Aaron Posted January 11, 2012 Hello folks, Something I've been thinking a lot about lately is the idea of applying the characteristics of the sage as it's described in the TAOIST texts, to my own life. I think that Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu went to great lengths to discuss these characteristics, but as an individual I tend to focus more on their thoughts about the mystery, chi, and Tao, rather than the practical advice they gave. My goal is to start a dialogue with others in an effort to understand how others view these characteristics and what they may be. In doing so I intend to put aside cultural and philosophical bias so that I can get down to the meat of the matter. Rather than start this topic with my own thoughts pertaining to these notions, I would rather hear what others have to say about it. Some areas I'd like to discuss in particular are: How does a sage manage to be first by being last? Why is the good man the teacher of bad men? How does one practice the three jewels and exactly how can we define them in the English language according to our own cultural subtext? I'm sure there are other things that might be beneficial to discuss, but I thought this might be a good start. I look forward to your ideas and thoughts, Aaron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted January 11, 2012 How does a sage manage to be first by being last? When you're hungry, you need to eat. When you're full, the opposite of being hungry, you can't eat anymore. With this in mind, when sage allows himself to be last, he has enough space to become first and move forward. If he keeps thinking that he is the best, he can't go on and improve. Emptying your own cup also comes to mind. Often when conversations start around here, people assume everyone else knows what they are talking about and get confused. If you just forget what you know and allow other person to explain, things become clear fast and you look smart by being dumb 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 11, 2012 1. When you're hungry, you need to eat. When you're full, the opposite of being hungry, you can't eat anymore. With this in mind, when sage allows himself to be last, he has enough space to become first and move forward. If he keeps thinking that he is the best, he can't go on and improve. 2. If you just forget what you know and allow other person to explain, things become clear fast and you look smart by being dumb 1. It doesn't matter where the sage is. However, in people's mind, he is always in the front. 2. Exactly, wise statement. I had noticed that was what you had been doing.... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
realfastcat Posted January 11, 2012 "Why is the good man the teacher of bad men?" What is the distinction between a Good man and a Bad man? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) "Why is the good man the teacher of bad men?" What is the distinction between a Good man and a Bad man? Excellent point... what is the distinction between "eh" and "oh"? Really, though, my question is why does Lao Tzu say that? I'm really interested in the answer, rather than the riddles. Aaron Edited January 11, 2012 by Twinner Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted January 12, 2012 I've been reading the characteristics as referring to the sage himself. 'first' would be my reactivity. 'last' would be thinking about my actions. 'Good' would be what I strive for. 'Bad' away from. The details aren't mentioned as good and bad are relative to each other in any given situation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zanshin Posted January 12, 2012 It's paradoxical. Striving to be good and to be first is subjective and inherently frustrating, if you give that up it's all good and you're a winner. I like the words compassion and simplicity. Not so much humility or modesty as to me, these suggest a backing down or conformity as trying to be first requires a sort of wearing a mask to impress others. I like the word integrity as I feel the third treasure is about being who you regardless of scorn or praise from others. My personal practice paradox is- I am fussy and love comfortable even decadent things and am a sucker for exquisite workmanship, it's my nature, not too much about showing off, but then I feel guilty about it. No one knows I am wearing 20$ alpaca socks (umm.. except you guys since I just told you, but more for illustration, it is not something I go about telling people, I just really enjoy these super warm soft socks). So does simplicity require ascetism, should I feel guilty about these things and give them up? Can a sage sleep on Egyptian cotton sheets? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
