The dangers of forced and unnatural breathing pratices

[Jetsun]

The diaphragm was in the classical Greek civilization called 'phrenos'. The term 'phrenos' originally meant: the unity of all the possibilities of man's psychic expression. Thus it is clear: the ancient Greeks knew how the psychic tensions within our bodies can reveal, and can translate themselves, by the physical tensions in the muscle. And in fact we found that all emotional and spiritual expressions in order to manifest, depend upon three basic tensions in the borders of this central muscle - the diaphragm....

 

 

The front part of the diaphragm is free. It embraces the stomach, giving this organ a massage by pushing it gently downwards-backwards towards the spine. The bowels underneath the liver, spleen and stomach are by the movement of this massage also moved downwards. Thus in the pelvis all the organs are co-ordinated by this massage. The rhythm of this movement is changing constantly performing another function as the diaphragm swings, translating our psychic tensions into physical tensions, in order that we all wish and must express may become visible in our movements, and audible in the intonation of our voice

 

To enable the free part of the diaphragm to move the stomach downwards-backwards, the side ribs must stay open when breathing out. So breathing out, these ribs do not change their open attitude and position.

 

When you let the ribs stay open while the breath goes out, and do not contract the outer borders of the diaphragm, the air will be drawn in, and you will have learned: natural breathing. We must give much attention to keeping the diaphragm free from the imposed contractions of wilful, artificial breathing, or by wrong application of yoga-exercises, so often misunderstood by adepts, and even by masters....

 

 

Many institutes announce special methods of stomach-breathing, chest breathing, or teach he expanding of the side ribs when inhaling, and pulling them inwards when breathing out.

 

All these methods ignore the natural breathing according to the structure and functioning of the organs. So the diaphragm takes to artificial breathing. This causes serious degeneration of many organs in the trunk: a wrong co-ordination of the functions of the bowels, of stomach, of heart and of lungs. Thus blocking the natural co-ordination between the trunk and head, thereby upsetting the direct connection and balance between the functions absorbing impressions and the creative process of expression.

 

- Raden Ayou Jodjana A Book of Self Re-Education

(RA Jodjana was a teacher who integrated Javanese teachings with the Sufi teachings of Hazrat Inayat Khan)

[Jetsun]

This is an account of when Gurdjieff met the Sufi master Ekim Bey

 

"Be so kind, Father, and also explain to me what you think of what is called artificial breathing. Believing it useful, I practice it according to the instructions of the yogis, namely after breathing in the air, I hold it for a certain time, and then slowly exhale it. Perhaps this also should not be done?"

 

The Dervish, seeing my attitude towards his words had completely changed, began to be more in sympathy with me and explained the following:

 

"If you harm yourself with your way of chewing food, you will harm yourself a thousand times more by the practice of this breathing. All the exercises in breathing which are given in books and taught in contemporary esoteric schools can do nothing but harm...

 

Without the knowledge of the fundamental laws of breathing in all particulars, the practice of artificial breathing must inevitably lead, very slowly but none the less surely to self destruction.

You should bear in mind that besides substances necessary for the organism, the air contains others which are unnecessary and even harmful. Well then, artificial breathing, that is to say a forced modification of natural breathing, facilitates the penetration into the organism of these numerous substances in the air which are harmful to life, and at the same time upsets the quantitative and qualitative balance of useful substances.

 

Artificial breathing also disturbs the proportion between the amount of food obtained from the air and the amount obtained from other foods. Hence, on increasing and diminishing the intake of air, you must correspondingly increase or diminish the amount of other kinds of food; and to maintain the correct proportion you must have a full understanding of you organism. But do you know yourself so well?...

