Being committed in your training goals vs dabbling

[dwai]

So in the hostel in Harbin last night I spoke with a woman from States and I brought up how if my friends in Korea did something they did it 100%.

 

Whereas, correct me if you think I am wrong, Americans tend to be more dabblers.

 

Like if people in Korea get into hiking..they do it 100%. They hike every weekend. If they get into martial arts they do their art 100%. A spiritual practice 100%. Drinking 100%

 

We Americans, I am part of the group also, tend to treat different things like we are shopping in a grocery store. I guess I can see the benefits also. We grew up with more then most(maybe that is changing lol)so we had more choices. So I wonder what your take is. Is having 10 things to choose from better then having only a couple or ultimately just sidetrack you more.

 

Even here, look at all the spiritual practices and teachers their are to choose! Imagine the ancient Taoist or Buddhist seekers being fortunate to find even one Master and then being accepted as his students! We have many, all opening their doors to us and saying come do my life changing practice.

 

Anyway, just some thoughts on modern existence and how sometimes I wonder if being spoiled materialistically and even spiritually doesn't have it's downfall. Or perhaps it has the potential to make you a more discerning person?

 

traditional practice is like farming. You prepare the soil, plant the seeds, patiently and meticulously water the seeds till the crop grows, after which you can "reap fruits of the crop". What happens in the West (most cases I have seen) is like shopping in the supermarket. You have a variety of choices...and you don't have to put in the effort to pick from various "crops". So you go and buy this..when you are bored, you buy that...and then there's yet another and so on and so forth.

 

 

It is nothing but a reflection of the society we live in, if you ask me. We are just so far removed from the actual process of doing anything from scratch, that we tend to think that same holds good in the non-material realm.

 

When these same "consumers" go to places like India or China, I think they often times suffer "ego-bruising" because the teacher tells them to drill the same thing, over and over till they can really understand what it is they are really learning. I was watching the Empty Mind movie titled "Chen Village" where Chen Bing makes the same observation you have made about teaching Chen Taiji Quan in the West vs back in the Chen Jia Gou..

 

How many Masters of Martial Arts have you known that haven't put in their life into their art? My Aikido sensei spent several decades in Aikido. My Tai Chi teacher spent decades in Tai Chi. Interestingly enough, they are both also highly accomplished artists (one is painter and the other a jazz musician)...I would venture to say either of them would not have reached their level of accomplishment without having "cultivated" their crop like a farmer would grow his crop?

 

 

[dwai]

B.K. Frantzis wrote an interesting article about this.

 

There is "dabbling", where you do a little bit of everything, and your end knowledge is kind of shallow.

 

And then there is cross training in multiple things to get a single focused better understanding of something, so where your end knowledge about an area becomes very deep.

 

So if you're training xingyi, for instance, you might be interested in how your body creates and issues power. You might think of your aikido days, and look at how aikido handles the issue. Then during kettlebell training, you might be paying attention to how the force generated is the same or different in xingyi, and how it might change in aikido. Then you might look at how you handle all of those factors with added variables of endurance when you take up hiking.

 

So yes, you are doing more than one thing. But you aren't really "dabbling" in the same sense.

 

 

Was it here on TTB, that Bruce Frantzis talks about digging one well that is 200 feet deep than 200 wells that are one foot deep?

 

 

[dawei]

Good points. To use myself as an example, I have already gone very deep into Aikido training. Years spent training with top teachers. And when I was in Korea I got very into kettlebell training. Here in China, I have been taking IMA classes and learning Xing Yi.

 

My teacher here is teaching me a system. They also teach Tai Chi and Bagua.But it's a little distracting when right in the middle of him showing me Xing Yi I want to do Aikido. He is sensitive to energy so can literally feel my intention to go into an Aikido move as he is showing me the energy of a Xing Yi move. It's like Aikido is already in my nervous system from training so much and my body is just like why even bother with this when you already have that.

 

But then I also could see the benefit of going deep, emptying my cup to learn Chinese IMA. But there is an American 5th dan Aikidoist in Bejing and am just thinking why not just go back?

