The understanding of 運氣, Yun Chi (Yun Qi)

[ChiDragon]

運氣 Yun Chi(Yunqi)

 

When I hear people talking about Chi Kung here, I was hoping someone will mention the term "Yun Chi". Anyway, Yun Chi is the key to Chi Kung. If someone can explain what it is, then one really knows what Chi Kung is all about. All Chi Kung practitioners should know what that is. Anybody would like to give it a try...???

Edited January 11, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Aetherous]

Display my ignorance? Hell no!

 

What's your view of it ChiDragon?

[ChiDragon]

Display my ignorance? Hell no!

 

What's your view of it ChiDragon?

 

Hahahaha.I see, you want me to display my ignorance?........

[Aetherous]

Sure!

[Bubbles]

Yun Qi is moving the Qi so that stagnation is removed.

[ChiDragon]

Yun Qi is moving the Qi so that stagnation is removed.

Yes, that is only one of the results of the action but not the description of the action(Yun Qi) itself.

[Bubbles]

Yes, that is only one of the results of the action but not the description of the action(Yun Qi) itself.

 

You can move the Qi by appropriate physical movements but it is better done when the Yi is applied to the movements as in Taijiquan.

 

edit: it is better done when the Yi is the actual origin of the movements as in Taijiquan.

 

English is not my first language

Edited January 11, 2012 by bubbles

[ChiDragon]

You can move the Qi by appropriate physical movements but it is better done when the Yi is applied to the movements as in Taijiquan.

 

edit: it is better done when the Yi is the actual origin of the movements as in Taijiquan.

 

English is not my first language

 

Yes, the Yi(意) initiates the movement of Qi. Without the flow of Qi, the movements in Taijiquan cannot be activated. Another words, the Qi and the Tai ji movements have to flow together which are in synchronize with the Yi. The Qi must be sufficient in the body to support all body movements. The process of sending the Qi allover the body is called Yun Qi. The next question is what is Yun Qi(運氣) and how...???

[寒月 Hanyue]

運氣 Yun Chi(Yunqi)

When I hear people talking about Chi Kung here, I was hoping someone will mention the term "Yun Chi".

 

Sorry it took so long, had I known you were waiting I might have mentioned it sooner

 

Anyway, Yun Chi is the key to Chi Kung.

 

Modern qigong in a sense I suppose so. It certainly is on Chinese TV

 

If someone can explain what it is, then one really knows what Chi Kung is all about. All Chi Kung practitioners should know what that is. Anybody would like to give it a try...???

 

Gotta love your loaded questions!

 

Yun 運 in simplistic modern terms means "to move", yet the term can have a different aspect in older traditions like gongfu and neigong. Yun 運 can "mean 'internal'..[and] is more associated with the organs, nervous system, brain, and feeling"(from Adam Hsu). So the concept of yunqi isn't just about "moving qi" although that is certainly an aspect of it.

 

The general explanation is similar to most explanations of the term Daoyin 导引, though again there are always definitions that vary.

 

the Yi(意) initiates the movement of Qi.

 

Depends on who you talk to. Understanding yunqi as ONLY being explainable as yi-qi is only one of several points of view in cultivation circles.

 

Yi moving the qi, appears to be short hand for shen/xin-yi-qi-li. Although yi moves the qi, is a popular saying it misses out the beginning and the end, that which exists before the yi (I have seen both 'shen' and 'xin' used), and that which is expressed afterwards via the 'movement' of qi (ie 'li'). It is but ONE model for understanding this process of creation from conception to expression.

 

Qi can be moved directly or indirectly. Indirectly uses the medium of yi(mind). Directly does not and is more related to the xin(heart). Having experienced the difference from a number of different teachers and practitioners, and glimpsed the difference myself, I am inclined to take them at their word.

 

 

Best,

 

Edited for clarification and spelling

Edited January 12, 2012 by snowmonki

[dwai]

Sorry it took so long, had I known you were waiting I might have mentioned it sooner

 

 

 

Modern qigong in a sense I suppose so. It certainly is on Chinese TV

 

 

 

Gotta love your loaded questions!

