Interview with Fabrizio Pregadio

[tccii]

Our new paper, Interpreting the Ancient Codes: Exploring the Classics of Taoist Alchemy contains an exclusive interview with Fabrizio Pregadio. In it, he discusses his interest in the Taoist texts of Nei Dan as well as his new translation of the Zhou Yi Can Tong Qi. The paper is available as a free download from TCCII. For those who don't want to download it, here is a selection of questions and answers taken from our blog:

 

Q: How did you become interested in Taoism and Taoist alchemy?

A: I was, and I still am, delighted by how Taoism represents the relation between the absolute principle (the Dao) and its manifestation in the world in which we live, and by how clearly it formulates several ways to realize the "return to the Dao." The essential features of these teachings are found in the Dao De Jing and are elaborated on (with some differences in emphasis) in the Zhuang Zi. Taoist Internal Alchemy (Nei Dan) is the main tradition that applies those teachings to the human being and offers a way to comprehend and realize them at the individual level.

Q: What benefit can internal alchemy practitioners derive from studying the classic texts?

A: What you call "classical texts" are signposts in the history of a tradition. By studying those texts, one can study the history of a tradition and how it has been transmitted and adapted to different circumstances.

Texts, moreover, are often the only sources we have to reconstruct the history of a tradition, and this is especially important with regard to Nei Dan. We often think of Nei Dan as a "school" of Taoism, but this is by no means correct. Nei Dan is best described as a tradition with Taoism, with its own branches, schools (or rather, lineages), and individual representatives. There are often major differences among the different Nei Dan lineages. Studying texts is virtually the only way to identify those differences.

There's one more important thing. I can hardly imagine a Chinese — or Indian, Japanese, Tibetan, Persian, etc. — adept of a tradition who does not know, study, and often memorize the main texts of his or her tradition. Knowledge of the written records of a tradition should also be important for a Western follower. Without that knowledge, a Western follower could easily end up twisting and distorting the tradition that he or she claims to belong to, according to his or her own particular perspective. Any Eastern tradition teaches exactly the opposite attitude: until one reaches a truly advanced stage, one should follow the tradition "as is," with no attempt to reinterpret it or adapt it to any contingent circumstance. The re-adaptation (or rather, re-codification) of a teaching to different historical or social circumstances is a very important and interesting phenomenon in the history of any traditional teaching.

Q: Who is the intended audience of your translation of the Can Tong Qi?

A: The intended audience is, generally, everyone who is interested for any reason in the doctrines of the Way of the Golden Elixir, as they are presented by the main textual source of this tradition.

Q: You mention in your translation of the Can Tong Qi that you began your work on it back in 1990. Why is this text so interesting to you?

A: Why is the Can Tong Qi so interesting to me? Well, first of all because, in 1990, after I finished my dissertation on Wai Dan, I told myself, "I'd like to work on the main text in Taoist alchemy" and less than one second later I thought, "This means I should translate the Can Tong Qi." Second, because this text is crucial to understand Taoist alchemy in virtually all of its aspects. One important point here is that the Can Tong Qi talks almost exclusively of doctrine, but we (in the 21st century) should not think that the "doctrine" of a traditional teaching is equivalent to a "theory" in the modern sense of the term. A theory is something that requires proof, and is subject to change in the course of time. A doctrine is something from which a whole tradition develops, and from which the practices are devised. The concepts of "theory" and "proof" are entirely alien to traditional thought; you have, instead, a doctrine that requires personal comprehension and verification. This is why the Can Tong Qi is so important: it has provided the basic doctrine for virtually the entirely history of Chinese alchemy, in all of its forms, with the only exception of the Wai Dan texts written before it was composed, and of some later Wai Dan texts that are not related to it.

Download the full interview now.

Edited January 5, 2012 by tccii

[Taomeow]

Thank you very much! Look forward to reading it.

[konchog uma]

many thanks!

[tccii]

Thank you very much! Look forward to reading it.

 

 

many thanks!

 

 

 

You are quite welcome!