 

Then I'll also just get the thought, why not just train with my kettlebell and hike alot like I did in Korea and drop MA. Just be strong and healthy.

 

Sure, I could do a little of each- just dabble. Or I could focus on one of them to actually "get somewhere". In any training system, wheether Xing Yi, aikido or even kettlebell training, you have to be somewhat focused and committed to see real results I think.

nice reply. I understand your point. In the book, Liao has Lao Zi as constantly pointing out that his way is NOT marital; the former is Tao Gong and the latter is man striving and endeavoring after something. So, yes, the latter requires much focus, dedication, training, and commitment to get their expected results... More power to those who take that path.

[Cameron]

I think that was Ken Cohen and not Bruce.

[Cameron]

Cool, I already have a main practice that I am totally dedicated to. This is more just "supplemental" stuff.

 

Like, my teacher is very skilled in Chinese IMA but it's not really his thing to teach it martially. He does small classes now more as a health practice as his focus s entirely spiritual.

 

From the perspective of developing myself in his system. It's probably not too important if I do aikido, xing yi or just lift kettlebells. The only thing he specifically told me wouldn't me in harmony last time I saw him was MMA. He looked at me and motioned like he was doing "ground and pound" on somebody and just shook his head as if to say "no".

 

But all the other stuff is positive. And I still watch MMA occasionally for entertainment lol.

[Cameron]

 

How many Masters of Martial Arts have you known that haven't put in their life into their art? My Aikido sensei spent several decades in Aikido. My Tai Chi teacher spent decades in Tai Chi. Interestingly enough, they are both also highly accomplished artists (one is painter and the other a jazz musician)...I would venture to say either of them would not have reached their level of accomplishment without having "cultivated" their crop like a farmer would grow his crop?

 

Absolutely. My Aikido teachers(some direct live in students of O'Sensei) didn't train in their art it was their life.

 

The American lineage Xing Yi yeacher I am friends with dedicated his life to the practice and now in his 70's is still strong as a bull.

[johndoe2012]

I guess there are cultural traits and then individual ones.

 

And then different aspects of the individual such as the focused adult and the playful inner child.

 

Suppressing the individual tendencies like they do in Asia is a bad idea. Authoritarianism, no thank you!

 

Of course you need to have a main practise that you can develop some foundation in from which you can reach "the higher levels".

 

In order to know why you dabble you need to be able to listen to your inner being and get a clear understanding on what is going on. This process in itself takes some time in my experience.

 

Personally I have had different main practises and some minor ones over the years.

 

I agree with dawei

 

But in general, I think the opposite problem shows up whereby people make it out like you have to be a part of a lineage, or doing xzy, or must do breathing like this, or must do this much percent... All of this is striving and human effort and to some degree is the opposite of what I see the DDJ saying.

 

So it is kind of breaking down the wall of appearances that the different practises are really different.

[Cameron]

Might as well mention my BJJ teacher in Korea to. Amazing skill only aquired by decades of training combined with sick genetics.

 

That's something to take into account also. Like BJJ is great fun and all but who really lasts in it? Most people seem to get injured or quit after they reach a certain age.

 

Even aikido, as much fun as it is I have seen too many people with banged up bodies.

 

This is definetly an area the Chinese arts seem to really shine. When I look at the Xing yi dude I studied with in the States or the older Chinese Masters they still look in great shape into old age. A testament to their practice and methods.

[Mal]

I've been doing Tong Long for 10 years, now at disciple level with government recognized instructor qualification. But I feel it will be at least another 10 years (with good fortune) before I might hope to approach master level, which is where we begin to scratch the surface of deep. (In fairness SiGung once said Tong long is a very deep art)

 

The "understanding is shallow and purely intellectual" is an good observation, although I think those people might confused as to how their intellectual understanding could be labeled as shallow? When I got out of university pure intellectual understanding was basically what school had taught me my entire file. "Success" was doing well intellectually, there wasn't really any other requirement Perhaps worse, physical skill training (Tafe college, trade apprenticeship) was devalued. Those jobs paid less, while jobs from intellectual skills paid more.