 

Yun 運 in simplistic modern terms means "to move", yet the term can have a different aspect in older traditions like gongfu and neigong. Yun 運 can "mean 'internal'..[and] is more associated with the organs, nervous system, brain, and feeling"(from Adam Hsu). So the concept of yunqi isn't just about "moving qi" although that is certainly an aspect of it.

 

The general explanation is similar to most explanations of the term Daoyin 导引, though again there are always definitions that vary.

 

 

 

Depends on who you talk to. Understanding yunqi as ONLY being explainable as yi-qi is only one of several points of view in cultivation circles.

 

Yi moving the qi, appears to be short hand for shen/xin-yi-qi-li. Although yi moves the qi, is a popular saying it misses out the beginning and the end, that which exists before the yi (I have seen both 'shen' and 'xin' used), and that which is expressed afterwards via the 'movement' of qi (ie 'li'). It is but ONE model for understanding this process of creation from conception to expression.

 

Qi can be moved directly or indirectly. Indirectly uses the medium of yi(mind). Directly does not and is more related to the xin(heart). Having experienced the difference from a number of different teachers and practitioners, and glimpsed the difference myself, I am inclined to take them at their word.

 

 

Best,

 

Edited for clarification and spelling

 

Qi will move on its own after a certain stage. The yi needs to be dropped so the tao and te can be united.

[dawei]

Yi moving the qi, appears to be short hand for shen/xin-yi-qi-li. Although yi moves the qi, is a popular saying it misses out the beginning and the end, that which exists before the yi (I have seen both 'shen' and 'xin' used), and that which is expressed afterwards via the 'movement' of qi (ie 'li'). It is but ONE model for understanding this process of creation from conception to expression.

 

Qi can be moved directly or indirectly. Indirectly uses the medium of yi(mind). Directly does not and is more related to the xin(heart). Having experienced the difference from a number of different teachers and practitioners, and glimpsed the difference myself, I am inclined to take them at their word.

'Yi moves the Qi' is attributed to Mozi... wonder if the OP knows this.

 

The OP wants people to answer and then to later correct them all... then he can claim he explains the meaning and therefore he is understanding Qigong; and nobody else does

 

SO let's play his game

 

I disagree that indirect is Yi, particularly for most it is directly. And it is man intention; so not of Dao... it is just human practice. Practice to get to some level, maybe... If Yi gets to the point of indirect then it is not even conscious. So no need to label it. Maybe we can call it Ziran. But to me this is Qi arising in Taiji.

 

I saw the OP mention that Yi directs the Qi in Taiji... I can't disagree more... If you are using [Yi] intention to direct then YOU are directing, not Dao nor Ziran nor Yi...

 

When the Qi naturally arises and naturally follows and naturally flows... there is naturally Qi of naturally Yi... It is unconscious. this is Yun Qi.

[Taozi]

The term "Yun Chi" make me feel funny right now,

 

Practice Moving-Qi needs lucky,If you lucky enough,Soon you will get improvement . If not,You will practice in low level for a long time. QiGong must be very important and very popular in ancient china,When frends meets,They greets each other, say: "How about your Yun-Qi?"

 

I wish everyone have a Good Yun-Qi in new year.

[寒月 Hanyue]

I disagree that indirect is Yi, particularly for most it is directly.

 

These are all opinions describing something that can't really be laid down. Understand based on your experience.

 

Bruce teaches it as;

 

意 出 做 (yi chu zuo) Which I translate simplistically as "mind produces movement/action"

 

and 氣 出 做 (qi chu zuo) translated simplistically as "energy produces movement/action"

 

(I recommend looking things up in a good Chinese dictionary and understanding the words for yourselves)

 

The first one uses 意 yi, that which emerges from the xin as a medium to engage with the qi. The second is direct contact with the qi from the xin, no intermediary. While I agree this second idea is more in line with ziran and 'dao', it can be used in ways other than say spontaneously, ie for healing.

 

It is not that "yi moves the qi" is wrong or incorrect, it is simply one aspect of a greater whole that also includes other things.