[konchog uma]

I ordered my copy of Fabrizio's translation of the CanTongQi last night, can't wait for it to arrive! Thank you for bringing it to our attention. Thanks and Blessings!

[tccii]

I ordered my copy of Fabrizio's translation of the CanTongQi last night, can't wait for it to arrive! Thank you for bringing it to our attention. Thanks and Blessings!

 

You are welcome!

 

I am glad to hear you picked up a copy of his excellent book and hope you enjoy reading it!

[joeblast]

After checking some of this out I think I'll be picking this up also...thanks!!

[Mark Saltveit]

I'm curious -- did you ask Fabrizio if he is a practicing Daoist? And if so, any details?

 

Mark

[joeblast]

Already found a few gems in here oooh! puzzle pieces!!!

 

also picked up jade writing (huang ting jing) translation by archangelis, lanying...this one will take a bit longer...

Edited February 19, 2012 by joeblast

[tccii]

I'm curious -- did you ask Fabrizio if he is a practicing Daoist? And if so, any details?

 

Mark

 

Hi Mark,

 

Thank you for the comment. Yes, we did discuss this point "off the record." We agreed to leave it "off the record" in order to avoid introducing unnecessary bias into the reader's mind based upon this information.

 

In my opinion, which I mention in the paper, one of the great strengths of Fabrizio's work is that he translates faithfully and with great care while generally avoiding sectarian viewpoints. This provides the reader with the key tools to understand the work in its historical context and also at the level of "Dao." With this information it is rather easy (well I should say easier, because it is not easy!) for a practitioner to relate it to his or her particular lineage. I give a brief example in the paper of how one might read a single passage from the viewpoint of a few traditions. Even that example is far from exhaustive. As you can imagine, interpreting the entire work from the viewpoint of even one lineage would result in a book at least as long as the present volume.

Edited February 19, 2012 by tccii

[tccii]

Already found a few gems in here oooh! puzzle pieces!!!

 

 

Hi Joeblast,

 

It's great to hear your found something of interest. Would you care to share any of those with us? It is always interesting to find out what resonates with people!

Edited February 19, 2012 by tccii

[joeblast]

the mentionings of the 8 extraordinary...the notion of the yin heel vessel being some sort of fulcrum utilized by ren & du...

 

 

although, I am curious of the origin of the note on pg 31, note 38;

"turtle" equivalence to breathing through the heels. clearing the ren. I sort of equate that to the elimination of turbulence in breath where more subtleties can be perceived. I was just curious if there was a more solid connection perhaps or if it is inference.

Edited February 21, 2012 by joeblast

[tccii]

the mentionings of the 8 extraordinary...the notion of the yin heel vessel being some sort of fulcrum utilized by ren & du...

 

 

although, I am curious of the origin of the note on pg 31, note 38;

"turtle" equivalence to breathing through the heels. clearing the ren. I sort of equate that to the elimination of turbulence in breath where more subtleties can be perceived. I was just curious if there was a more solid connection perhaps or if it is inference.

 

Hi Joeblast,

 

Thank you for sharing. Are you talking about the Can Tong Qi or Wang Mu's Foundations of Internal Alchemy? Your reference sounds like Foundations, but your citation matches neither of the books. If I had to guess you are referring to pages 27-34 of Foundations, specifically note 38 on page 30. Is that correct? If so then I agree that is one of the more interesting and useful passages for Nei Dan practitioners.

 

Fabrizio is in the best position to address the origins of the footnotes since he is the translator.

[joeblast]

Yes, Foundations

[xuanying]

although, I am curious of the origin of the note on pg 31, note 38;

"turtle" equivalence to breathing through the heels. clearing the ren. I sort of equate that to the elimination of turbulence in breath where more subtleties can be perceived. I was just curious if there was a more solid connection perhaps or if it is inference.

 

As far as I know, "breathing like a turtle" denotes a quality of breathing rather than a particular practice. It is equivalent to the "breathing of the spirit" (shenxi 神息) and is said to occur in the "crane's womb" (hetai 鶴胎). It is a very deep and thorough type of breathing, and in this sense is equivalent to "breathing through the heels".