 

Years later sometimes people would come to Tai Chi and know HEAPS about Tai Chi, ask endless questions, often about quite high level stuff, unfortunately it was also obvious that these people had never done any Tai Chi PRACTICE, and had received no "real" benefit from all their "book fu"

 

Sean- Many of us on The Tao Bums forum take an eclectic and nontraditional

approach to cultivation. As someone whose path was

also quite eclectic and yet still traditional, is there any advice you

would impart to the modern, information-age, spiritual seeker?

 

 

Bruce Frantzis- I can speak from my experience about what the traditional approach is and the eclectic

way I went about it, and the essential difference between an eclectic traditional

approach and the approach of the dabbler, who just knows a bit of this and a bit of that.

 

The first issue is: why become eclectic? In some sense you become eclectic so that you

can gain a really specific perspective on something. You may want to do tai chi, but as

an eclectic, you may want to do a tai chi specifically for fighting. For example, I did

Praying Mantis and 8 Drunken Immortals. Doing these showed me some martial

aspects of tai chi I needed to pay attention to rather than ignore. But I went deeply into

them. I didn't just skim the surface with them.

 

There is a very old phrase from India about the desert: if you want to strike water don't

dig 20 wells ten feet deep, dig one well 200 feet deep. That sums up the approach that

I’ve taken. My principle was that if I was to be eclectic in several different things, in each

one of them I dug a well 200 feet deep.

 

Many people say, “Well, you know, I'll do this for a month or two, and I'll kind of just do

that for a workshop.” That approach only helps you get some idea of what each thing is.

You still haven’t really done a particular thing until you start to get what its special point

is, after several years. So, you really need to go deep to know something and that is

generally not the approach of most New Age practitioners.

 

My experience has been that the traditional ways were all about getting right to the

central issue of your practice. By going deep, I don't mean reading about it. I mean

doing your practice until it's in your blood and in your bones.

 

Now, in purely intellectual terms, you want to read as widely as possible and apply the

methods you would use for any form of research. However, the great trouble with a lot

of information is that you may not be able to sort out what is the wheat and what is the

chafe, what is relevant and what is minimally tangential. This is a problem with the

masses of information available: often much is not actually grounded in anything

substantial.

 

Another example of this is my experience with Hatha Yoga. Originally, as background

for qigong, I did the 300 postures of Hatha Yoga and a lot of Pranayama. But even

before that I did the Yoga postures simply to become very flexible so I could kick in

martial arts better, do judo better, do ground work and what not, better. In one sense,

learning the 300 hatha yoga postures can be seen as the traditional approach. From the

eclectic view of wanting to know the whole subject of chi, this study was only a piece; it

was not the whole thing.

 

Also, as a Taoist Priest, we went through a great number of subjects. Each one was

leading to the other and we went deeper and deeper and deeper. It wasn't that we just

got a little bit of information on each piece. We really went deep and that is the eclectic

traditional approach.

 

Sometimes to understand something in its entirety, you have to come at it from many

angles until you can see both what is and what is not so. But again I want to say that the

eclectic approach of real traditionalists is not surface knowledge in each of the

approaches. It is an incredible in-depth knowledge in each of the approaches, so that

even if you work and study ten things, you become a “mini-master” in each of those ten

things. You are not just a beginning or intermediate student, you go down your path

picking up whatever possible from wherever available until you really clearly get the

essential point of the particular piece you are studying until you get it, unambiguously

and with no nonsense.

 

It was very main stream in all of China for some people to do only one thing for their

entire life. Others even if they specialize in one thing, want to know what tangentially or

directly connects to and enhances that one thing, or whatever number of things they

really are focusing on. This approach can be very difficult. So, the traditional eclectic

approach in China is that in each and every part of your approach, whatever its

inclusive different components, you would be either virtually at the Master level, not a

casual level. The purpose of all this was to become a super master a Grand Master or

what in China they simply would call a real Master of the subject.