 

When Ya Mu explained about the INTENT and intention and the differences of that, it reminded me of the above. That's not to say they are the exact same thing, but the heart of the two messages seems closer than many other explanations I've seen discussing the same area.

 

Best,

Edited January 12, 2012 by snowmonki

[ChiDragon]

The Yi, 意, is the intent of the mind. If there was no Yi or the intent of the mind, what else is going to initiate the flow of Chi and movements...???

 

The Yi is YOU, yourself. If YOU have no Yi, you are a dead body....

 

意 出 做 (yi chu zuo) Which I translate simplistically as "mind produces movement/action"

The phrase is not proper Chinese or translation to convey its meaning.

 

做(zuo) means "to do something". It doesn't mean "movement/action".

Edited January 12, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dwai]

The Yi, 意, is the intent of the mind. If there was no Yi or the intent of the mind, what else is going to initiate the flow of Chi and movements...???

 

意 出 做 (yi chu zuo) Which I translate simplistically as "mind produces movement/action"

The phrase is not proper Chinese or translation to convey its meaning.

 

做(zuo) means "to do something". It doesn't mean "movement/action".

 

I think that's at the beginner/intermediate level. As practice deepens, the objective is to get the "yi" out of the picture so your qi moves with the universal qi (or the Dao). To be able to allow the Dao to move your qi is to be able to vibrate at that frequency (so there is no self and no other...but only one -- re-integration). Or so I have been told as part of the system of Dao Gong I learn.

[ChiDragon]

The term "Yun Chi" make me feel funny right now,

 

Practice Moving-Qi needs lucky,If you lucky enough,Soon you will get improvement . If not,You will practice in low level for a long time. QiGong must be very important and very popular in ancient china,When frends meets,They greets each other, say: "How about your Yun-Qi?"

 

I wish everyone have a Good Yun-Qi in new year.

 

I did not want to introduce the secondary meaning of "Yun Chi". Thanks to our newcomer. The secondary meaning is "luck".

 

The definition in Chi Kung only:

Yun, 運: to circulate; to transport; to move; to manipulate; to manage; to maneuver.

Chi, 氣: air; breath; energy.

 

There are three four groups of people who understand Chi Kung diffenently.

1. Beliefs: People just know the general knowledge based on what they were told to believe.

2. Intermediate: People who know that Chi Kung is the ultimate method of breathing.

3. Advance: People who like to understand more by linking modern science to Chi Kung.

4. People who advance modern science/arts through qi-gong.

 

 

Edited to add item 4.

Edited January 17, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Birch]

4. People who advance modern science/arts through qi-gong ;-)

[ChiDragon]

I think that's at the beginner/intermediate level. As practice deepens, the objective is to get the "yi" out of the picture so your qi moves with the universal qi (or the Dao). To be able to allow the Dao to move your qi is to be able to vibrate at that frequency (so there is no self and no other...but only one -- re-integration). Or so I have been told as part of the system of Dao Gong I learn.

 

Well, without the Yi, any Chi Kung practice cannot be stopped. The Yi actually is the cultivation of the mind. Only the intend of the mind that can control the breathing and movements. When one breathes deep into the dan tien, it was said to be Yun Chi. One can imagine "Yun Chi" as transporting your Chi from the outside to the dan tien inside the body. So, the the maximum of Chi will be distributed throughout inside the body.

 

If Chi can move by itself or with the universal Chi, then why do we need to practice Chi Kung breathing in the first place...???

Edited January 12, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

There is one most important procedure in Yun Chi is to hold the breath and move it up and down inside the trachea to prevent suffocation. It is a life saver when someone fell on the back causing to have a gap in between breathing. If one knows this technique will save one's life.

 

I remember that I was fell off the exercise bar that was attached to my door jamb just by the spring action inside the bar. The bar doesn't hold the body weight too well, hence, I fell on my back and cannot catch my breath. Lucky I knew how to Yun Chi and saved my life.

 

In another situation, not long after I fell off the exercise bar, a girl rolled down the hill when we were hiking and cannot catch her breath. I told her not to say anything but hold my finger if she is still alive. Then, I told her how to Yun Chi and saved her life.

