About the nature of non existence.

[Taozi]

Can somebody tell me what exactlly the "WU XING SHUI YUAN" mean.Thanks.

 

无性随缘 "WU XING SHUI YUAN"

 

I am no sure the 无性 "WU XING " mean "the nature of non existence".

[xabir2005]

Can somebody tell me what exactlly the "WU XING SHUI YUAN" mean.Thanks.

 

无性随缘 "WU XING SHUI YUAN"

 

I am no sure the 无性 "WU XING " mean "the nature of non existence".

无性 means no inherent nature, 随缘 means manifest according to conditions.

 

Nagarjuna says: “众因缘生法我说即是无. 亦为是假名亦是中道义“

 

Shunyata (Emptiness) means whatever appears are empty of independent or inherent existence, be it a sound, a form, or any other phenomena. This is because it is the 'interconnectedness' that give rise to the sound or experience (The person, the stick, the bell, hitting, air, ears, etc, i.e. the conditions).

 

Thus, whatever arises interdependently is vividly clear and luminous, but empty of any *independent* or *inherent* existence. This is not the same as nothing, non-existence or nihilism.

 

While all appearances are vivid and luminous, they are nonetheless empty of any independent existence, yet while empty, they are appearing vividly. Form is Emptiness, Emptiness is Form.

 

So we say, 一切有为法皆如梦幻泡影，如露亦如电，应作如是观

 

Nagarjuna:

 

Whatever is dependently co-arisen,

That is explained to be emptiness.

That, being a dependent designation,

Is itself the middle way. (Treatise, 24.18)

 

Something that is not dependently arisen,

Such a thing does not exist.

Therefore a nonempty thing

Does not exist. (Treatise, 24.19)

Edited January 8, 2012 by xabir2005

[Marblehead]

Hey Xabir!

 

I think you did a really good job with that explanation.

[Taozi]

I couldn't find the "wu xing shui yuan" in ancient chinese buddhist classic,So I thought somebody explained it with Tao's concept.

 

In my understanding,The "zhi" means "intellgence",It is a process;The "hui" means "wisdom",It is a result.They are not the same thing.

 

Anyway,Thank you Xabir!

[Vmarco]

[Vmarco]

[Marblehead]

Can the Unconditional ever be understood through Conditions?

 

No, ...

 

but it can be experienced.

[Aaron]

Unfortunately, except for the Mountain Doctrine, most intrepret that the nonexistent nature of things as "nothing exists." Things do not exist,...music does not exist outside the nature of things. The Mountain Doctrine implies that Wu exists,...but that existence is not dependent on things, and contains no such condition.

 

The Mountain Doctrine says, "An emptiness of all ( thams cad kyi stong pa) does not occur because an emptiness of the noumenon does not occur. Empty of all and empty of all phenomena are ex-tremely different because the mode of subsistence is empty of phenomena but is not empty of the noumenon. The noumenon is emptiness in that the noumenon is other-emptiness, since it is empty of conventionalities. However, an emptiness of the noumenon does not occur because the noumenon is the final nature of all phenomena. In other words, the noumenon "the basis of emptiness, the ultimate other-emptiness"

 

Noumena is not empty as form is empty. Noumena is empty of phenomena, whereas phenomena is just empty. Noumena can be viewed as a synonym of Wu.

 

Most Buddhists make terrible mistakes in their conceptual understandings,...for example, HH Dalai Lama said, "As the continuum of the mind has no beginning, ignorance does not have one either. If it did, we would have to discover from within a state of consciousness that predates ignorance and is different from it in an enlightened mind, therefore -- a cause resulting in ignorance. This makes no sense."

 

He appears to be assuming that "mind" is solely cerebral-centric (arising from the skandhas),...that is, that there is no consciousness beyond the Five Aggregates. And yet, the Absolute Bodhicitta lojong says that one should find the consciousness of before birth,...their Unborn Awareness.

 

Obviously, HH Dalai Lama has not come upon "Unborn Awareness" in his studies, nor any direct experience with such consciousness. Is HH Dalai Lama correct? Is even the Buddha Mind ignorant? Perhaps, according his Mahayana dogma. But is that true,...is there no difference between the ignorant mind of the Six Senses, and the Heart-Mind beyond the Skandhas?