 

All our organs work mechanically and in each, owing to it's nature and habits, there is created a special tempo of functioning, and the tempos of functioning of different organs are in a definite relation to each other. So there is established in the organism a certain equilibrium: one organ depending on on another - all are connected

 

By artificially changing our breathing, we change first of all the tempo of our lungs, and, as the activity of the lungs is connected, among other things, with the activity of the stomach, the tempo of the functioning of the stomach is also changed, at first slightly and then more and more. For the digestion of food the stomach needs a certain time; let us say that food must remain there an hour. But if the tempo of the stomach's functioning is changed, then the passing of food through the stomach is also changed; the food may pass through so quickly that the stomach only has time to do a part of what it has to do. It is the same with other organs. That is why it is a thousand times better to do nothing with our organism...

 

I repeat, our organism is a very complicated apparatus. It has many organs with processes of different tempos and with different needs. You must either change everything or do nothing. Otherwise instead of good you might do harm. Numerous illnesses arise just from this artificial breathing. In many cases it leads to enlargement of the heart, constriction of the windpipe, or damage to the stomach, liver, kidneys or nerves.

 

If you know every small screw, every little pin of your machine, only then can you know what you must do. But if you just know a little and experiment, you risk a great deal, because the machine is very complicated. There are many tiny screws which might be easily broken by a string shock and which cannot afterwards be bought in any shop.

 

Therefore - since you have asked me for it - my advice to you is: stop your breathing exercises."

 

- G.I. Gurdjieff - Meetings With Remarkable Men - p.188

[Friend]

"We must give much attention to keeping the diaphragm free from the imposed contractions of wilful, artificial breathing..."

 

"We must give much attention to keeping the diaphragm free from the imposed contractions by emotions, mindpatterns, thoughts and reaction to our perception"

[humbleone]

This was posted elsewhere.

 

breathing techniques meets modern science. buteyko claims that much disease is caused by hyperventilation, so it pays to slow down our breathing. Estentially making the case for meditation and breath work.

 

he actually has a simple test which is pretty cool. one can actually use it to measure meditation progress.

 

http://www.normalbreathing.com/learn.php

[orb]

This is an account of when Gurdjieff met the Sufi master Ekim Bey

 

- G.I. Gurdjieff - Meetings With Remarkable Men - p.188

 

You know what's the most interesting part? Although this message is very clear and has been put out long time for a reason nobody understands it. There are all these idiots out there that are convinced that their book or their teacher actually "knows" about breathing and they keep doing it. Only much later they get very sick and they never make the connection to how and why it happened.

[Aetherous]

There is some truth to it...but to say that breathing practice is harmful would be false. The title of this thread is more accurate..."forced and unnatural" breathing is dangerous.

 

On the other hand: unforced and natural breathing is very good.

[Ramon25]

Would anyone know how to integrate performance breathing from scott sonnon and Bruce's water method form of breathing?

[Tom Lin]

So are you guys saying for example that if one just "observes" the breath and not react, analyze, or change the breath while in meditation then it is useful?

[suninmyeyes]

So are you guys saying for example that if one just "observes" the breath and not react, analyze, or change the breath while in meditation then it is useful?

I think it is good to analyze the breath as the breath is directly connected to the mind ,so if you know your breath - you know yourself .

If it is closley observed it is noticable that breath changes with the thought - they are interconnested, this is very fertile area to explore, it has a potential to produce many answers.

 

I have enjoyed reading your posts Jetsun, cheers. I remeber reading that Gurdieff conversation years ago.

[dwai]

There is some truth to it...but to say that breathing practice is harmful would be false. The title of this thread is more accurate..."forced and unnatural" breathing is dangerous.

 

On the other hand: unforced and natural breathing is very good.

 

How about forced and natural? Or unforced and unnatural?

 

Just kidding of course. In classical pranayama, there are many "forced" techniques, example kapalbhati, bhastrika etc. Does this mean they are bad? I think we have to keep in mind that these techniques have worked for over 5000 years. So the important thing is to practice something that is tried and true...quit these new-age type hodgepodges and stick to a "real" tradition (whatever that might be).