realfastcat Posted January 12, 2012 (edited) I think that unraveling the Riddles and Paradox' is a big part of understanding Lao Tzu. I do like -K- and zanshin's responses. I do not pretend to have anything close to a complete Understanding of Lao Tzu. But a distinction between a Good man and a Bad man is going to be very difficult for me. If he had said a "Superior man" , that would have made more sense for me. Edited January 12, 2012 by realfastcat Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chang Posted January 12, 2012 My personal practice paradox is- I am fussy and love comfortable even decadent things and am a sucker for exquisite workmanship, it's my nature, not too much about showing off, but then I feel guilty about it. No one knows I am wearing 20$ alpaca socks (umm.. except you guys since I just told you, but more for illustration, it is not something I go about telling people, I just really enjoy these super warm soft socks). So does simplicity require ascetism, should I feel guilty about these things and give them up? Can a sage sleep on Egyptian cotton sheets? Zanshin raises a very important point here. If all of the Tao Bums were asked to form a mental picture of the "typical" Taoist sage, how many of us would picture an ascetic dwelling in the wilderness and subsisting on roots and herbs? Can the sage sleep on Egyptian cotton sheets? Can we be sagelike as well as warm and comfortable? And why should we feel any guilt if we are the latter? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 14, 2012 This may be one of the characteristics of a sage which was suggested by Zhuang Tze. http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/21954-meditation-is-not-a-good-way-for-practising/page__st__400#entry316897 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted January 14, 2012 Hello folks, Something I've been thinking a lot about lately is the idea of applying the characteristics of the sage as it's described in the TAOIST texts, to my own life. I think that Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu went to great lengths to discuss these characteristics, but as an individual I tend to focus more on their thoughts about the mystery, chi, and Tao, rather than the practical advice they gave. My goal is to start a dialogue with others in an effort to understand how others view these characteristics and what they may be. In doing so I intend to put aside cultural and philosophical bias so that I can get down to the meat of the matter. Rather than start this topic with my own thoughts pertaining to these notions, I would rather hear what others have to say about it. Some areas I'd like to discuss in particular are: How does a sage manage to be first by being last? Why is the good man the teacher of bad men? How does one practice the three jewels and exactly how can we define them in the English language according to our own cultural subtext? I'm sure there are other things that might be beneficial to discuss, but I thought this might be a good start. I look forward to your ideas and thoughts, Aaron I guess a sage is in harmony with themselves which makes them in harmony with the world, yet finds this so simple that they barely even notice it themselves. On top of this, I think there's something to the virtuous asking heaven for a break and often getting it, regardless of any training. Just being in harmony with everything is their virtue, and given that this requires less ego and so forth, the other virtues are included as part of this package deal. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wayfarer Posted January 14, 2012 Hi, Here is a link to an excellent article about what is a modern sage - I think the person who wrote it must have a deep understanding too: Link to Taoist Sage description Some other quick points: The 'Sage' is referred to as a person who has 'entered the Tao' or 'Awakened' rather than simply a person who follows the practice of the Tao and therefore sets himself/herself apart from others in the sense of wisdom and understanding. Such a person is dispassionate due to the knowing that all things are one. Such a person is compassionate as what arises from within is a natural response to what occurs before him or her - such an action is only of the moment and does not linger. Being 'Good' or 'Bad' is not relevant to the Sage however I think that what is being referred to in the Tao Te Ching as a good or bad man in essence means 'awakened' or 'ignorant'. The I-Ching is the same and often mentions the Great Man (Sage). Ultimately, if one were to replicate the actions and 'being' of a Sage one would be quiet and talk infrequently, one would not engage in arguments that cannot be proven one way or the other, one would be settled irrespective of what goes on around him or her, one would become quite withdrawn from the scurrying desires and company of man. One would not be interested in the world or in the views of others. To the outside world this person would seem aloof, disinterested, untroubled, uncaring, lacking motivation, not bothered - imagine being married to that person! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Lin Posted January 14, 2012 (edited) Hi, Here is a link to an excellent article about what is a modern sage - I think the person who wrote it must have a deep understanding too: Link to Taoist Sage description Some other quick points: The 'Sage' is referred to as a person who has 'entered the Tao' or 'Awakened' rather than simply a person who follows the practice of the Tao and therefore sets himself/herself apart from others in the sense of wisdom and understanding. Such a person is dispassionate due to the knowing that all things are one. Such a person is compassionate as what arises from within is a natural response to what occurs before him or her - such an action is only of the moment and does not linger. Being 'Good' or 'Bad' is not relevant to the Sage however I think that what is being referred to