 

If a Buddha has full faculties of understanding the nature of dependent origination, why would they cease to exist in it, if there was nothing beyond it? Does a Tathagata teach Nihlism? Keep in mind that for me, these are sarcastic questions.

 

V

 

I have to give it to you, even I don't have the balls to question the HH Dhali Lahma's understanding of Buddhism. (I meant that as a joke, of course I do.)

 

As far as, "is there no difference between the ignorant mind of the Six Senses, and the Heart-Mind beyond the Skandhas?" Quick and dirty answer is, no there isn't.

 

Aaron

Edited January 9, 2012 by Twinner

[Aaron]

[Vmarco]

As far as, "is there no difference between the ignorant mind of the Six Senses, and the Heart-Mind beyond the Skandhas?" Quick and dirty answer is, no there isn't.

 

Aaron

 

 

If there isn't,...(that is, no difference between the skandhas and the Heart-mind) why did Buddha, over and over, stress the difference. Because the Heart-Mind cannot be understood through the 6 Senses.

[Taozi]

 

Certainly, Wu can never be ubderstood though the conditions of knowledge,...even exalted knowledge, like wisdom.

 

 

 

 

"无 Wu" got its meaning from "有 You"

 

Something in there,Its gone,So nothing in there ,This is the meaning of Wu.

 

"空Kong" means "Couldn't feel the existence of thing"

 

Nothing or something in there,But cann't (see,hear,touch,taste ,smell,sense) anything in there,This is the meaning of kong.

kong include non-existence.

 

Without Senses,Stone cannt talk about Wu and Kong.

[Aaron]

If there isn't,...(that is, no difference between the skandhas and the Heart-mind) why did Buddha, over and over, stress the difference. Because the Heart-Mind cannot be understood through the 6 Senses.

 

The Buddha made those distinctions because people could not fathom the lack of distinction. There was something that could be told and then there is only what is. I speak of what is, not what can be described. When one reaches a state of heart-mind, and of course you obviously have, they understand that skandhas, the senses, thought, mind, self, ego, is all transient (notice I said transient and not illusory), the the only thing that exists forever is the middle place, non-duality, whatever you want to call it. I like to call it the stillness, because from the stillness comes movement that creates all things. That which is still exists forever, those things created from stillness, which are moving, are transient and will eventually cease to be.

 

So skandas and the heart-mind are the same, because without skandhas we cannot experience heart-mind. Heart-mind only allows us to experience a portion of the actuality of the universe, it doesn't grant us immortality or freedom from our transient state of existence. It's sort of like getting a peek at what we will become.

 

 

Aaron

Edited January 9, 2012 by Twinner

[Vmarco]

 

skandhas, the senses, thought, mind, self, ego, is all transient (notice I said transient and not illusory), the the only thing that exists forever is the middle place, non-duality, whatever you want to call it. I like to call it the stillness, because from the stillness comes movement that creates all things. That which is still exists forever, those things created from stillness, which are moving, are transient and will eventually cease to be.

 

So skandas and the heart-mind are the same, because without skandhas we cannot experience heart-mind. Heart-mind only allows us to experience a portion of the actuality of the universe, it doesn't grant us immortality or freedom from our transient state of existence. It's sort of like getting a peek at what we will become.

 

 

Aaron

 

Whoa!! First,...everything that is transient is illusory. Second,...Heart-Mind, can, and can only, be experienced beyond the skandhas. Heart-Mind is directly conscious of the Present,...the skandhas and the six senses are only, and can only, be aware of the past. A Tathagata is consciousness of the Present.

 

The Heart Mind,...which is a level above Heart Center, cannot be penetrated by that of the skandhas.

 

You're not grasping what is being pointed to,...for example:

 

Sogyal Rinpoche tells us that the practice of Tonglen depends upon our ability to awaken within ourselves the reality of compassion. Just as we cannot perform the Unity Breath until we can feel Love, we cannot practice Tonglen until we truly can feel compassion.