 

There is a short entry entitled "Breathing Like a Turtle in the Crane's Womb" in Liu Yiming's Wudao lu (translated by Cleary as Awakening to the Dao, which I don't have with me right now). Essentially, he says that this expression means the harmonization of breath and spirit.

 

This expression seems to have been used first by Ma Danyang. Later, it was also used by Chen Zhixu, who adds: "Breathing like a turtle, breathing through the heels, and breathing of the spirit have different names, but function in the same way" (Jindan dayao).

 

Anyway, you should expect differences of terminology among different authors/masters/traditions of Neidan.

 

FP

[tccii]

We found a video interview of one of our Taoist priest friends talking about Turtle Breathing from our recent trip to China. His explanation is in response to a question about the 4th movement of the Eight Brocades. (Note that if you understand the principle of the breathing as described in the classical texts then you can add it to many practices. For example, there is a specific practice called Turtle Breathing in the southern school (Nan Pai) which includes a Dao Yin.)

 

 

In the video, Master Wang also discusses the Wudang origin legend of the Yin Yang symbol. My colleague is the interpreter.

 

http://www.youtube.c...=1&feature=plcp

 

 

Edit: I couldn't figure out how to embed the video, so if someone can point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.

Edited March 3, 2012 by tccii

[joeblast]

/\

[fatguyslim]

As far as I know, "breathing like a turtle" denotes a quality of breathing rather than a particular practice. It is equivalent to the "breathing of the spirit" (shenxi 神息) and is said to occur in the "crane's womb" (hetai 鶴胎). It is a very deep and thorough type of breathing, and in this sense is equivalent to "breathing through the heels".

 

There is a short entry entitled "Breathing Like a Turtle in the Crane's Womb" in Liu Yiming's Wudao lu (translated by Cleary as Awakening to the Dao, which I don't have with me right now). Essentially, he says that this expression means the harmonization of breath and spirit.

 

This expression seems to have been used first by Ma Danyang. Later, it was also used by Chen Zhixu, who adds: "Breathing like a turtle, breathing through the heels, and breathing of the spirit have different names, but function in the same way" (Jindan dayao).

 

Anyway, you should expect differences of terminology among different authors/masters/traditions of Neidan.

 

FP

 

Hey Fabrizio, I h am an avid reader of Liu Yiming's books and in the translations presented by Cleary, I have never read Liu talk about any practises as such. He rather critisises them all. For example I am quoting all the lines from "Awakening to the Tao" with the word breath in it.... Please let me know which one is it that you are talking about

 

1.

Grafting Peaches and

Grafting Plums

 

When a peach tree is old , graft on a young branch and it will again bear peaches. When a plum tree is old , graft on a young branch and it will again bear plums. This is because even when a tree is old it still has energy in its roots.

 

What I realize as I observe this is the Tao of grafting when people grow old . People age because they indulge in emotions and passions-a hundred worries affect their minds, myriad affairs weary their bodies. Expending their vitality, exhausting their spirit, they take the fal se to be real and take

misery for happiness.

 

Their living potential is cut away to the point where it nearly perishes entirel y, their nature is disturbed and their life is shaken . Because the root is unstable, they grow old and die. This cannot be attributed to fa te, fo r they bring it on themselves.

 

If people know enough to regret their errors and change, cut off emotional entanglements , get rid of addictions to intoxicants , sensuality , and possessions, look upon wealth and status as like ephemeral clouds, regard power and profit as like band its and enemies, then everything wil l be empty for them, and they will not be attached to anything.

 

Concentrating the energy like a baby, being abstemious, storing the vital ity and nurturing the spirit, getting rid of illusion and returning to reality , fostering the growth of the root at all times, walking every step on the right path, increasing true thought and diminishing fal se thought, truly sincere within and without, integrated with the design of nature, they can thereby be rejuvenated.

