Being committed in your training goals vs dabbling

[Cameron]

So in the hostel in Harbin last night I spoke with a woman from States and I brought up how if my friends in Korea did something they did it 100%.

 

Whereas, correct me if you think I am wrong, Americans tend to be more dabblers.

 

Like if people in Korea get into hiking..they do it 100%. They hike every weekend. If they get into martial arts they do their art 100%. A spiritual practice 100%. Drinking 100%

 

We Americans, I am part of the group also, tend to treat different things like we are shopping in a grocery store. I guess I can see the benefits also. We grew up with more then most(maybe that is changing lol)so we had more choices. So I wonder what your take is. Is having 10 things to choose from better then having only a couple or ultimately just sidetrack you more.

 

Even here, look at all the spiritual practices and teachers their are to choose! Imagine the ancient Taoist or Buddhist seekers being fortunate to find even one Master and then being accepted as his students! We have many, all opening their doors to us and saying come do my life changing practice.

 

Anyway, just some thoughts on modern existence and how sometimes I wonder if being spoiled materialistically and even spiritually doesn't have it's downfall. Or perhaps it has the potential to make you a more discerning person?

Edited January 23, 2012 by Cameron

[Cameron]

Doh! Double post.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Cameron

[Chang]

Part of the problem is the choice we have in the modern world.

 

We begin training in one system, see something else and change to that, are told of a new Master with a different teaching and feel that we must drop what we were doing and try this.

 

"With a destination in mind better to take a thousand steps in one direction than one step in a thousand different directions."

[Cameron]

Exacty, but do you think it actually is a problem or that we are lucky? In a way, I see both sides of the coin. It's great to have choices but ultimately you don't want to be making choices forever.

 

Maybe it's sort of like dating lol. Modern people go on tons of dates and meet a wide variety of potential partners and make up their mind. Then if it doesn't work out they get a divorce lol.

 

In India, you get an arranged marriage to someone you don't know and supposedly the success of those marriages is very high!

 

We modern practitiners in the west seem to be like that too sometimes. But I think it is good to develop awareness about it so we can see our faults. I don't think their is neccissarily anything wrong with having alot of choices as long as you can be focused and discriminating. Otherwise you could just get lost.

[Chang]

Any traveller who knows his destination can choose many different methods of transport and still arrive safely.

 

The same could be said of Taoist cultivation. Once you have a sound knowledge of the principles involved then it is possible to use different methods to achieve the desired results.

 

The danger lies when you become a dabbler, chopping and changing with the wind and never developing a solid foundation.

 

The perfect example of the problem is that of the constant dieter. A different diet every month and yet the weight coninues to rise. Yet we all know the basis of losing weight. Eat less, exercise more.

 

I am a firm believer in stability and consistancy in practice. Don't expect miracles.

[Cameron]

Ahh good point. Once you have built a good foundation then it can be fun to dabble. But until that is accomplished get to work!

[Ish]

I think it's a double edged sword. You can find many practices for what you want/need but because the knowledge is spread so far, there are a lot of sub par teachers.

 

A bit of dabbling doesn't hurt IMO (and is actually very useful), as long as you are mature about what you want and can commit to something good eventually.

[Cameron]

Yes. The challenge is when you have access to top teachers but don't want to waste your-or their-time.

 

So I think the way most people seem to do it is dabble with many things until you find what really works well for you. Then go for it.

[Protector]

Watch Fighter in the Wind, there's a scene where the main character was training in the mountains and he wanted to leave very much so he shaved his eyebrows because without eyebrows people back then looked like ghosts and were not acceptable back in society

[Aetherous]

Well according to Bruce Frantzis you're supposed to do everything 70%.

 

Or according to the military, 110%.

 

I like a combination of both taking it easy, and surpassing all limits...depending on the result.

 

For some spiritual paths, it's very important to be committed...in those paths, it's the only way to mastery. It would be better to not even start than to be a dabbler.

[dawei]

Any traveller who knows his destination can choose many different methods of transport and still arrive safely.

 

The same could be said of Taoist cultivation. Once you have a sound knowledge of the principles involved then it is possible to use different methods to achieve the desired results.

 

The danger lies when you become a dabbler, chopping and changing with the wind and never developing a solid foundation.

 

The perfect example of the problem is that of the constant dieter. A different diet every month and yet the weight coninues to rise. Yet we all know the basis of losing weight. Eat less, exercise more.

 

I am a firm believer in stability and consistancy in practice. Don't expect miracles.