 

Moreover, countless practitioners over the ages (my unworthy self included) have used a combination of forced and natural breathing patterns to raise their energies (kundalini) in traditional yogic methods. These aren't techniques just anyone can use. My teacher doesn't teach them to just anyone. There has to be considerable period of time one has to "prepare" to be initiated into these techniques. The body has to be purified with adherence to special dietary regimen, physical "kriyas" need to be performed so certain channels can open up before the techniques are applied. Even in these techniques the ramp up time is long and arduous.

 

One doesn't simply start these "forced" breathing techniques. The pre-requisites are to be able to first breath "soft" cyclically (1:2 breath ratio of inhale-exhale) and the inhalation times are expanded. The glottis has to be effortlessly controlled. Then we start retention.

 

Then again after a long while the retention periods are expanded. Then the student is initiated into techniques like bhastrika and kapalbhati...

Edited January 24, 2012 by dwai

[宁]

How about forced and natural? Or unforced and unnatural?

 

Just kidding of course. In classical pranayama, there are many "forced" techniques, example kapalbhati, bhastrika etc. Does this mean they are bad? I think we have to keep in mind that these techniques have worked for over 5000 years. So the important thing is to practice something that is tried and true...quit these new-age type hodgepodges and stick to a "real" tradition (whatever that might be).

 

Moreover, countless practitioners over the ages (my unworthy self included) have used a combination of forced and natural breathing patterns to raise their energies (kundalini) in traditional yogic methods. These aren't techniques just anyone can use. My teacher doesn't teach them to just anyone. There has to be considerable period of time one has to "prepare" to be initiated into these techniques. The body has to be purified with adherence to special dietary regimen, physical "kriyas" need to be performed so certain channels can open up before the techniques are applied. Even in these techniques the ramp up time is long and arduous.

 

One doesn't simply start these "forced" breathing techniques. The pre-requisites are to be able to first breath "soft" cyclically (1:2 breath ratio of inhale-exhale) and the inhalation times are expanded. The glottis has to be effortlessly controlled. Then we start retention.

 

Then again after a long while the retention periods are expanded. Then the student is initiated into techniques like bhastrika and kapalbhati...

 

 

of course.

however you should not underestimate human stupidity, it can turn a very normal and functional practice into someting extremely hazardous.

[Tom Lin]

I think it is good to analyze the breath as the breath is directly connected to the mind ,so if you know your breath - you know yourself .

If it is closley observed it is noticable that breath changes with the thought - they are interconnested, this is very fertile area to explore, it has a potential to produce many answers.

 

I have enjoyed reading your posts Jetsun, cheers. I remeber reading that Gurdieff conversation years ago.

 

 

Mmm i see.

 

In the past i was doing a breathing exercise which i basically forced myself to do 7 seconds of inhaling and then 3 seconds of silence, then 7 seconds of exhaling and 3 seconds of silence....

 

 

I see now that that is unnatural and bad for the body. So i will just go back to observing and letting my breath be itself.

 

If anyone else has other comments on this that would be great, thanks.

[Birch]

I took my breathing from very high in my chest and relatively fast inhale/exhale and put it lower (abdominal) and slower.

Nothing strenuous on the ribs. No reverse breathing. I do wonder about upper chest stability/strength since I dropped my breathing down. Not that it will show up right away. So I reckon I should go do something about that.

 

I occasionally 'body breathe' or slow all the way down until it's imperceptible. Tends to go with meditation. That just seems to happen itself. There's a funny tickle that curls under the chest when it's slowed all the way down. If you slow way further down then an interesting idea about the act of breathing and life energy comes to mind. Joe Blast would be the breathing goto guy here I think. I don't know what the other yogic techniques are for. Dwai, what are they for?

[dwai]

I took my breathing from very high in my chest and relatively fast inhale/exhale and put it lower (abdominal) and slower.

Nothing strenuous on the ribs. No reverse breathing. I do wonder about upper chest stability/strength since I dropped my breathing down. Not that it will show up right away. So I reckon I should go do something about that.

