I can't quite follow the quote from Ta Yi Sheng Shui- duty sounds Confucian, but I have no idea what's being expressed in these lines. Does it really translate "not boned"? Help, can you clarify this translation?

[Tom Lin]

Hi Steve,

 

I just wanted to write something about 'being' from what I have noticed through observing nature as this is something I have been considering for some years and you may be able to shed some light on it for me too.

 

It seemed to me that everything in life had its place or use in the world yet mankind appeared to offer little if anything. I started to investigate the nature of exchange e.g. an insect goes to a flower and helps to pollinate it and through this action both benefit. I soon realised that there is no exchange, in simply being things that benefit from one another come together. The insect takes from the flower in order to survive and the flower attracts the insect in order to do the same. Here in lies the root of the natural order and thereby what is required is provided for by other things that have a need that is harmonious but where does man fit in?

 

Unlike other life on earth, man is trying to do more than what is required of his nature. He creates a world of materialism but is trapped by the need to earn money to maintain the world he has created. Other animals and plants do not go beyond what they know and because they are less distracted by the world of desire they remain settled and consequently 'do' less and 'be' more. I use the word 'do' to mean the actions of the ego that take us away from our natural stillness.

 

Man can simply be. If we return to simple needs of survival - food, shelter, companionship and so on without reaching for more we will need less. We will have more time to experience the luxury of having nothing to do, we will likely become self sufficient and grow our own food in an organic natural manner and in doing just that provide other life forms with what they need without 'reaching out' to give it them - they come when they find what they need to take (Wu Wei - a not doing?).

 

So the key for me is - fill your day with more silence, be tranquil and still, take time to watch what is going on around you in nature, slow down, slow your metabolism, eat less, consume less, need less money, work less = have more freedom and more time In these moments we become more attuned to what is Subtle (if you look you will see how plants and animals are). When we settle we afford ourselves the opportunity for communion with the Sacred Itness within and around us. As individuals, by following this path and just being, we also provide for other people without doing - as they take from us something they need from our settled presence.

 

Mmm i agree, this is a great post.

 

 

 

Some days i just wonder what life would be like if everyone dropped the desire for materialism/control and became "one with tao/nature"

[Marblehead]

Some days i just wonder what life would be like if everyone dropped the desire for materialism/control and became "one with tao/nature"

 

Nice idealism. Hehehe. I consider myself to have attained 'peace & contentment' but I am no where close to dropping my materialism and control of my little world. The security thing, you know?

[Wayfarer]

This has been a wonderful discussion! I have only come across the verse about the mountain in a song of the same name by Donovan didn't realise it was Zen or Taoism. Although I'm stating the obvious to everyone here and I apologise if this is sooooo simple it hacks people off - here is my view.

 

"First there is a mountain" - what we everyday folks see.

 

"Then there is no mountain" - an enlightened person sees a mountain-shaped expression of Suchness because they have awakened to how that appearance is manifest in the world - so to call it a mountain is to make it distinct from something 'else'. The mountain is still there but it is not a mountain

 

"Then there is." - in realising there is only one, the awakened person forgets even oneness and looks at what-we-call-the-mountain but sees no difference when compared to something not-a-mountain.

 

So yes, the mountain is not an illusion, it is very much there however it is has become a 'mountain' because we have chosen to make it distinct (which is the illusion). If human beings were not present on earth what would the mountain be called? An awakened person views it with how Foyan described "clear eyes"; they view it for what it is without name and meaning because they have experienced the Subtle and the Hidden - which is not hidden from view lol, nor is very subtle!!!

 

So, I am here, you are here, the mountain is here - but if we keep stopping in our lives and take the time to 'observe' - I swear on my life - that you will begin to notice a common trait in all objects. You will see me and notice that I have a quality that is also shared in the mountain, or a cloud etc. What Taoists and Zennists for centuries have been trying to tell us is "look to the stillness of things - this is the key to realising what is truly present".

 

TIP - if you pick a still day that has plenty of blue sky but with some clouds just look up and you may notice it. This ITNESS can be noticed on TV or in photographs so you don't have to wait for the right weather. If you notice a sudden 'turning' of the stomach, butterflies, or a sudden change around the solar plexus it is because the IT that is you has noticed the IT that is not you and your body has recognised what your head has forgotten!

 

 

No, I am not in ignorance. The mountain is real. It is your philosophy that is not real.

 

Sure, I realize that while in meditation there is no mountain. The poem above states exactly that. But when we return to reality from deep meditation the mountain is still there. It is we who have had the illusion that the mountain does not exist.

 

And I totally disagree that enlightenment is the realization that the mountain never existed. That is called being totally delusional.

 

If no mountain ever existed why do people continue to climb Mt Everest? That mountain truely does exist. And yes, you too exist else I would not be speaking to this above post of yours.

 

And I also think you have your time confused. There was a present before this present; we call this the past. If we are lucky there will be a present after this present; we call this the future. Time began at the moment of the big bang. Time is the movement of the univers and the objects therein. We humans have found a way to measure it that is useful to us. To the universe, this means nothing, of course.

 

You exist. You were born of your mother, you will age and then die. This means nothing to the universe. But I would think it does mean something to you and those who care about you.

 

And yes, I exist. And so does my chair. I am not an illusion. I am not totally sure about you though.

Edited January 12, 2012 by Wayfarer

[Birch]

Mountain as mountain sees itself, not how you see her (sorry for choice of personal pronoun, just came up:-))

[ChiDragon]

Mountain as mountain as she stands. There is a sunny side on the south side and a shady side in the north side. The ancients called the former as "Yang" and the latter as "Yin". The mountain cannot be invisible again as soon she becomes visible; so, the concept of Yin-Yang was retained to manifest the existence of Tao.

[Marblehead]

I am so glad that others have seen the mountain. I would be in distress if I were the only person who has seen the mountain. But the valley between the two mountains is real too. That is my place of rest - in the Valley Spirit.

[Mark Foote]

I am so glad that others have seen the mountain. I would be in distress if I were the only person who has seen the mountain. But the valley between the two mountains is real too. That is my place of rest - in the Valley Spirit.

 

These mountains and waters of the present are the expression of the old buddhas. Each, abiding in its own dharma state, fulfills exhaustive virtues. Because they are the circumstances "prior to the kalpa of emptiness", they are this life of the present; because they are the self "before the germination of any subtle sign", they are liberated in their actual occurrence. Since the virtues of the mountain are high and broad, the spiritual power to ride the clouds is always mastered from the mountains, and the marvelous ability to follow the wind is inevitably liberated from the mountains.

 

from Dogen's Shobogenzo, translated by Bielefeldt, here.

 

Love that!

[Marblehead]

Love that!

 

It is oftentimes difficult for me to feel comfortable with Buddhist-oriented thoughts.

 

I had no problem with this one.

 

Thanks for sharing.

[lienshan]

I can't quite follow the quote from Ta Yi Sheng Shui- duty sounds Confucian, but I have no idea what's being expressed in these lines. Does it really translate "not boned"? Help, can you clarify this translation?

It's brushed on the slips 10-12 in this link: http://www.tao-te-king.org/taiyi_shengshui.htm

 

That translator prefers 'task' to 'duty' and 'suffers no harm' to 'not boned'.

 

What's expressed in these lines is very early 'pre-Laozi' taoism!