 

link to TTB interview PDF http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/17794-the-tao-bums-interview-with-bruce-frantzis-march-2011/page__view__findpost__p__248803

Edited January 24, 2012 by Mal Stainkey

[Cameron]

Cool. Yes speaking personally I feel after over 4 years of practice my practice has entered my blood and my bones.

 

but it has only really just started-I feel- to move through and purify my organs. Woah that's a wild ride and where all sorts of deep tensions and ego drama comes up.

 

I suspect it will take atleast another 4 years to really get a persective on the organ dissolving. I guess from the Taoist perspevtive it's like "5 shen, meet emptiness, emptiness meet 5 shen". Or perhaps that's a bad explananation. My attempt at being intellectual about it.

[Cameron]

Max himself had a really nice explanation of how the Kunlun moves through the system, gradually purifying everything. It's a shame the old Kunlun board was taken down some real gems there.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Cameron

[zerostao]

Well according to Bruce Frantzis you're supposed to do everything 70%.

 

Or according to the military, 110%.

 

I like a combination of both taking it easy, and surpassing all limits...depending on the result.

 

For some spiritual paths, it's very important to be committed...in those paths, it's the only way to mastery. It would be better to not even start than to be a dabbler.

 

 

depends on what you want, if you wanna be a military marvel go 110%

to have your qi flowing effortlessly and smooth go 5%

[mYTHmAKER]

Well according to Bruce Frantzis you're supposed to do everything 70%.

 

70% in range of movement so you don't hurt yourself. As your movement range increases your 70% increases but is still 70%.

 

I don't think he is using the 70% example when it comes to time and effort put into practice.

Edited January 25, 2012 by mYTHmAKER

[Aetherous]

depends on what you want, if you wanna be a military marvel go 110%

to have your qi flowing effortlessly and smooth go 5%

 

Agreed.

 

I don't think he is using the 70% example when it comes to time and effort put into practice.

 

I do.

[mYTHmAKER]

Agreed.

 

 

 

I do.

 

I don't! so there

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I think we should be more concerned about the point than the 70/110% garbage. do what is right for you.

 

 

what's 70/110? divide them and make that your percentage

 

 

 

 

 

wait, scratch that, i dont think 1.5714285714285714285714285714286% works as well as 5%

[Mal]

If you don't give up, everything's possible with training.

 

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I need to work on doing more pushups!

 

 

 

Hmmm maybe college jsut isnt my thing? I'm inspired to learn more about survival in the wild and just take off and train, y'know?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I'll throw in my 2 cents here that I think dabbling can be all good so long as one does have a primary focus which the dabbling is meant to nourish.

 

Plus, once you build a solid foundation in a particular side of an art, the other sides become far more accessible. I'm sure this applies in martial arts, when you develop the flexibility, speed, and power in one you will advance quickly in any other styles. Though, the body memory of one style can make certain others difficult so there could be drawbacks, but stripping those barriers would also have many benefits.

 

My reference for this comes from music, mainly. Every instrument uses the same scales and melodies, but they are played differently. However, when you figure out how the other instruments work, you can see the limitations of your main instrument and figure out how to incorporate the "wisdom" of other instruments into how you play. Then, of course, learning drums and percussion gives you better timing, while melodic experience allow drummers to play more "musically."

 

That's all within one art form however. I can see how the attention of painting could assist in martial arts, how the physical discipline of martial arts could assist with drumming, how the sensitivity of music could assist with martial arts, and of course the relationships between martial and healing arts.

 

I guess the moral of the story would be that dabbling is good so long as it enhances your main goal rather than distracts and sabotages it. It's good not to be (too) rigid, so opening up to different things is important, imho.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I agree absolutely, since i've been dabbling in all means and mannor of philosophical and spiritual concepts, in my primary pursuit of physical, mental, and spiritual health, they've all recently begun to come together as i increase my practices, inconsistency aside.

 

 

 

And it has nort been until recently that i have been able to observe my progress and it's effects.

 

 

 

I tend to do more dabbling than practicing, but that is a matter of time and teaching, both of which i have very little these days, but in the end, it's all a work in progress, it's not stopping any time soon, or while im alive