What is Wu Wei?

[ChiDragon]

It would be an error to separate man from nature.

Man sure has to deal with Nature and caused lots of error...

[dawei]

It would be an error to separate man from nature.

Agreed... so I guess you don't agree with the presented idea of Wu Wei is defined in relation to destruction of nature?

 

In fact, I looked up Wu Wei in several chapters and NEVER find a single reference to nature... instead I find again and again it is in relation to the ten thousand or people:

 

Ch. / Assigned to / In relation to:

2 / Sage / Ten Thousand things

3 / Sage / People

37 / Dao / Ten Thousand things

43 / LZ / People

48 / Individual / World

57 / Sage / People

64 / Sage / Ten Thousand things

 

 

 

It is rather a question how "I" can behave in such a way that the other's "it-self-so-ing" will have a maximum room of growing and realization.[/i]

This is a very important consideration, IMO. And very troublesome if looked into very deeply.

I do agree that this is beneficial view as it avoids the problem of 'intention' and seems to focus on interference more... but on some level, it feels to put too much importance on the idea of knowing the outcome, but in context he says this is really only done after the fact to validate if something was Wu Wei or not.

[dawei]

As I mentioned earlier I think intent is a natural manifestation that is a part of the nature of consciousness. And it's quite tricky to peel away the layers of intent particularly as we get to the deeper, hidden, and more subtle layers of ourselves.

I generally agree. I like the TCM/Medical Qigong model which relates the manifested aspect as 'acquired' and the spiritual aspect as 'congenital' (or original), whether emotions, spirit, etc. They are different yet the same.

 

That said, I do think it is possible to act without intent and I also think that it is not possible to act without intent...

Harmonious Emptiness beat me to the punch line... I think we need to see the original (non-duality) and the manifest(duality) aspects are like chapter 1 says: Differ in name but from the same source.

[dawei]

Wu Wei is natural, 自然(Zi Ren).

 

Natural is anything that can happen which man cannot intervene.

I think one can intervene and still be Wu Wei... I think the key part is if the intervening then interferes with the Wu Wei/Zi Ran of another. But I can see who even my explanation is not really quite there either.

 

LZ says to assist in but not interfere in the growth of the ten thousand things. A very subtle balance.

[doc benway]

can't have non-duality without duality?

Not necessarily can't but rather don't

 

I've been listening to some beautiful lectures by John O'Donohue and have mentioned him a few times in a variety of threads. I'm currently listening to some discussion of contradictions and how valuable they can be in our lives and how unfortunate it is that many of us have adopted the decidely Western mindset of contradiction meaning something is wrong or incorrect - that one side of the contradiction must be correct and the other incorrect. I think this comes from one of the early Greek philosophers but I'm not certain of that.

 

Here's a quote that I posted elsewhere - I like it so much that I tried to commit it to memory. Sorry to repeat it but if nothing else, it helps me remember it!

"And if you want a point of departure for this new journey of soul, don't choose an intention, don't choose a prayer, don't choose a therapy, and don't choose a spiritual method. Look inwards and discovery a point of contradiction within yourself. Stay faithful to the aura and presence of the contradiction. Hold it gently in your embrace and ask it what it wants to teach you."

John O'Donohue

[ChiDragon]

Double posted.....

Edited January 16, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I think one can intervene and still be Wu Wei... I think the key part is if the intervening then interferes with the Wu Wei/Zi Ran of another. But I can see who even my explanation is not really quite there either.

 

LZ says to assist in but not interfere in the growth of the ten thousand things. A very subtle balance.

 

By the interpreted definition of Wu Wei:

"Take no abusive action to interfere with Nature."

 

Even though assist and interfere have a difference in meaning, for better or worse, don't you think it was still interfering...??? Assisting means that you are trying to make things better by interfering, in a way, from something which might not be as good as it could be...??? Another words, as soon as one gets involve with something was considered to be interfered or intervened.

 

Your statement is valid because "to assist" is not an abusive action. However, in case the outcome of the situation became worsen as the result from the assistance, then the action may become slightly abusive, so to speak. Hence, it becomes not Wu Wei because some harm has done.

 

Edited to add:

BTW Here is a second thought. To assist may not be Wu Wei because one did not "let Nature take its course" even though it was not abusive.

Edited January 16, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Assisting means that you are trying to make things better by interfering, in a way, from something which might not be as good as it could be

I am sure I won't be able to express my point clear enough as philosophical discussions are limiting. Our thinking and words are from the phenomenal mind but there is a point at which this has to cease to be the basis of our understanding of how duality / non-duality lose their distinction (and it goes for all the concepts like: mind/no-mind, acquired/original, etc).

 

I don't see 'assisting' as you do. Chapter 64 states it as assisting without interfering. Instead of just trying to explain myself more, I looked up to see if there are others who translate similar ideas.

 

Link #1

He assists the natural self-becoming (ziran) trend of things, but does not act/tamper/interfere (wei) with it.

 

Link #2

 

The Sage is able to assist the naturalness of the ten thousand things and unable to take action.