in the Tao Te Ching as a good or bad man in essence means 'awakened' or 'ignorant'. The I-Ching is the same and often mentions the Great Man (Sage). Ultimately, if one were to replicate the actions and 'being' of a Sage one would be quiet and talk infrequently, one would not engage in arguments that cannot be proven one way or the other, one would be settled irrespective of what goes on around him or her, one would become quite withdrawn from the scurrying desires and company of man. One would not be interested in the world or in the views of others. To the outside world this person would seem aloof, disinterested, untroubled, uncaring, lacking motivation, not bothered - imagine being married to that person! Sounds the characteristics i look for in a wife I remember reading that article and all of his other ones. He provides some really deep insight about what taoist sages are like and what the scriptures say on how to become one with the tao. Edited January 14, 2012 by Tom Lin Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mYTHmAKER Posted January 14, 2012 Some areas I'd like to discuss in particular are: How does a sage manage to be first by being last? Why is the good man the teacher of bad men? Aaron A sage manages to be first by being last by not being selfish - therefore he is first in the hearts of others The good man is the teacher of bad men because he knows no distinction between men - in his eyes all men are inherently the same. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted January 14, 2012 A Taoist Sage.... 1.does not ejaculate or waste his energy in another way. 2.uses all of his free time to cultivate his vibration. that's all! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Lin Posted January 14, 2012 A Taoist Sage.... 1.does not ejaculate or waste his energy in another way. 2.uses all of his free time to cultivate his vibration. that's all! Lol that pretty much sums it all up. Not wasting his energy is basically putting all his energy into something useful; being compassionate and gaining wisdom. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zanshin Posted January 14, 2012 A Taoist Sage.... 1.does not ejaculate or waste his energy in another way. 2.uses all of his free time to cultivate his vibration. that's all! But how about us girls? Another paradox, all that vibration will be bound to get me off. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wells Posted January 14, 2012 But how about us girls? Another paradox, all that vibration will be bound to get me off. The female orgasm is yin, the energy flow is therefore inward...no big problem with energy loss here. The bigger problem for women is pregnancy and child-birth. BIG problem concerning energy loss! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 14, 2012 I was always wondering about translating the character "善" as "good" or "kind"...??? To my understanding about LoaTze thinking, he would be more concerned about one who is "kind" rather than "good". Confucius would be the one who will have more concern about one who is "good" or not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted January 15, 2012 (edited) A Taoist Sage.... 1.does not ejaculate or waste his energy in another way. 2.uses all of his free time to cultivate his vibration. that's all! It's really hard for me to believe that people still believe in this kind of bullshit in the 21st century. Oh well, takes all kinds I guess. Aaron edit- Masturbation is good, fun, and healthy. It reduces the chances of prostate cancer, depression, and can help you sleep... plus many other wonderful things. Sex, well do I really need to tell you all the benefits there? Oh yeah, if you have feelings of guilt about having sex, or are told that it's bad and you need to stop doing it, just keep in mind that this is the oldest trick in the book that religions use to control their followers... after all, control the most basic instincts of a person and you control them, whether it be Buddhism, Christianity, or in this case, apparently, religious Taoism. Aaron Edited January 15, 2012 by Twinner Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Lin Posted January 15, 2012 It's really hard for me to believe that people still believe in this kind of bullshit in the 21st century. Oh well, takes all kinds I guess. Aaron edit- Masturbation is good, fun, and healthy. It reduces the chances of prostate cancer, depression, and can help you sleep... plus many other wonderful things. Sex, well do I really need to tell you all the benefits there? Oh yeah, if you have feelings of guilt about having sex, or are told that it's bad and you need to stop doing it, just keep in mind that this is the oldest trick in the book that religions use to control their followers... after all, control the most basic instincts of a person and you control them, whether it be Buddhism, Christianity, or in this case, apparently, religious Taoism. Aaron So you don't believe in transmutating sexual energy? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jetsun Posted January 15, 2012 Oh yeah, if you have feelings of guilt about having sex, or are told that it's bad and you need to stop doing it, just keep in mind that this is the oldest trick in the book that religions use to control their followers... after all, control the most basic instincts of a person and you control them, whether it be Buddhism, Christianity, or in this case, apparently, religious Taoism. Aaron I very much agree with you here, the real way people are controlled is by manipulating them to turn their most powerful energy in on themselves, so most religions tricked people into feeling guilt and shame about their power and sexual energy. This form of control is still embedded in most Christian countries culture and psyche even if people are no longer attending church much. My understanding of sublimation is that some people need a period of abstinence and others don't, it depends on the individual. If you are feeling guilt and shame about things like nocturnal emissions like you sometimes see on this board then this is a big problem I think and the guilt and shame needs to be dealt with first before any attempts of sublimation is made. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tom Lin Posted January 15, 2012 (edited) I very much agree with you here, the real way people are controlled is by manipulating them to turn their most powerful energy in on themselves, so most religions tricked people into feeling guilt and shame about their power and sexual energy. This form of control is still embedded in most Christian countries culture and psyche even if people are no longer attending church much. My understanding of sublimation is that some people need a period of abstinence and others don't, it depends on the individual. If you are feeling guilt and shame about things like nocturnal emissions like you sometimes see on this board then this is a big problem I think and the guilt and shame needs to be dealt with first before any attempts of sublimation is made. I dont think its a matter of "need", its if the person wants to cultivate their energy and use direct that energy towards positive/creative things. And i have not seen a topic on this board (maybe you can show me?) where people feel guilty and shameful about ejaculation, rather its usually again they want to save that jing and create something that will benefit them spiritually. Edited January 15, 2012 by Tom Lin 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jetsun Posted January 15, 2012 (edited) I dont think its a matter of "need", its if the person wants to cultivate their energy and use direct that energy towards positive/creative things. And i have not seen a topic on this board (maybe you can show me?) where people feel guilty and shameful about ejaculation, rather its usually again they want to save that jing and create something that will benefit them spiritually. The impression I get from nearly all of the threads about sublimation of sexual energy is that many people are doing it to try to get rid of their sexuality rather than doing it from a healthy place, this is just a subjective observation though so doesn't prove much, I can't link from my phone at the moment but the old posts by Non were an example of this. I just think people should keep in mind what Twinner said that shame around sexual energy is one of the main methods through which we are controlled and turned into sheep by the powers and people who wish to manipulate us. Edited January 15, 2012 by Jetsun 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted January 15, 2012 (edited) So you don't believe in transmutating sexual energy? I have no opinion on transmuting sexual energy, my opinion is in regards to abstinence, which again and again we find is harmful to a person's physical, emotional, and spiritual well being. As Jetsun pointed out, there is a big difference between saying, I'm going to take a few weeks/months and be abstinent in order to cultivate my jing, and saying, sex is harmful and I need to abstain because every time I ejaculate I die a little bit. Well I'll tell you what, at least I'll have a good time before I die. This whole idea that sex is bad or a spiritually negative experience is founded upon the notion of guilt. One should not feel guilty about sex, especially masturbation, it's the most natural thing a person can do. If we weren't meant to masturbate, I think our body would've evolved some kind of defense against it, but it hasn't, instead it seems like it's one of the universal experiences that links everyone together, think about it, at least 95% of all men (according to the last statistics I've read) have masturbated. Those cultures that masturbate less, tend to have a much greater incident of nocturnal emissions, which tends to lead one to believe that regular releases of sexual fluids and the accompanying pleasure involved is not only healthy, but something the body needs. Again this denouncement of the sexual act and the subsequent delusional attempts to make it appear to be harmful, either spiritually (it makes Jesus cry), physically (you'll get hair on your palms), or emotionally (it causes you to have difficulty in forming relationships with girls), is all bunk. Yes overdoing it can cause harm, but if you're overdoing it, then you most likely have some kind of sexual hangup causing you to overdo it and addressing that is much more healthy than total abstinence (which in most cases will only exacerbate the problem). So, the sage masturbates and has sex, and you know what, he has no guilt about doing it. Aaron Edited January 15, 2012 by Twinner Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