[dwai]

If Chi can move by itself or with the universal Chi, then why do we need to practice Chi Kung breathing in the first place...???

 

To get to a point where the Qi can move with the universal Qi. Like I wrote, Yi is necessary (imho), till one can get their qi vibrating fast enough that it can resonate with universal Qi.

 

Qi Gong is simply a tool to get us to a point when we can start vibrating at the "right" frequency.

 

Also, the breath is a crude prop to get the Qi moving...breath has to be dropped to advance to higher levels of qi gong (ie qi should move irrespective of how you breath). So the levels should be:

 

1) using breath to co-ordinate the qi

2) using Yi to co-ordinate the qi

3) not using either breath or Yi, the qi moves on its own

Edited January 12, 2012 by dwai

[joeblast]

There is one most important procedure in Yun Chi is to hold the breath and move it up and down inside the trachea to prevent suffocation. It is a life saver when someone fell on the back causing to have a gap in between breathing. If one knows this technique will save one's life.

 

I remember that I was fell off the exercise bar that was attached to my door jamb just by the spring action inside the bar. The bar doesn't hold the body weight too well, hence, I fell on my back and cannot catch my breath. Lucky I knew how to Yun Chi and saved my life.

 

In another situation, not long after I fell off the exercise bar, a girl rolled down the hill when we were hiking and cannot catch her breath. I told her not to say anything but hold my finger if she is still alive. Then, I told her how to Yun Chi and saved her life.

one could also in such a situation focus the breath on the sphenoid sinus

[dawei]

When Ya Mu explained about the INTENT and intention and the differences of that, it reminded me of the above. That's not to say they are the exact same thing, but the heart of the two messages seems closer than many other explanations I've seen discussing the same area.

 

I would like to see that. I suspect I would agree with it. I do see three types of intention:

1. Physical (mind)

2. Energetic

3. Spiritual

 

 

As practice deepens, the objective is to get the "yi" out of the picture so your qi moves with the universal qi (or the Dao). To be able to allow the Dao to move your qi is to be able to vibrate at that frequency (so there is no self and no other...but only one -- re-integration).

I might explain it as: the acquired, physical "Yi" develops the energetic "Yi"; as it is developed further and further it will want to join to the original [spiritual] "Yi". And I do think one can develop "Yi" in different ways for different uses. So one size is not going to fit all things.

[ChiDragon]

one could also in such a situation focus the breath on the sphenoid sinus

...................

[寒月 Hanyue]

ChiDragon

 

On this forum, you have consistently expressed an understanding of, and beliefs about, what qigong is or is not that are generally not inline with my own. I do not have a problem with that, I think everyone should formulate their own understanding through the practice of the methods they study and the teachings of their teachers.

 

I am not a native Chinese speaker, as I beleive you are nto a native English speaker. What I do know about languages comes from my anthropology background. I also know that common terms in any language can take on nuances and differences in meaning given specific contexts, and this doubly so when dealing with lineages and traditions. Words also change over time. I state all this only so you (as well as others reading) better know where I am coming from in the following comments.

 

The Yi, 意, is the intent of the mind. If there was no Yi or the intent of the mind, what else is going to initiate the flow of Chi and movements...???

 

As I have been taught, 意 Yi, is made up of a musical note 音 (yin) emerging from the xin 心. Xin is often translated as mind, heart, heart-mind, but in Daoism can also have more of the meaning of 'Being'. Yi can be that which is expressed from our heart/mind/Being. As such it is most often seen as 'intention'.

 

Intention is still a mediary between heart/mind/Being and action hence the phrase xin-yi-qi-li. Yi is born of the xin, yi moves qi moves, qi moves and is expressed in action, in this case 'li'. But action does not have to move through this process in nature, it is however helpful in learning. But that then is getting into yuwei and wuwei.

 

Surely the idea of wuxin 无心 (no heart/mind) would not be so relevant or sought within cultivation if that which is produced by the xin was held and regarded so highly? For example my teacher says the mind does initiate the movement of qi, but then needs to be dropped. It is not used to manipulate qi.