 

I occasionally 'body breathe' or slow all the way down until it's imperceptible. Tends to go with meditation. That just seems to happen itself. There's a funny tickle that curls under the chest when it's slowed all the way down. If you slow way further down then an interesting idea about the act of breathing and life energy comes to mind. Joe Blast would be the breathing goto guy here I think. I don't know what the other yogic techniques are for. Dwai, what are they for?

 

The techniques I mentioned are intended to raise Kundalini through the central channel. Other peripheral techniques are used as meridian purification techniques or general health maintenance techniques.

[ChiDragon]

Mmm i see.

 

In the past i was doing a breathing exercise which i basically forced myself to do 7 seconds of inhaling and then 3 seconds of silence, then 7 seconds of exhaling and 3 seconds of silence....

 

 

I see now that that is unnatural and bad for the body. So i will just go back to observing and letting my breath be itself.

 

If anyone else has other comments on this that would be great, thanks.

 

Our respiratory system is the best natural breathing system there is. Breathing through the nostrils is the most natural way to breathe. The ideal condition is to breathe deep down toward the abdomen which is called the abdominal breathing.

 

At the beginning of practice breathing, regardless of what kind of breathing problem that one has, by following the Chi Kung breathing method will correct the problem itself.

 

First of all, do not follow any special procedures that you had learned before. Start breathing at your normal pace, and deep down to where you can as your baseline. Your goal is to breathe pass the baseline progressively in time. Before your breath has reached the abdominal, it was considered to be the Micro-orbit. Eventually, your breath will reach the abdomen which was considered that the Chi has been reached down to the dan tian.

 

When the Chi has been reached down to the dan tian, in the Chinese Taoist technical term, it was considered that your channel between the Conception Vessel and Governor Vessel has been cleared. Now, each time an abdominal breathing was performed, the Chi is going through the channel between the two Vessels, it was considered that the Macro-orbit was being performed.

Edited January 26, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Tom Lin]

Our respiratory system is the best natural breathing system there is. Breathing through the nostrils is the most natural way to breathe. The ideal condition is to breathe deep down toward the abdomen which is called the abdominal breathing.

 

At the beginning of practice breathing, regardless of what kind of breathing problem that one has, by following the Chi Kung breathing method will correct the problem itself.

 

First of all, do not follow any special procedures that you had learned before. Start breathing at your normal pace, and deep down to where you can as your baseline. Your goal is to breathe pass the baseline progressively in time. Before your breath has reached the abdominal, it was considered to be the Micro-orbit. Eventually, your breath will reach the abdominal which was considered that the Chi has been reached down to the dan tian.

 

When the Chi has been reached down to the dan tian, in the Chinese Taoist technical term, it was considered that your channel between the Conception Vessel and Governor Vessel has been cleared. Now, each time an abdominal breathing was performed, the Chi is going through the channel between the two Vessels, it was considered that the Macro-orbit was being performed.

 

 

Ok thank you, i will keep breathing through my abdomen and just observe it, not try to control it or nothin'

[Jetsun]

So are you guys saying for example that if one just "observes" the breath and not react, analyze, or change the breath while in meditation then it is useful?

 

I will try to convey the advice R.A. Jodjana gives in her book about "natural breathing", essentially if you are breathing naturally the rise and fall of your diaphragm will massage your internal organs, but for your stomach to move downwards-backwards the side-ribs must stay open on the out breath

 

 

"When you let the ribs stay open while the breath goes out, and do not contract the out borders of the diaphragm, the air will be drawn in, and you will have learned natural breathing"

 

"We should always remember that flowing out , the air finds support in the bottom of the pelvis, and underneath the outer borders of the lungs. The upper-front part of the whole thorax and the mouth stay absolutely free, without any concern about breathing the air."