 

Ok,...so all these folks advocating Tonglen practice to realize compassion, are putting the cart before the horse, like the human-centric put "i think" before the I am. Tonglen practice can only be understood after compassion.

 

So,...how does one acquire or uncover compassion? Buddhism is quite specific.

 

"The whole of the Bodhicharyvatara is deared toward prajna, the direct realization of emptiness, absolute bodhichitta, without which the true practice of compassion is impossible." The Way of the Bodhisattva

"Buddhist teachings on compassion are grounded in the direct realization of Emptiness; without which, compassion is impossible." Robert Thurman

 

In other words,...without the direct understanding of Dependent Origination, any attempt to act compassionately is useless,...and only reflects egoic concepts, all of which are founded on sustaining ego.

 

 

"A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real"...Buddha

Edited January 9, 2012 by Vmarco

[C T]

 

Ok,...so all these folks advocating Tonglen practice to realize compassion, are putting the cart before the horse, like the human-centric put "i think" before the I am. Tonglen practice can only be understood after compassion.

 

 

Tonglen as a practice is not for realizing compassion. Compassion is not some state which can be 'realized', no matter what your argument. If anything, its a gross result of deepening practice in mindful living. No one can say, "Look! I have mastered Compassion"... that sounds really silly? Whats not silly is to regard all things as equal (as an ideal) to work towards mastering one's activities expressed thru one's body, words and thoughts. When this is observed to be stably arising in one's stream of being, then all of one's activities will spontaneously manifest compassionate undertones.

 

Specifically, Tonglen is for dissolving attachments, fear, anger, jealousy and clinging to a sense of self before others. Its also an exercise primarily meant to develop equanimity, an essential state which has to be stable prior to heart-mind bearing fruit. This fruition, expressed thru one's thoughts, words and deeds, accumulatively gives rise to bodhicitta, which is roughly translated as 'heart of enlightened mind, or, alternatively, the heart which desires to fulfill the longing of happiness in others'.

Edited January 9, 2012 by C T

[Marblehead]

"无 Wu" got its meaning from "有 You"

 

Something in there,Its gone,So nothing in there ,This is the meaning of Wu.

 

"空Kong" means "Couldn't feel the existence of thing"

 

Nothing or something in there,But cann't (see,hear,touch,taste ,smell,sense) anything in there,This is the meaning of kong.

kong include non-existence.

 

Without Senses,Stone cannt talk about Wu and Kong.

 

Interesting thoughts in this post of yours. My brain isn't working well enough for me to speak to it though.

[Vmarco]

Tonglen as a practice is not for realizing compassion. Compassion is not some state which can be 'realized', no matter what your argument. If anything, its a gross result of deepening practice in mindful living. No one can say, "Look! I have mastered Compassion"... that sounds really silly? Whats not silly is to regard all things as equal (as an ideal) to work towards mastering one's activities expressed thru one's body, words and thoughts. When this is observed to be stably arising in one's stream of being, then all of one's activities will spontaneously manifest compassionate undertones.

 

Specifically, Tonglen is for dissolving attachments, fear, anger, jealousy and clinging to a sense of self before others.

 

 

Sorry if Post #13 was somehow not clear enough,...it did not say Tonglen is a practice for realizing compassion, but that I agree with Sogyal Rinpoche, in that Tonglen practice depends on compassion already uncovered.

 

As Sogyal Rinpoche said, "Once we have awakened our compassion, we are now ready for the practice of Tonglen." Although he added, that compassion is much more difficult to achieve than we might think.

 

That is awesome that you "have mastered Compassion." I must assume you mean in the Buddhist context, as mentioned in Post #13,...that is, compassion is inherent to our Unborn Awareness.

 

I dissagree that Tonglen is "specifically" for dissolving attachments, fear, anger, jealousy and clinging to a sense of self before others. To me, Tonglen is as a refuge or ground for uncovering Absolute Bodhicitta,...although many become fixated on the preliminaries. For those who teach their interpretation of Tonglen, like Pema Chodron, their pseudo-tonglen practice does not include Absolute Bodhicitta as a real potential, but only the cultivation of a passive ego to sustain and perpetuate her Tonglen workshops.