 

Link #3

 

[Tao] assists them, but does not claim they depend on it;

It nourishes things, but does not attempt to control them.

[dawei]

However, in case the outcome of the situation became worsen as the result from the assistance, then the action may become slightly abusive, so to speak. Hence, it becomes not Wu Wei because some harm has done.

Yes, I understand the point here. And this would require later post-evaluation of circumstances as James Wang suggests. I suspect we don't really disagree too much on this as a philosophical discussion and description.

 

But discretely breaking life down to an evaluation of a series of outcomes of Wu Wei or not Wu Wei is not Wu Wei too. So, IMO, the understanding is not complete until we drop our thinking on it on a purely philosophical level.

 

Edit:

I see your last point about 'assisting' and letting 'nature take it's course'. I agree that 'assisting' must allow this, as the three links suggest.

Edited January 16, 2012 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

I am sure I won't be able to express my point clear enough as philosophical discussions are limiting. Our thinking and words are from the phenomenal mind but there is a point at which this has to cease to be the basis of our understanding of how duality / non-duality lose their distinction (and it goes for all the concepts like: mind/no-mind, acquired/original, etc).

 

I don't see 'assisting' as you do. Chapter 64 states it as assisting without interfering. Instead of just trying to explain myself more, I looked up to see if there are others who translate similar ideas.

 

Link #1

He assists the natural self-becoming (ziran) trend of things, but does not act/tamper/interfere (wei) with it.

 

Link #2

 

The Sage is able to assist the naturalness of the ten thousand things and unable to take action.

 

Link #3

 

[Tao] assists them, but does not claim they depend on it;

It nourishes things, but does not attempt to control them.

 

I do see that all the three links do suggesting "let nature take its course". The "assist" in the links was described as part of the natural process to let all things develop. LaoTze's concept of Wu Wei was to assure that no action of any kind which might cause adversity, mainly, to man by intervention.

 

LaoTze was always suggesting that rulers "rule with Wu Wei" as you had pointed out in Chapters 2 and 64.

[Mark Foote]

Be careful here.

What about the intention to act without intent?

In choosing to follow Wu Wei, are you not already discriminating?

And if it required impeccability to maintain that, are you already struggling against something?

I remember Blanche Hartman from S.F. Zen Center talking about one day when she was on her way to a day of mindfulness and she buttoned her shirt backwards or something. I do revere some of the teachers I met from Japan, whom I thought had a certain grace and poise, and sometimes I think I should be concerned to practice hard and be more like them; in the end, though, I think Blanche has the right approach, to laugh at herself and be what she is.

 

I confess, that what I wrote might not make any sense to someone coming to it cold. I am playing with the relationship of several things, among them the hypnogogic state (between waking and sleeping) which I'm referring to as "waking up and falling asleep", the roll of a sense of location in "waking up and falling asleep", and the cessation of volition in perception and sensation through a sense of location in "waking up and falling asleep".

 

I would say that I have a compass, and that compass comes out when I feel like I'm starting to walk in circles, and I use that compass to sight the next landmark in the direction I want to go before I put it away. The compass is the cessation of volition, in speech, in inhalation and exhalation, and in perception and sensation, and the landmark is the combination of disparate elements at the instant of cessation. The landmark is always right where I am, every contact of sense including the sixth sense enters into where I am even before I know it, and the ability to feel that arises with each contact informs where I am. When I am waking up and falling asleep, I can witness the action that arises out of where I am as I am where I am. That action is wu wei.

[doc benway]

I remember Blanche Hartman from S.F. Zen Center talking about one day when she was on her way to a day of mindfulness and she buttoned her shirt backwards or something. I do revere some of the teachers I met from Japan, whom I thought had a certain grace and poise, and sometimes I think I should be concerned to practice hard and be more like them; in the end, though, I think Blanche has the right approach, to laugh at herself and be what she is.

 

I confess, that what I wrote might not make any sense to someone coming to it cold. I am playing with the relationship of several things, among them the hypnogogic state (between waking and sleeping) which I'm referring to as "waking up and falling asleep", the roll of a sense of location in "waking up and falling asleep", and the cessation of volition in perception and sensation through a sense of location in "waking up and falling asleep".

 

I would say that I have a compass, and that compass comes out when I feel like I'm starting to walk in circles, and I use that compass to sight the next landmark in the direction I want to go before I put it away. The compass is the cessation of volition, in speech, in inhalation and exhalation, and in perception and sensation, and the landmark is the combination of disparate elements at the instant of cessation. The landmark is always right where I am, every contact of sense including the sixth sense enters into where I am even before I know it, and the ability to feel that arises with each contact informs where I am. When I am waking up and falling asleep, I can witness the action that arises out of where I am as I am where I am. That action is wu wei.

Sounds like very interesting practice.

Thanks for the reply.

[Mark Foote]

Thanks, Steve, thanks for the questions they were all right on.