 

This is like the way of grafting a young branch onto an

old tree. An ancient adept said, "Even at the age of seventy or eighty, as long as you still have one breath left in you, restoration is possible." This is true.

 

2.

Bellows

 

A bellows has holes on either side, and at the opening of each hole is a flap. Inside is empty, while the frame is straight. The emptiness inside is the essence, the straightness of the frame is the function. The two holes are the passages of exit and entry; the two flaps are the mechanism of opening and closing . As the frame is worked back and forth, taking in and pushing out, it empties without exhaustion, moves to produce

wind, opening and closing naturally.

 

What I realize as I observe this is the Tao of the essence and function of cultivating real ity . I f people can be essentially empty within and he functionally straightforward in mind, without bias, without greed, letting the celestial design flow through them , then firmness and flexibility will match each other, action and stillness will combine appropriately , indirectness and directness will attain balance, and they can be

passive or active in accordance with the situation.

 

Then people can share the same mechanism of energy as the sky, share the creativity of heaven and earth. This is like a bellows, inwardly empty with a straight frame, coming and going, breathing in and out naturally. As the working of energy does not cease, people can live long.

 

3.

Artificial Exercises

 

The Tao is natural. All forced manipulations and concoctions are in vain. Some people guard their minds and settle their ideas and thoughts, some people hold their breath and keep it in the abdomen, some people perform psychosomatic energy-circulation exercises. When these people come to the end of their lives and find everything they did was useless, they will resent the gods, also uselessly.

 

Please let me know where did you read about Liu Yiming talking about any physical practise because so far and as it even says the third paragraph, I don't see him mentioning it anywhere. Do let us know. Cheers

[Master Logray]

I happen to have finished reading the translation of Zhou Yi Can Tong Qi 1 or 2 months ago. That is a Chinese translation, yes, Chinese translation of the ancient book, compiled 30 years ago by a master in Taiwan. The original ancient text was in short sentences of fixed 4 or 5 words in a lot of symbolism and hidden meaning. It is around 6000 words only. As other classical Chinese, it is highly condensed and subjected to interpretations.

 

This "translation" is written/compiled by traditional Chinese (also quite concise comparing with modern Chinese), becomes 800,000 words of 3 volumes. I have yet to grasp many of the points in it. It is definitely a very comprehensive and deep writing in the internal training of Taoist. No doubt this book is regarded as the ancestor of all the Nei Dan books. However I would caution that readers must read it with care as it is hard to understand and easily be misled, especially in regards to the exercises and phenomenons in the training.

 

The link has sent me the newsletter of TCCII but not the actual book, looking forward to see what it is.

[tccii]

The link has sent me the newsletter of TCCII but not the actual book, looking forward to see what it is.

 

That is because the link is to a free download of our whitepaper "Interpreting the Ancient Codes." It is short collection consisting of an interview, review and essay related to the Can Tong Qi and the importance of a sound translation.

 

Fabrizio Pregadio's translation of the Can Tong Qi is cited within the paper. If you prefer not to download the paper you can find the book listed on his website.

 

If you are interested in serious academic research on the subject of the Can Tong Qi, then you might want to also consider getting the recently published Volume 2, which includes a comprehensive bibliographical study of the ancient text. The work that went into it is simply incredible.

Edited April 18, 2012 by tccii

[tccii]

Hi FGS,

 

In our interview with him, Fabrizio mentioned he was working on translating some of Liu's material. Let's encourage him to publish it soon. Cleary was one of the first people to make available in translation many important works, but he (to use a Chinese saying) "eats a lot of the meaning." I am really looking forward to Fabrizio's treatment of the material.

Edited April 18, 2012 by tccii

[Walker]

That is a Chinese translation, yes, Chinese translation of the ancient book, compiled 30 years ago by a master in Taiwan.

 

Sounds interesting. May I ask who wrote this text?

[Master Logray]

Sounds interesting. May I ask who wrote this text?

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nan_Huai-Chin

[Walker]

Ah, yep, thought you might be talking about that one.

[xuanying]