 

The Heart Awareness which desires to fulfill the longing of happiness in others'(subconscious), is simply a consequence of understanding Dependent Origination.,...or the nature of emptiness, which encapcilates the same thing.

 

Thus I agree, that fruition of the lesser, mundane and relative Atisha points, accumulatively gives rise to absolute bodhicitta, for those unattached to the lesser, mundane and relative Atisha points. However, those attached to the lesser, mundane and relative Atisha points as aspects of real compassion, have failed to understand Tonglen, and do not understand the compassion of a Bodhisattva.

 

The compassion of a Bodhisattva is impossible without directly experiencing that Form is Empty, and Empty is Form. Because of humanity's access to a physical understanding of the nature of light, over the last 60 years, there has been an increasing prepatory vibration leading to an awareness able to recognize why Form is Empty, and Empty is Form. Understanding the nature of Divided Light, is awareness of Dependent Origination.

 

V

[C T]

Sorry if Post #13 was somehow not clear enough,...it did not say Tonglen is a practice for realizing compassion, but that I agree with Sogyal Rinpoche, in that Tonglen practice depends on compassion already uncovered.

 

As Sogyal Rinpoche said, "Once we have awakened our compassion, we are now ready for the practice of Tonglen." Although he added, that compassion is much more difficult to achieve than we might think.

 

That is awesome that you "have mastered Compassion." I must assume you mean in the Buddhist context, as mentioned in Post #13,...that is, compassion is inherent to our Unborn Awareness.

 

I dissagree that Tonglen is "specifically" for dissolving attachments, fear, anger, jealousy and clinging to a sense of self before others. To me, Tonglen is as a refuge or ground for uncovering Absolute Bodhicitta,...although many become fixated on the preliminaries. For those who teach their interpretation of Tonglen, like Pema Chodron, their pseudo-tonglen practice does not include Absolute Bodhicitta as a real potential, but only the cultivation of a passive ego to sustain and perpetuate her Tonglen workshops.

 

The Heart Awareness which desires to fulfill the longing of happiness in others'(subconscious), is simply a consequence of understanding Dependent Origination.,...or the nature of emptiness, which encapcilates the same thing.

 

Thus I agree, that fruition of the lesser, mundane and relative Atisha points, accumulatively gives rise to absolute bodhicitta, for those unattached to the lesser, mundane and relative Atisha points. However, those attached to the lesser, mundane and relative Atisha points as aspects of real compassion, have failed to understand Tonglen, and do not understand the compassion of a Bodhisattva.

 

The compassion of a Bodhisattva is impossible without directly experiencing that Form is Empty, and Empty is Form. Because of humanity's access to a physical understanding of the nature of light, over the last 60 years, there has been an increasing prepatory vibration leading to an awareness able to recognize why Form is Empty, and Empty is Form. Understanding the nature of Divided Light, is awareness of Dependent Origination.

 

V

Please dont confuse yourself - i did not say i have mastered compassion - what i wrote is a direct refutation of your belief that it has to be realized before one can effectively practice Tonglen.

 

Compassion is the natural outflow of one who sustains mindful attention of the Noble eight-fold path. There is no need to disguise this fundamental truth to make Buddhism appear more profound by spinning statements which states one has to realize 'form/emptiness' before compassion can be established - this is not the case. Also, its not a refuge.

 

I really hope you would discontinue trying to market your own interpretation and brand of Buddhism. You seem to be constantly encouraging others to operate from the absolute level, when in truth, Buddhism and the Noble 8-fold path is meant to guide practitioners towards seeing the inseparability of the relative and absolute - that one should remain always grounded in the realities of everyday living and discover the way towards finding peace and happiness in this reality, instead of loosing oneself in the clouds trying to create a separate, more perfect one - the Buddha never taught this.

 

The absolute is already contained in the relative. By living according to the fundamental truth as laid out clearly and simply in the Noble 8-fold path, gradually Right View will ensure that both relative and absolute can co-emerge in harmony. This puts an end to conflict in speech, in thoughts and in body - this is the truth of the cessation of afflictive conditions.