I appreciate the point your making here but the very idea of 'many different methods' has to include dabbling since we cannot know any persons destiny in this. Each path is one's own. If they have certain goals or expectations and fall short and it may be that a legit criticism for them would be that they are not consistent enough for the outcome they want.

 

But in general, I think the opposite problem shows up whereby people make it out like you have to be a part of a lineage, or doing xzy, or must do breathing like this, or must do this much percent... All of this is striving and human effort and to some degree is the opposite of what I see the DDJ saying.

 

I personal take no goal or expectation. I dabble in many things since I see them holistic to energy work and I want to not let the idea creep in that one way is supposedly better. In fact, I don't want any ideas to creep in if I can help it. Just follow where the heart is lead. And this is probably my important distinction: I don't see myself as seeking a goal like I am striving towards something or connecting to something; I see it more like a destiny. "Dao in you" means Dao draws you back. To me, this is the destiny. Follow that pull or feeling is enough and if your open you'll get more than you can bargain for.

 

Recently I am reading Master Waysun Liao book, Nine Nights with the Taoist Master and I find he is describing my feeling. He uses a very curious word for describing Lao Zi's manner as "Tao Gong" (instead of Qi Gong)... and portrays is as "Tao's work" and "going with the flow"... That would be my point. If it is me, then it is striving; if it is Tao then it is destiny to flow with.

[Cameron]

Good points. To use myself as an example, I have already gone very deep into Aikido training. Years spent training with top teachers. And when I was in Korea I got very into kettlebell training. Here in China, I have been taking IMA classes and learning Xing Yi.

 

My teacher here is teaching me a system. They also teach Tai Chi and Bagua.But it's a little distracting when right in the middle of him showing me Xing Yi I want to do Aikido. He is sensitive to energy so can literally feel my intention to go into an Aikido move as he is showing me the energy of a Xing Yi move. It's like Aikido is already in my nervous system from training so much and my body is just like why even bother with this when you already have that.

 

But then I also could see the benefit of going deep, emptying my cup to learn Chinese IMA. But there is an American 5th dan Aikidoist in Bejing and am just thinking why not just go back?

 

Then I'll also just get the thought, why not just train with my kettlebell and hike alot like I did in Korea and drop MA. Just be strong and healthy.

 

Sure, I could do a little of each- just dabble. Or I could focus on one of them to actually "get somewhere". In any training system, wheether Xing Yi, aikido or even kettlebell training, you have to be somewhat focused and committed to see real results I think.

[RiverSnake]

You get in what you put in. If your a full time dabbler you will never develop a very deep practice.

Edited January 26, 2012 by OldGreen

[Mokona]

Been in the Military for about 5 years, everyone here is pretty serious, people who half-ass don't last. (USA)

Edited January 24, 2012 by Mokona

[Cameron]

Yes, I think it would be accurate to say half assing it doesn't lead to achievement. Just look at the high level practitiners of anything. Maybe Michael Jordan messed around with other sports but he spent most of his time on basketball.

 

So I think it's ok to dabble if you don't know what you want yet or it doesn't matter to you to achieve excellence. Or if your just in to things as a hobby or for fun, which is fine in and of itself but not really going to strike oil so to speak.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Good points. To use myself as an example, I have already gone very deep into Aikido training. Years spent training with top teachers. And when I was in Korea I got very into kettlebell training. Here in China, I have been taking IMA classes and learning Xing Yi.

 

My teacher here is teaching me a system. They also teach Tai Chi and Bagua.But it's a little distracting when right in the middle of him showing me Xing Yi I want to do Aikido. He is sensitive to energy so can literally feel my intention to go into an Aikido move as he is showing me the energy of a Xing Yi move. It's like Aikido is already in my nervous system from training so much and my body is just like why even bother with this when you already have that.

 

But then I also could see the benefit of going deep, emptying my cup to learn Chinese IMA. But there is an American 5th dan Aikidoist in Bejing and am just thinking why not just go back?

 

Then I'll also just get the thought, why not just train with my kettlebell and hike alot like I did in Korea and drop MA. Just be strong and healthy.

 

Sure, I could do a little of each- just dabble. Or I could focus on one of them to actually "get somewhere". In any training system, wheether Xing Yi, aikido or even kettlebell training, you have to be somewhat focused and committed to see real results I think.

 

B.K. Frantzis wrote an interesting article about this.

 

There is "dabbling", where you do a little bit of everything, and your end knowledge is kind of shallow.

 

And then there is cross training in multiple things to get a single focused better understanding of something, so where your end knowledge about an area becomes very deep.