 

I thought about this as I went over the hills to fetch my supper, and the central question I guess is about choice. The practice I have, is really so many disparate elements, and it comes to me out of necessity, although sometimes I'm the very one that is driving me to that experience of necessity. My conclusion is that I can't help being attracted to the feeling that belongs to my own well-being, and likewise I can't help being averse to the feeling that belongs to my own illness. Some would say they have a choice, but my conclusion is that I do not.

 

Let's see if we can tip the boat!

[Marblehead]

Some would say they have a choice, but my conclusion is that I do not.

 

And you know that I will always argue against this conclusion.

 

You, and all of us, have a choice. But we also have the responsibility for the choices we make. (That's the hard part; accepting responsibility for our reactions, actions, intentions and thoughts.)

[Mark Foote]

And you know that I will always argue against this conclusion.

 

You, and all of us, have a choice. But we also have the responsibility for the choices we make. (That's the hard part; accepting responsibility for our reactions, actions, intentions and thoughts.)

 

[Rishi Das]

Moving without movement, the divine pervades my every cell and wu wei becomes a reality.

 

Just my experience with it.

[Mark Foote]

[Marblehead]

but at land's end

the footsteps vanish

 

But if you make it back out you can make more little footprints in the sand.

 

 

Moving without movement, the divine pervades my every cell and wu wei becomes a reality.

 

I like that.

[KarthusMeanor]

To me Wu Wei is spitting on the ground instead of your brothers face.

[doc benway]

Some would say they have a choice, but my conclusion is that I do not.

 

And you know that I will always argue against this conclusion.

 

You, and all of us, have a choice. But we also have the responsibility for the choices we make. (That's the hard part; accepting responsibility for our reactions, actions, intentions and thoughts.)

Ever consider the possibility that the "I" that makes the choices comes after the fact?

[dawei]

To me Wu Wei is spitting on the ground instead of your brothers face.

Wu Wei is spitting...

 

Whatever you add to it is your own prejudice.

[Mark Foote]

Ever consider the possibility that the "I" that makes the choices comes after the fact?

 

A friend of mine was telling about some research to that effect, I see Wikipedia has an article on the neuroscience of free will and as soon as they are done with their protest I intend to look it up.

[Marblehead]

Ever consider the possibility that the "I" that makes the choices comes after the fact?

 

Yes, Steve, I have considered that. Afterall, all my Buddhists friends here keep reminding me of that possibility.

 

Yes, I do hold to the concept of 'cause and effect' and this is what used to cause me to wonder about exactly how much free will and choice I really have.

 

But fortunately I have read a little of the origins of the Zoroastrian religion (the oldest known monotheistic religion) and this religion supports my understanding that I have free will and freedon of choice.

 

Now, I will readily agree that there are limits - we each have our own set of limits - some people are limited more than are others.

 

And I will even conceed that any action or non-action undertaken while in the state of 'wu wei' is a direct result of 'cause and effect' and totally free of any free will or freedom of choice. (There is no 'intent' in the state of 'wu wei'.)

[doc benway]

A friend of mine was telling about some research to that effect, I see Wikipedia has an article on the neuroscience of free will and as soon as they are done with their protest I intend to look it up.

There are a variety of reasonably well designed experiments that seem to imply the "free will" component of choice is more a recognition than intention.

 

Yes, Steve, I have considered that. Afterall, all my Buddhists friends here keep reminding me of that possibility.

 

Yes, I do hold to the concept of 'cause and effect' and this is what used to cause me to wonder about exactly how much free will and choice I really have.

 

But fortunately I have read a little of the origins of the Zoroastrian religion (the oldest known monotheistic religion) and this religion supports my understanding that I have free will and freedon of choice.

 

Now, I will readily agree that there are limits - we each have our own set of limits - some people are limited more than are others.

 

And I will even conceed that any action or non-action undertaken while in the state of 'wu wei' is a direct result of 'cause and effect' and totally free of any free will or freedom of choice. (There is no 'intent' in the state of 'wu wei'.)

 

I don't believe in free will or the absence of free will.

I'm open to the possibility of both.

 

Through meditation and investigation I have come to the conclusion that the "I" that makes our choices and claims responsibility for being the generator of intent, the thinker of our thoughts, is just another thought. It seems to be tagged to be the "identity" thought, much like certain thoughts are tagged as "memory" and others tagged in other ways to help distinguish past, present, future, etc... This tagging process allows a memory to feel different than a "present" thought, helping to avoid confusion. It also seems to be responsible for the experience we call "deja vu" when a present thought is accidentally tagged as a memory. Nevertheless, "I" is just another thought.

 

So whether it comes before or after the action is interesting to consider.

If it comes before then how is it generated?

Who or what is the "I" that generates the thought "I"?

Well, that's a thought also....

What is the source of intention and choice?

It leads us directly to the Vedanta method.

 

And if it comes after then we are always in a state of Wu Wei, we just delude ourselves otherwise and everything is exactly as it should be and we cannot possibly cause it to be otherwise...

 

And if you practice the Vedanta method for a while you just may find yourself reaching the same conclusion as the second case implies.

 

Fun stuff to ponder on a day off...

 

Or you can just tend your garden... that's fun too!

And much more productive!!

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Using free will to abstain from using free will.