 

The practice of living as best as one can guided by the Noble 8-fold path is Tonglen. And how does one realize the result of living accordingly? One of the more noticeable traits is that one begins to think, feel and act in a more compassionate manner, gradually leaning more and more towards altruistic intentions, until finally it can be said that one has attained to the fruition of absoute bodhicitta, where others can also begin to taste the fruits of one's endeavor. If others cant testify to enjoying the fruits, then bodhicitta becomes meaningless and empty - mere words which does not aid practice at all, and also perpetuates ignorance and delusion.

 

 

(edit) The Noble Eightfold Path here: http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/eightfoldpath.html

Edited January 10, 2012 by C T

[Aaron]

Whoa!! First,...everything that is transient is illusory. Second,...Heart-Mind, can, and can only, be experienced beyond the skandhas. Heart-Mind is directly conscious of the Present,...the skandhas and the six senses are only, and can only, be aware of the past. A Tathagata is consciousness of the Present.

 

The Heart Mind,...which is a level above Heart Center, cannot be penetrated by that of the skandhas.

 

You're not grasping what is being pointed to,...for example:

 

Sogyal Rinpoche tells us that the practice of Tonglen depends upon our ability to awaken within ourselves the reality of compassion. Just as we cannot perform the Unity Breath until we can feel Love, we cannot practice Tonglen until we truly can feel compassion.

 

Ok,...so all these folks advocating Tonglen practice to realize compassion, are putting the cart before the horse, like the human-centric put "i think" before the I am. Tonglen practice can only be understood after compassion.

 

So,...how does one acquire or uncover compassion? Buddhism is quite specific.

 

"The whole of the Bodhicharyvatara is deared toward prajna, the direct realization of emptiness, absolute bodhichitta, without which the true practice of compassion is impossible." The Way of the Bodhisattva

"Buddhist teachings on compassion are grounded in the direct realization of Emptiness; without which, compassion is impossible." Robert Thurman

 

In other words,...without the direct understanding of Dependent Origination, any attempt to act compassionately is useless,...and only reflects egoic concepts, all of which are founded on sustaining ego.

 

 

"A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real"...Buddha

 

I'm sorry... I don't know why I argue with you about this, since you already know the answer. Please forgive me... retreating to the corner now.

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

Please dont confuse yourself - i did not say i have mastered compassion - what i wrote is a direct refutation of your belief that it has to be realized before one can effectively practice Tonglen.

 

Compassion is the natural outflow of one who sustains mindful attention of the Noble eight-fold path. There is no need to disguise this fundamental truth to make Buddhism appear more profound by spinning statements which states one has to realize 'form/emptiness' before compassion can be established - this is not the case. Also, its not a refuge.

 

I really hope you would discontinue trying to market your own interpretation and brand of Buddhism. You seem to be constantly encouraging others to operate from the absolute level, when in truth, Buddhism and the Noble 8-fold path is meant to guide practitioners towards seeing the inseparability of the relative and absolute - that one should remain always grounded in the realities of everyday living and discover the way towards finding peace and happiness in this reality, instead of loosing oneself in the clouds trying to create a separate, more perfect one - the Buddha never taught this.

 

The absolute is already contained in the relative. By living according to the fundamental truth as laid out clearly and simply in the Noble 8-fold path, gradually Right View will ensure that both relative and absolute can co-emerge in harmony. This puts an end to conflict in speech, in thoughts and in body - this is the truth of the cessation of afflictive conditions.

 

The practice of living as best as one can guided by the Noble 8-fold path is Tonglen. And how does one realize the result of living accordingly? One of the more noticeable traits is that one begins to think, feel and act in a more compassionate manner, gradually leaning more and more towards altruistic intentions, until finally it can be said that one has attained to the fruition of absoute bodhicitta, where others can also begin to taste the fruits of one's endeavor. If others cant testify to enjoying the fruits, then bodhicitta becomes meaningless and empty - mere words which does not aid practice at all, and also perpetuates ignorance and delusion.

 

 

(edit) The Noble Eightfold Path here: http://www.thebigvie...htfoldpath.html

 

Amen brother... ahem... I mean excellent post.