 

"Let your breath flow out evenly. The coming-in and going out breath will then become united in one movement, like the movement of the waves of the ocean."

 

"We have only to feel and be conscious, that the human breath is in itself a force. Never take a breath, nor hold it while you act. Breath is a gift which we should humbly accept. We receive this gift, leaving our stomach low as we must not grasp at a gift"

 

"You have not consciously accepted this gift and without it you can achieve nothing. How can we make this tremendous change of attitude, and become aware of 'doing not-doing'? What is the outcome of keeping the stomach downwards?"

 

"We should not try to master Prana breathing. Breath is a gift. Prana breathing is the gift of life. We should receive the gift humbly and become consciously aware of it's working. It is important for many reasons throughout your life. At the end of your life it is this movement which will carry us from this life through death into the life after death"

 

 

So my understanding of this is that natural breathing is something hardly any of us do but by practising it by keeping your side-ribs open and stomach downward on the outbreath and receiving the next breath as a gift rather than something that we own or something to be grasped at, it creates natural prana breathing massaging your inner organs while also creating the platform for natural expression and a change of inner attitude.

[Aetherous]

"When you let the ribs stay open while the breath goes out, and do not contract the out borders of the diaphragm, the air will be drawn in, and you will have learned natural breathing"

 

I understand the significance of allowing breaths to come in, or accepting them as a gift, rather than "taking" a breath...but I'm not grasping the importance of letting the ribs stay open during exhales.

 

It's natural that the ribs contract inward with the loss of pressure. Trying to practice it myself doesn't produce good results.

 

Can anyone enlighten me?

[Jetsun]

I understand the significance of allowing breaths to come in, or accepting them as a gift, rather than "taking" a breath...but I'm not grasping the importance of letting the ribs stay open during exhales.

 

It's natural that the ribs contract inward with the loss of pressure. Trying to practice it myself doesn't produce good results.

 

Can anyone enlighten me?

 

I think she is saying that it is not natural for your ribs to contract inwards through the loss of pressure, because when they do it prevents your stomach from properly descending on the outbreath towards the coccyx, so when you breathe out keeping the ribs open it creates a "stomach pit" which facilitates a proper massage of the internal organs.

 

This might help maybe if there is a bad reaction:

 

"What is the outcome of keeping the stomach downward as we await the gift of breath? The diaphragm used to taking the breath in through the nose and mouth may mount rapidly causing a choking feeling. Let the diaphragm jump. Wait awhile, and let us try to understand exactly what made the diaphragm jump and suddenly refuse to perform its movement of massage which causes 'natural' lung breathing, without our interference. This movement being so gentle, we are not even aware of this gift of breath

 

A simple movement will and must take place. The floating ribs will descend towards the back of our hip bones. In this way the sweet breath of Prana will permeate our being"

[Aetherous]

Thanks Jetsun,

 

I think she is saying that it is not natural for your ribs to contract inwards through the loss of pressure, because when they do it prevents your stomach from properly descending on the outbreath towards the coccyx

 

This doesn't make sense...because it is natural for the ribs to contract inwards on the exhale. The stomach isn't supposed to descend on the exhale...that happens on the inhale.

 

Maybe I'm just missing something and not getting it...

[Jetsun]

This doesn't make sense...because it is natural for the ribs to contract inwards on the exhale. The stomach isn't supposed to descend on the exhale...that happens on the inhale.

 

Maybe I'm just missing something and not getting it...

 

It's something i'm still trying to learn and make sense of myself to be honest, the instructions in the book are over many pages so I can only quote the main parts and are set out in poetry style so it might not read as fluently when quoted here.

 

But my understanding is that allowing the stomach to descend on the exhale creates a space in the body or a sort of vacuum which will have to be filled with air once the outbreath is complete, as the air will naturally move in to occupy the space, so it facilitates a natural non-doing inbreath, as opposed to an inbreath which we have to work at.

 

I wonder if babies breathe in this way with their ribs open and stomach down? I know they breath lower down and don't chest breathe.

