What is Wu Wei?

[Marblehead]

Or you can just tend your garden... that's fun too!

And much more productive!!

 

I did that for a while this morning after I tended to the fish ponds first thing in the morning. After the gardens was car work and now "I" am done for the day.

 

I won't argue the "I" concept here. You already know where I stand in that regard.

 

Now, I will agree that everything is exactly the way it is supposed to be at this very moment in time. But I will suggest that I had free will to work at the ponds, gardens and the car or do something else. Okay, so the ponds and gardens were preplanned from yesterday - things I knew I wanted to do today. The car was possible because it didn't take very long to do the ponds and gardens.

 

I could still be outside working on the car but I decided I had done enough for today. Again, free choice.

 

No, I don't believe I have been in the state of wu wei today yet because everything I have done so far has been done with intent. Even this post is the result of intent.

[Marblehead]

Using free will to abstain from using free will.

 

That could be called wu wei but it could also be called being lazy.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

more accurately would be indecicive lol

indecisive

whatever.

[Marblehead]

more accurately would be indecicive lol

indecisive

whatever.

 

Okay. Indecisive it is.

 

I went grocery shopping Tuesday and they asked me if I wanted paper or plastic and it took me about 30 seconds to decide that I wanted my stuff in paper bags.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

It's hard to not care either or when people are forcing your to choose!

 

 

"do you want salt in your soup?"

"dont care."

"yes or no??"

">.> uhhmmm.... <.< maybe? surprise me."

"yes or no?!?"

"o.o er? you choose."

*demonic flames of womanly scorn*

"YESPLEASETHANKYOU"

Edited January 19, 2012 by Hot Nirvana Judo Trend

[Mark Foote]

 

No, I don't believe I have been in the state of wu wei today yet because everything I have done so far has been done with intent. Even this post is the result of intent.

 

 

'One significant finding of modern studies is that a person's brain seems to commit to certain decisions before the person becomes aware of having made them. Researchers have found delays of about half a second (discussed in sections below). With contemporary brain scanning technology, other scientists in 2008 were able to predict with 60% accuracy whether subjects would press a button with their left or right hand up to 10 seconds before the subject became aware of having made that choice.[6] These and other findings have led some scientists, like Patrick Haggard, to reject some forms of "free will".' (from Wikipedia, "Neuroscience of free will")

[livewei]

I have just joined this community and I am also new to the Tao. I am looking into what extent it is compatible with my current philosophy and understanding of the world and at the moment it seems like a perfect match.

 

After a 10 days Vipassana retreat that I did 6 months ago one of my two biggest takeaway, that changed my way of looking at the world, is a concept that naturally came up to me and became very important in my life. From my current understanding of Tao and lack of better words I'll call it wu wei.

 

However, I have the opposite view on it than that of Marblehead that says:

 

Now, I will readily agree that there are limits - we each have our own set of limits - some people are limited more than are others.

 

And I will even conceed that any action or non-action undertaken while in the state of 'wu wei' is a direct result of 'cause and effect' and totally free of any free will or freedom of choice. (There is no 'intent' in the state of 'wu wei'.)

 

Instead I believe that whenever we happen to follow wu wei (that everybody does from time to time) it is the only time that we are not under the laws of cause and effect. This means that our actions cannot be predicted in any way. And this is the only time when we have real free will. Every other moment we are doing something because of other reasons, being them internal (psycological, biological etc) or external.

 

We are "limited" every time we don't follow wu wei, and we act like robots.

 

The meaning of life is following wu wei as much as possible and it is the best way to maximize happiness and live fully.

Why would wu wei be a direct result of cause and effect?

Is this a taoist concept or a personal spin to the common interpretation of it?

If you want I could give you a better description of my concept of wu wei and practical examples. So you can tell me if it actually can be assimilated to the Taoist wu wei.

Edited January 20, 2012 by livewei

[Marblehead]

"One significant finding ..."

 

Yep. That is why I will, at some point while discussing free will, incluce that we do have limits. I think a fair statement would be that there are many people who are totally restricted by limits while others have few limits.

 

Who of us know how much our past experiences effect the decisions we make today? All that stuff, some of it total crap, stored in our brain effects how we think and decisions we make. And this is why I hold to the concept that we should unlearn or at least question those things we have been taught by others.

 

I think we would be able to make much better decisions if we clear our mind of all prejudices and descriminatory thoughts. Yeah, even attain a state of "beyond good and evil".

[Marblehead]

Hi New Guy! This is a very excellent observation from someone so new to the forum and very worthy of a response so here goes:

 

Instead I believe that whenever we happen to follow wu wei (that everybody does from time to time) it is the only time that we are not under the laws of cause and effect. This means that our actions cannot be predicted in any way. And this is the only time when we have real free will. Every other moment we are doing something because of other reasons, being them internal (psycological, biological etc) or external.

 

We are "limited" every time we don't follow wu wei, and we act like robots.

 

The meaning of life is following wu wei as much as possible and it is the best way to maximize happiness and live fully.

Why would wu wei be a direct result of cause and effect?

Is this a taoist concept or a personal spin to the common interpretation of it?

If you want I could give you a better description of my concept of wu wei and practical examples. So you can tell me if it actually can be assimilated to the Taoist wu wei.