 

Aaron

[Vmarco]

Please dont confuse yourself - i did not say i have mastered compassion - what i wrote is a direct refutation of your belief that it has to be realized before one can effectively practice Tonglen.

 

Compassion is the natural outflow of one who sustains mindful attention of the Noble eight-fold path. There is no need to disguise this fundamental truth to make Buddhism appear more profound by spinning statements which states one has to realize 'form/emptiness' before compassion can be established - this is not the case. Also, its not a refuge.

 

I really hope you would discontinue trying to market your own interpretation and brand of Buddhism. You seem to be constantly encouraging others to operate from the absolute level, when in truth, Buddhism and the Noble 8-fold path is meant to guide practitioners towards seeing the inseparability of the relative and absolute -

 

The absolute is already contained in the relative.

 

The practice of living as best as one can guided by the Noble 8-fold path is Tonglen. ...One of the more noticeable traits is that one begins to think, feel and act in a more compassionate manner....If others cant testify to enjoying the fruits, then bodhicitta becomes meaningless and empty - mere words which does not aid practice at all, and also perpetuates ignorance and delusion.

 

 

 

You appeared to have confused yourself, as I suspected. I'll repeat the quote from post #13:

Sogyal Rinpoche tells us that the practice of Tonglen depends upon our ability to awaken within ourselves the reality of compassion. Just as we cannot perform the Unity Breath until we can feel Love, we cannot practice Tonglen until we truly can feel compassion.

 

Both I, and HH Dalai Lama, Robert Thurman, Shantideva (as per post #13) would disagree that, as you state, "Compassion is the natural outflow of one who sustains mindful attention of the Noble eight-fold path."

 

Compassion is the natural outflow of one who sustains mindful attention of the Four Noble Truths (that is, Dependent Origination). Buddhism would not consistantly state that without direct realization of Emptiness, compassion is impossible, if it were not the case. The Heart sutra would not imply that the compassion of a Bodhisattva is unrealizable without direct understanding that Form is Empty, and Empty is Form.

 

It's unfortunate that you contrive that I "market your own interpretation and brand of Buddhism." This is a reason why I liberally use quotes. Many, if not most however, appear to approach Buddhism in a very dogmatic way,...and are tethered to exact wording in sutras, translated and written by patriarchs who thought the Earth was flat.

 

Not all Buddhists are attached to the concept of "inseparability of the relative and absolute." For example, the Mountain Doctrine is quite clear on the separability of phenomena and noumena. However for those focused on the First Turning of the Wheel, and even the Second Turning,...this concept of inseparability appears dogmatic.

 

The absolute can be said to be contained in the relative,...but for anyone aware of Dependent Origination, the relative is not contained in the absolute. Of course, a sentient-centric being will not understand this. However, it is fully compatable with all sutras,...as if on a level invisible to those who have not realized why Form is Empty, and Empty is Form,...which is fully cognizable through the understanding of Light.

 

Whereas you think that "The practice of living as best as one can guided by the Noble 8-fold path is Tonglen" others have a different interpretation,...that it is a practice to develop and recognize Appreciation. But of course,...for those focused on the First and/or Second Turnings of the Wheel, Tonglen is practiced in the way you mentioned.

 

It is erronous, and misleading to say that "one begins to think, feel and act in a more compassionate manner." Compassion that arises from thinking, feeling, and acting, is not real compassion. Real Compassion can only arise or be uncovered through understanding Emptiness. If one does not directly understand Emptiness, what they think, feel and act is merely pseudo-compassion.

 

Your rhetoric is obviously very important for beginners to Buddhism. My wish is to not attract them to my posts. I have no desire to teach, nor interact with beginners. Although I respect and appreciate those focused on the First and/or Second Turnings of the Wheel,...my posts pivot from all Four Turnings. For those from strictly Theravada and Mahayana traditions, such dialogue is often upsetting,...and thus it is always my wish that they quickly become aggitated with my posts, and simply move on.

 

Some here e-mail me on the side, where some aspects are gone into more depth. And also keep in mind, I didn't happen upon this TTB forum, but was invited, specifically to share a broader view Buddhism, in the tradition of Sakyamuni himself,..."Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations."