 

Also she talks about how the stomach descending connects you closer to your centre of gravity on the outbreath and the outbreath is meant to be used for action and expression so connecting to your centre of gravity when breathing out helps with authentic rooted expression of yourself.

[joeblast]

Ah, the myriad intricacies of soft, long, slender, deep...

 

Here we go, imho

 

-I dont believe forced breathing practices are necessarily detrimental - but they are absolutely not meant to be one's main breath strategy. The calm natural (aka buddhist) breath should be one's main breath strategy for all times unless one is intentionally performing another breath strategy. I'm of the opinion that the "inherent danger" comes about from overuse of the yang strategies and under-utilization of yin strategies - which basically reduces the matter to a question of balanced approach and what a given practitioner can "handle." You dont put two heaping tablespoons of habanero into a dish for a good reason - but a dash, just the right amount can make that dish ohhhhhh so tasty (and perhaps help drain sinuses and eustachians too instead of hitting you up with a 4 alarm blaze ) It is similar to the mentions of quick-fire and slow-fire in Taoist Yoga, he says do them in proportion of 3 to 7 because if quick fire if overused it will burn.

 

-"the side ribs must stay open when breathing out" ...sounds like some people misunderstood "open" - i.e. devoid of action, receptive to the flow from other adjacent parts. So leaving the side ribs open as one exhales assists in relieving tension by just letting them go and letting the competing internal vs external pressures balance themselves out and letting the relaaaaaax notion really sink in on exhale. Scotty, I think what you're missing on that is the deep psoas connection - if your breath stays too high and doesnt go deeply enough then that sorta necessitates that little bit of closing motion you're talking about - get the breath deeper, utilize the psoas (and into the perineum) more and then when you do the exhale you'll find that by the time you hit the point you're referring to, you will have way more volume of air already expelled and the additional input from the sides isnt even 'necessary.'

 

A tangent, that's really one thing that makes reverse breathing function well is that good relaxation completing the exhale. In fact one can relax more structures on the reverse exhale since there isnt really any motion that contracts for the exhale whereas there is with natural breathing.

 

That's another reason I've studied the anatomical structures so closely, so that I may be able to speak of these things and be as accurate as possible, given that words are abstractions;

 

So when I see "To enable the free part of the diaphragm to move the stomach downwards-backwards" I complete that sentence by saying "one must relax that middle-free part and utilize the psoas muscle to begin the descending motion of the diaphragm" - this roots the breath and gives it an anchor-point for the resultant wave-motion to propagate forth from. (To me its sorta funny trying to explain these things while at the same time avoiding the psoas muscles - the article dances about talking about many constituent parts but doesnt mention 'em at all!)

 

In that vein I must disagree a bit with the presentation of "We must give much attention to keeping the diaphragm free from the imposed contractions of wilful, artificial breathing..." - I've made huge progress by doing just that - "willful artificial breathing," in a sense - if you want to put it in a paradigm of "Yi-imposed, train-the-innards on proper harmonious motion." Really it is all about proper harmonization of the structures. Thus "We must give much attention to keeping the diaphragm free from the imposed contractions by emotions, mindpatterns, thoughts and reaction to our perception" while similar is saying something with a rather different focus.

 

"We should always remember that flowing out , the air finds support in the bottom of the pelvis, and underneath the outer borders of the lungs. The upper-front part of the whole thorax and the mouth stay absolutely free, without any concern about breathing the air." Yes, this is excellent - finding support at the bottom of the pelvis - one manages to have gotten around mentioning the psoas again but still hits the mark

 

"Let your breath flow out evenly. The coming-in and going out breath will then become united in one movement, like the movement of the waves of the ocean." Also excellent - I've spent time working on abstracting the transitions between inhalation and exhalation - you'll only get your meditation reduced to "one big moment" after you tackle this aspect. Obscure this, then bring your breath below the threshold of turbulence and voila! There is your one big extended moment! (Until of course your mind pops off and goes Hey! Cool! I cant feel any breath! What's that? Shit, I'm thinking again )