 

So if you're training xingyi, for instance, you might be interested in how your body creates and issues power. You might think of your aikido days, and look at how aikido handles the issue. Then during kettlebell training, you might be paying attention to how the force generated is the same or different in xingyi, and how it might change in aikido. Then you might look at how you handle all of those factors with added variables of endurance when you take up hiking.

 

So yes, you are doing more than one thing. But you aren't really "dabbling" in the same sense.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Sloppy Zhang

[Cameron]

Interesting. I haven't read it in years but something about that reminds me of some part of the Book of Five Rings by Musashi Miyamoto. I can't remember the passage or anything but something along the lines of studying many things improved his skill with swords.

[Gerard]

I entirely agree with your post, Sean. When Westerners arrive to the Orient and realise what the conditions of spiritual practice really are they whinge a lot and expect better conditions.

 

Examples:

 

1. Chen Village. Expect to learn, breathe and train Taiji 24/7, with poorer living conditions (which have improved significantly in modern times as Westerners demanded from the Chinese masters better living conditions, lol). Even Chen Xiaowang was saying in the Empty Minds movie that the locals wouldn't dare to ask for the teachings the Westerners receive since they provide a good source of income and their short stays.

 

IMO Taijiquan's quality inevitably suffers as a result of Western interaction, I mean what is passed on to them.

 

 

2. Various Buddhist monasteries in Thailand. People can't stand sleeping on a hard wooden board covered with a thin matt and a basic blanket, expect to meditate silently 24/7 with no human contact except your Vipassana teacher. Obviously many quit after a couple of days.

 

 

 

Westerners want it easy and expect results too fast and often change methods without giving them enough time to settle down and mature in order to produce noticeable results. Not every Westerner is like that though nor Asians are all committed to this either. The Dharma doesn't judge a man because of the colour of his skin but the truth is that Westerners are spoiled.

[Cameron]

Westerners can be spoiled but I don't know that it's "all bad".

 

One thing that is certain though, most our teachers worked a hell of a lot harder to get the teachings then we have to.

 

I don't care which modern Taoist/Buddhist teacher you are following, look at their lives. Almost all of them(the real ones not intellectual scholarly boobs) dedicated their entire lives for decades to training and following their Master.

 

The nice part is most of them don't want the next generation(us) to have to go through what they went through. I don't know what all of your experience is but I really look at the top teachers of our generation as a bunch of Bodhisattvas. They trained blood, sweat and tears with really old school Masters and then come to us like Santa Claus saying ok guys..here is what I found..hope it is helpful to you.

 

We are lucky and we shouldn't take it for granted.

[Aetherous]

Edit: stupid internet connection!!!!!!

Edited January 24, 2012 by Scotty

[Protector]

Whew! Good thing I'm not a westener... or am I?

dun dun DUUUUUUUUUN

[konchog uma]

sinfest youre an honorary westerner

 

i think that the dabbling/focusing dichotomy comes down to personal nature more than culture. Like astrology, some people are some way, some are another. I think some people dabble their whole lives and become "jacks of all trades", while others dabble til they find something they can focus on. Still others are born to just focus, and aren't happy dabbling. I think its a question of personal nature moreso than asian/anglo or east/west

[Cameron]

Yes, so we should be grateful and not squander what we have been given.

 

Pay it forward.

 

Like I have a couple American friends in Korea and China that are sort of "know it all's". They are highly intellectual and well read on all types of subjects. But their understanding is shallow and purely intellectual.

 

Like one friend of mine, an atheist, got me talking about my experiences one night. So I spoke about some of the things I experienced after learning Kunlun. For the most part he was very receptive but didn't have any interest to actually practice. When he mentioned his thoughts on Taoism later(probably after doing some reading) he said"Taoism is about experiencing emptiness".

 

Very good but totally intellectual. Like, ok I have that Taoism thing figured out if I ever need to discuss it with someone lol.

 

Another freind of mine in Beijing summed up Taoism as crazy because it's just about " never ejaculating so you can build your yang energy". Again, an extremely shallow understanding which doesn't take into account the actual purpouse and depth of the tradition(which the tradition, as you know has many aspects such as fire methods, water methods etc)

 

It points to an overall shallowness. I have studied and practiced Taoist stuff for over 10 years and feel I am barely scratching the surface. If you ever hear me sum up what Taoism is in a sentence from something I read without having any personal experience of what I am talking about please shoot me.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Cameron

[Birch]

Whew! Good thing I'm not a westener... or am I?

dun dun DUUUUUUUUUN

Eastern European, moved west. You're assimilated. Enjoy!

[Protector]

I blame this song

Maybe I should keep going west untill I'm east or try the space route

Be a Spacener!

but that would be over thinking what is west and east and then figure out what would be neither, sheesh