 

V

Edited January 10, 2012 by Vmarco

[Vmarco]

I'm sorry... I don't know why I argue with you about this, since you already know the answer. Please forgive me... retreating to the corner now.

 

Aaron

 

So, you wish to maintain that everything that is transient is not illusory? Hey, my apology for your feeling a need to retreat into a corner. I'm very willing to listen,...please list some of these transient things that are not illusory.

 

V

[C T]

 

Compassion is the natural outflow of one who sustains mindful attention of the Four Noble Truths (that is, Dependent Origination). Buddhism would not consistantly state that without direct realization of Emptiness, compassion is impossible, if it were not the case. The Heart sutra would not imply that the compassion of a Bodhisattva is unrealizable without direct understanding that Form is Empty, and Empty is Form.

 

 

You see, this is because you assume Buddhism has some kind of monopoly on compassion - it does not, hence its incorrect to assert that compassion arises in one who attends to the 4 Noble Truths. There are many good paths besides Buddhism which are compassion-based, but none of these adhere to the concept of the 4 Noble Truths as the principal tenet of their path - however, its evident that all genuine traditions incorporate general principles along the same vein as the Eightfold Path, thus clearly justifying my view as correct and yours as missing the mark.

 

Buddhism, regardless of vehicle, does not consistently state that there has to be a realization of emptiness or else compassion is impossible. Such a statement epitomizes dogmatic inclinations and puritanical views, both of which the Buddha strongly rejects. The realization of emptiness is emphasized only by certain Buddhist yanas - its not a universal requirement for learning how to apply the Eightfold Path into one's daily living, with the ultimate result of the cessation of all mental afflictions. Realizing emptiness is not a prerequisite towards this end.

[xabir2005]

[Vmarco]

You see, this is because you assume Buddhism has some kind of monopoly on compassion - it does not, hence its incorrect to assert that compassion arises in one who attends to the 4 Noble Truths. There are many good paths besides Buddhism which are compassion-based, but none of these adhere to the concept of the 4 Noble Truths as the principal tenet of their path - however, its evident that all genuine traditions incorporate general principles along the same vein as the Eightfold Path, thus clearly justifying my view as correct and yours as missing the mark.

 

Buddhism, regardless of vehicle, does not consistently state that there has to be a realization of emptiness or else compassion is impossible. Such a statement epitomizes dogmatic inclinations and puritanical views, both of which the Buddha strongly rejects. The realization of emptiness is emphasized only by certain Buddhist yanas - its not a universal requirement for learning how to apply the Eightfold Path into one's daily living, with the ultimate result of the cessation of all mental afflictions. Realizing emptiness is not a prerequisite towards this end.

 

For those committed to the First Turning, that is, beginners practicing the preliminaries, learning to apply the 8 Fold Path is certainly admirable. As Meditation is a path to Appreciation, so to is the 8 Fold Path a ground for uncovering the Four Noble Truths. I wholly agree that the realization of Emptiness is not a requirement for practicing the 8 Fold Path,...but the realization of Emptiness is a requirement for the direct understanding of the Four Noble Truths.

 

Perhaps for the majority of Buddhists, a sole focus on the 8 Fold Path is the extent of their cultivation in this lifetime,...or at least what they have been informed as such. As a conseqience of that narrow view, concepts regarding compassion are relative, mundane, patrifocally formed ideals considered acceptable. However, that is not the compassion of a Bodhisattva.

 

Shantideva: "The whole of the Bodhicharyvatara is geared toward prajna, the direct realization of emptiness, absolute bodhichitta, without which the true practice of compassion is impossible."

 

Unlike you proposed, real compassion does not arise from Thinking, Feeling, nor Acting,...it does not arise from the Skandhas. Unfortunately, the practice of the 8 Fold Path has been contrued in such a way that many have been indoctrinated that this relative preparation is the goal,...when it is not,...and thus Sakyamuni has been taken out of context, as if he came to teach prisoners to be more content prisoners,.