 

"Also she talks about how the stomach descending connects you closer to your centre of gravity on the outbreath and the outbreath is meant to be used for action and expression so connecting to your centre of gravity when breathing out helps with authentic rooted expression of yourself." imho, no better anatomical structure relating to authentic rootin tootin expression and the body's center than the psoas! I try to avoid saying stomach unless I am referring to the channel or the anatomical structure. Embryonic Breathing, dantien breathing, all very heavy psoas focus. Back to root! Doing other breathing strategies will cultivate other aspects, kundalini or what have you, but just like it is proper to settle energetic activity with stillness, one needs to balance the usage of yang breath strategies with strategies that return the focus to the root (dantien) - just like moving energy and then going about one's day without closing it, not balancing breath strategies is inviting problems.

 

I have some other thoughts on harmoniousness, but I'll save that for later

[寒月 Hanyue]

Would anyone know how to integrate performance breathing from scott sonnon and Bruce's water method form of breathing?

 

They are two ends of a spectrum at best. They are practiced for different reasons and with different purposes in mind.

 

Sonnon teaches breathing other than his PB (tends to be drawn from the yoga side), though that is the one he has focused upon. He used to teach a range of Russian breathing from ROSS, but synthesised it all down to PB as he found this was the most effective (in his opionion) for conditioning and fighting. If you want to understand PB look at Hanna somatics breathing lessons then go back to Sonnon's PB. In recent years Sonnon has shifted his understanding of the core and how breathing and the spine relate, but the original influence of Hanna's work is still there. This "compressive" breathing is also found in some Daoyin, and Japanese cultivation practices. I first learned it in Koryu training.

 

Bruce's 'method' is also not ONE method, it is in itself a spectrum. It involves several breathing patterns/rhythms, several physical breathing methods as well a progression of subtle/energy breathing methods. Bruce emphasises health, though does also teach methods for conditioning from what I've heard.

 

The main difference is in the use of the bodies natural physiological responses that occur due to breathing patterns, this is an indicator of what the aim or goal of the approach is actually about. Frantzis is after triggering the relaxation response, Sonnon is after improving conditioning in response to triggering the arousal response.

There is also a divergence in understanding of the skeletal involvment and action with the breathing process. This is not too surprising given that nearly everyone I am aware of that goes into this have provided a smorgasboard of varying opinions of what is or is not "natural".

 

I say this only so you know it isn't a case of 'A' breathing method and 'A'(nother) breathing method. Both are very specific perspectives that utilise breathing in very specific ways so as to progress the student towards the aims and goals of the wider system at large.

 

Work with both but plunge their depths and see what you find.

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

This is simply from my experience and what I've been taught,

 

The body naturally breathes in a variety of ways given the fluctuations and demands placed upon it by varying circumstances. "Natural" breathing then is the body breathing appropriately given the changes occuring. This is classic I jing, it is all about 'changes' IME. "Un-natural" or "forced" breathing is when we impose a way to breath on to our body that is NOT appropriate for the changes in circumstance. This can occur both consciously and unconciously due to imbedded trauma/tension/emotions etc.

 

Our bodies learn to adapt and breath a certain way due to the lives we have lived. If we try to impose a breathing pattern/method onto that without fully acknowledging WHERE WE ARE, we may cause ourselves problems. This has been found to be true and has been documented by others, Dennis Lewis is a good source about such things.

 

As for breath work it is always wuwei (natural) and yuwei (prescriptive).

 

Many good breath work teachers teach becoming aware and present to your current breathing as an important first foundational step. Developing this awareness and presence to the breath naturally improves the breathing process without doing anything. Wuwei. This in itself can become a deep and involved practice, especially as you open your presence to more and more of what you can feel going on, and infact there is for most people little reason to practice anything else.