 

First, let me say that I do not disagree with you. I think we are only looking at the concept from a different perspective.

 

When I spoke of "cause and effect" above I was speaking to "external causes" resulting in "thoughtless effects". Now, my word "thoughtless" is not to be understood as something negative here. What I am referring to is action (or non-action) without thought. That is, responding (or not) intuitionally (instinctually, if you will).

 

I agree with you that while in the state of wu wei we are totally unpredictable from a casual observers point of view. But one who knows the person who is in the state of wu wei could pretty accurately perdict what the person would do in various external environments. That is, the person in the state of wu wei will always do (or not) the 'right thing'. Of course the 'right thing' will be based in that person's life philosophy and this is never observable by the casual observer.

 

And then, it is possible for a person to be constantly in a state of wu wei and in this case the casual observer would never know this to be the case - they would think that the person were just being themself, an Average Jane or Joe. (I had to include the feminine here.)

 

(Please keep in mind that when I am posting here that I am presenting "my understandings" and not some Taoist written text. I do not nor cannot speak for Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu. I will quote them when I feel it is necessary.)

 

So yes, I agree with you when looked at from your point of view.

[KarthusMeanor]

What if it is just not interfering in karma?

[livewei]

Thank you for your though-full reply. I now understand your point of view, we had a different perspective on the concept of free will.

I understand that you meant that whatever you did was a conscious decision of the "I" while you were not in a state of wu wei. If you were in a state of wu wei the decision would not be made by "you" but by the wu wei, or nature, it would be a perfect action and you would just follow that. And this would not be free will of the "I" so from a certain perspective it is not free will.

 

However, I believe that the concept of I is just built by our mind, so I don't mind if the author is "I" or the wu wei for a perfect action. In any case when this concept of "I" dissolves the only possible author of the actions is the wu wei.

 

Apart from that there is another different perspective that I now realized from this sentence:

"one who knows the person who is in the state of wu wei could pretty accurately perdict"

My point of view was not of pretty accurately predict but of *perfectly* predict an action. An example would be a super computer that has access to every possible scientifically available variable.

In theory he could say what would be the exact trayectory of every hand movement etc.

This is something that would only be possible (from my idea of wu wei) when a person is not in a state of wu wei. In fact when you would be in that state (to any degree) the action is not decided by the variables only, but nature itself would help you in doing it. This is something that it is not possible to predict and it is a concept that escape the prison of predetermination and makes life interesting to live. Being able to tap into the wiseness of wu wei when one really needs it (or all the time if you are a perfect being, but I don't believe anyone can be totally perfect in this earth so even an enlightened person could follow it for 99% of the time, which is a good approximation).

 

Now to the examples where I see wu wei in real life so to give an example to why I think about this concept so highly, (however I believe that a person can have an intuition of wu wei, but then a little blockage doesn't let him execute it in the way he thought and when this happens I consider that the person is connected to the wu wei to a certain degree):

-. If you are trying to throw a tennis ball in a net that it is only 1 cm smaller than a net from 20 meters and you try to do it by thinking about it. With your normal aim skills and all the calculation about the wind etc you would have no chance to speak of to do it right in 1 shot. The only way to have a chance is not to think about anything and connect with the wu wey when you throw the ball.

-. An interview to a composer about how he composed his most successfull songs he replied that the best songs did not come up from him actively thinking about them but they would just present to him already formed in certain moment of his life. The same apply to all forms of art.

-. Even in being funny to make the best jokes I believe that they come up when in a state of wu-wei, which is being spontaneous to the maximum and let the path unfold.

-. Even when one dances and forgets about all the moves and just flows connects to a certain degree to this force and can dance much better than in a normal state.

-. Also the deepest thoughts as it is well known come when one is not thinking about anything, meditating.

 

Do you think all those are example of wu wei?

Or am I mixing something up?

Naturally the same can be seen also in actions that are normally achievable when one is not connected to the wu-wei, like for everyday actions like cleaning the plates. I gave those examples to show actions that normally are outside of the possibility of the I in question and are only possible because of the wu wei. Nobody normally cares or is interested about the best possible movements to clean the plates .

 

In short I believe that every moment when one is present to a certain degree to it and can connect to the wu wei to a certain degree it is a moment that is worth living. Every other moment it is a mechanical action of the I that has no much meaning and it is indifferent if one lives it or not.

Edited January 20, 2012 by livewei

[ChiDragon]

 

If you want I could give you a better description of my concept of wu wei and practical examples. So you can tell me if it actually can be assimilated to the Taoist wu wei.

 

Please do but narrower....

Edited January 21, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Do you think all those are example of wu wei?

Or am I mixing something up?

 

I think you have a pretty good handle on it now. I didn't see anything in the post that I felt needed to be spoken to.

 

A friend of mine said she likes to keep one foot firmly grounded in wu (wu wei, kinda') and one in the material world.

 

I would think it would be the very exceptional person who could attain even a 50% portion of their life in wu wei. I am a rather materialistic person so I don't claim anything remotely close to 50% of my life in wu wei (the wu state).

 

I still don't feel it necessary to speak to the "I" concept you mentioned above but I don't see a problem regarding how you spoke to it (the concept).

 

So yeah, we do those things that seem to be natural for us to do. Tricky word, that "natural" one. Gotta' be careful with it.