 

Sakyamuni's message was one of letting go of prison,...the prison does not exist. He did not, if the sutras are any indication, teach appeasing, coddling, distraction, denial, or attachment to maya. Sakyamuni could not have possibly wanted humanity to trudge along, identifying with their thinking, feelings, and acting as if those characteristics of the skandhas are real, and offer anything true.

 

Your mundane, thought inspired notion of compassion is well accepted in today's society. I agree, as you said, "there are many good paths besides Buddhism which are compassion-based"....what I'm saying is that they are not real compassion from a full spectrum Buddhists point of view. In addition, I fully honor your cerebral constructs of compassion,...but be clear, they are not Buddhist, in the purest sense.

 

Your posts indicate to me that your idea of Buddhism is quite restrictive and narrow,...which is considered quite acceptable in today's inter-faithed, profoundly sick society, seeking to celebrate the personal self. The Buddhism I practice is fundamental. For example, the Heart sutra instructs that to understand the compassion of a Bodhisattva, one must have a direct understanding of what is Form and Empty of Form,....it doesn't say compassion arises from direct thinking, direct feeling, or direct sensing.

 

It is irrefutable that compassion is not, nor can be, what you think,...but it's quite difficult showing people what they "think" is meaningful, may actually be meaningless,...and so I insert quotes as often as possible,...because I have absolutely no interests in "my truth", relative truth, object-ive truth,...any so-called truth that changes, was never true to begin with.

 

During the past 37 years, I've used Absolute Bodhicitta Atisha aphorims daily,...such as "Between meditations, treat everything as an illusion." I do not consider anything that arises from my 6 senses as either true or reliable. I have zero interest in personal truth.

 

"Buddhist teachings on compassion are grounded in the direct realization of Emptiness; without which, compassion is impossible." Robert Thurman

 

"Compassion is not so much feeling sorry for somebody, feeling that you are in a better place and somebody is in a worse place. Compassion is not having any hesitation to reflect your light on things. As light has no hesitation, no inhibition about reflecting on things, it does not discriminate whether to reflect on a pile of shit or on a pile of rock or on a pile of diamonds. It reflects on everything it faces." Chögyam Trungpa

 

"...everbody thinks that compassion is important, and everyone has compassion. True enough, but the Buddha gave uncommon quintessential instructions when he taught the methods for cultivating compassion, and the differences are extraordinarily important." Kenchen Thrangu Rinpoche

"A wise man, recognizing that the world is but an illusion, does not act as if it is real"...Buddha

 

V

[Vmarco]

however I do not accept both shentong (other empty) and rangtong. (Other empty)

 

My view of middle way is free from eternalism (what you are advocating) and nihilism.

 

Due to your current experience of I AM, it is difficult to see. I have been through before so I know, and without Thusness's guidance I would have stuck in that for decades.

 

Nagarjuna's refutation of rang stong [instrinsic emptiness]:

 

If there something subtle not empty,

there would be something subtle to be empty;

as there is nothing not empty,

where is there something to be empty?

 

And his refutation of gzhan stong [extrinsic emptiness]:

 

Since arising, abiding and perishing are not established,

the conditioned is not established;

since the conditioned is never established,

how can the unconditioned be established?

 

 

First,...you are confused or confusing me with "I Am"....a subject you broached in another thread,...from which my response was incorrectly interpreted.

 

As for Nagarjuna,...like "I Am", you are viewing his statements out-of-context. I agree that a condition cannot establish the Unconditional,...just a Divided Light or phenomena doesn't establish Undivided Light or noumena.

 

"Furthermore, real permanence is not a permanent non-thing, which is the mere opposite of impermanence. It is also not the compounded permanence that is a permanence of continuum. It is also not a permanent effective thing, asserted by [non-Buddhist]Forders, that does not occur among objects of knowledge. It is also not a negative permanence that is a mere meaning-generality. It is also not asserted as the likes of a positive self-powered permanence. [Rather] it is devoid of proliferations, the immutable basic element released from the proliferations of impermanent positive effective things and negative permanent non-things. Though it is released from the signs of permanence and released from the proliferations of permanence, it is immutable, and hence is solely-permanent." Taranatha