 

Prescriptive breathing is always applying a specific pattern or breathing method. This should be done to address percieved weaknesses. If the weakness is not present it is a waste of time, the wuwei approach is far more beneficial. If a teacher or, through your own awareness (developed above) you find a weakness, then a breathing pattern or method can be used to balance that area.

 

but I'm not grasping the importance of letting the ribs stay open during exhales.

 

It's natural that the ribs contract inward with the loss of pressure.

 

I think she is saying that it is not natural for your ribs to contract inwards through the loss of pressure,

 

This doesn't make sense...because it is natural for the ribs to contract inwards on the exhale.

 

Scotty, based on my experience Jetsun is correct. But I feel it is an easy misunderstanding based around the words "contract inwards". It is not usual for the ribs to be actively contracted ie closed on exhalation in every day to day breathing. The natural position of the ribs is an open one, look at anatomy and good aligned posture. In breathing it is natural for them to return to a a still open position after having been expanded open further when inhaling. So yes it is natural for the ribs to close and move inwards on exhale, but only to return to their original position. It is quite unatural to pull them closed further than this, and is not observed in relaxed people. But yes the more space and free the spine, ribs, organs etc are the more they will move in an easy and relaxed fashion, both opening and closing further.

 

There are many arguments over which cycle (inhale/exhale) should be active and which passive. It really comes down to the fact, that they are both right given the right circumstances (active exhale tends more towards exerting and effort)and the body will choose which on its own if we let it. That said many in cultivation circles emphasise active inhale and a passive exhale as the "natural" breathing, this is because it indicates which physiological functions are 'on' and which are 'off'. As mentioned above, the body actually likes to shift and not be retained to one ALL the time.

 

Some breathing methods, do teach a process of emphasising the open and close past 'natural' ranges in both directions in an attempt to improve the breathing function. Yet the natural breathing function remains well within the ranges of these methods. These are IME inherently dangerous and uneccessary, but can be practiced safely and are not totally without merit. Particularly in martial arts, as they teach you to close the ribs on exhalation to create amouring for the organs. But these are 'prescriptive', you may sit down and do it for 20 minutes or when doing a practice etc but its not how to breath all day.

 

For example, Pavel teaches whole body tension for conditioning exercises, but you're not to maintain it all day long. It is common for people to be taught breathing and for it to be assumed they are meant to breath that way all the time. Same thing happens with skeletal alignments and other things as well. It can be hard to differentiate between the wuwei (24 hours a day) practices and the yuwei prescriptive and re-balancing adjustment exercises as many do not make it clear which they are teaching.

 

Hope this helps and doesn't just add more confusion.

[Aetherous]

Scotty, based on my experience Jetsun is correct. But I feel it is an easy misunderstanding based around the words "contract inwards". It is not usual for the ribs to be actively contracted ie closed on exhalation in every day to day breathing. The natural position of the ribs is an open one, look at anatomy and good aligned posture. In breathing it is natural for them to return to a a still open position after having been expanded open further when inhaling. So yes it is natural for the ribs to close and move inwards on exhale, but only to return to their original position. It is quite unatural to pull them closed further than this, and is not observed in relaxed people. But yes the more space and free the spine, ribs, organs etc are the more they will move in an easy and relaxed fashion, both opening and closing further.

 

Right, by contract I meant return to normal. Not that they tense up.

 

However, the ribs returning to normal is not what was being discussed, as far as I can tell.

 

Scotty, I think what you're missing on that is the deep psoas connection - if your breath stays too high and doesnt go deeply enough then that sorta necessitates that little bit of closing motion you're talking about - get the breath deeper, utilize the psoas (and into the perineum) more and then when you do the exhale you'll find that by the time you hit the point you're referring to, you will have way more volume of air already expelled and the additional input from the sides isnt even 'necessary.'

 

True!

Edited January 27, 2012 by Scotty