 

But this is really where modern qigong and older cultivation practices appear to diverge. I don't mean that in any better/worse judgement statement, so much as a recognition of the differences.

 

The Yi is YOU, yourself. If YOU have no Yi, you are a dead body....

 

Interesting comment, see above. But no-one said there was no yi (if yi is simply that which emerges from the xin, then we can appreciate there is passive and active and that they are quite different).

 

意 出 做 (yi chu zuo) Which I translate simplistically as "mind produces movement/action"

The phrase is not proper Chinese or translation to convey its meaning.

 

做(zuo) means "to do something". It doesn't mean "movement/action".

I am well aware of the oddness of the Chinese in those phrases. I have discussed them with several native Chinese speakers. I can only say that they are a part of the Daoist lineage as taught by Bruce Frantzis from his teacher Liu Heng Chieh.

 

I am also aware of the nuances of meaning in the words within the phrases. I personally prefer to leave space and ambiguity in my understanding of Chinese (and so often make short terse and heavily simplistic notes, as I deepen my understanding of the terms in the way the lineages use them this helps me from fixating solely on one "definition"). I feel it is part of the Beauty of the language (see the quote in my signature!). This is why I clearly stated

 

Which I translate simplistically

(so maybe its was too simplistic, my apologies).Followed by

(I recommend looking things up in a good Chinese dictionary and understanding the words for yourselves)

I provide the Chinese, and the pinyin so that those interested in such things may look into it all a little deeper for them selves. And come to their own understanding. I am NOT trying to dictate how anyone should think or belive about these things. I offer possibilities, and hopefully interesting ones, that I am aware of. Mainly in the hope that others will do the same and we can then all learn and grow.

 

I think that's at the beginner/intermediate level. As practice deepens, the objective is to get the "yi" out of the picture so your qi moves with the universal qi (or the Dao). To be able to allow the Dao to move your qi is to be able to vibrate at that frequency (so there is no self and no other...but only one -- re-integration). Or so I have been told as part of the system of Dao Gong I learn.

 

Just to add additional confusion, but hopefully another dimension to this discussion I will throw in something further from what I have been taught.

 

My Kundalini-shakti teachers always said, 'qi is dumb kundalini-shakti is intelligent'. This is because qi can be manipulated and K-S cannot.

 

Nan Huai-Chin explains that Daoists are interested not in qi but in "real" or "genuine" qi (正氣 zhengqi), this he explains is called Kundalini-shakti in India.

 

Bruce Frantzis explains that the qi referred to in acupuncture and TCM, the qi of the body, is NOT that same as the qi referred to by Daoists. He simply calls one 'qi', and the other 'Qi'.

 

Why bring this up?

 

Simply put, when we read a text, particularly one from a while back and they use the word qi. It is not always clear to which phenomenon they are referring. So when someone else then says "yi moves qi moves" or "use the yi to move your qi", well it may lead to mis-leading you as to the nature of things. Or place a glass ceiling on your experiences.

 

Chi, 氣: air; breath; energy.

 

 

There are three groups of people who understand Chi Kung diffenently.

1. Beliefs: People just know the general knowledge based on what they were told to believe.

2. Intermediate: People who know that Chi Kung is the ultimate method of breathing.

3. Advance: People who like to understand more by linking modern science to Chi Kung.

 

Sorry, I think thats Bull* for too many reasons for me to go into.

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

I would like to see that. I suspect I would agree with it.

 

Search his posts I'm sure he's mentioned it here before. Bar that, get his book. Shameless plug from a student!? Never!!

 

Not only is Ya Mu one of only a VERY small number of people who have expressed the difference in a palpable way in my presence. He is the ONLY teacher I have seen to have people he met only three days prior tangibly experiencing it for themselves in a productive manner!

 

Most of what we have been discussing on this thread falls into 'linear', body methods, mind methods, body-mind methods etc. These are not the same as 'non-linear'. I can't explain it, I've felt it, maybe some things are meant to be left as mystery, to think you understand is a delusion and gets in the way of the Dao.

 

Oh well, off for practice.

 

Best,

Edited January 13, 2012 by snowmonki