The Dao De Jhing is a shamanistic treatise

[flowing hands]

The Dao De Jhing was written approximately 615 BCE. Li Erh was part of a deeply rooted shamanistic cultural. His writings are not philosophy but reflections on a belief system and observations that encompassed all things. The roots of many culture's beliefs still today, like the Lappish race in northern Europe, are steeped in shamanistic culture. IMO if we are to understand and fully appreciate this monumental work, we have to first stand from a different position, a position that rarely is seen from the west and when it is, western overtones are then frequently applied to the understanding. Christian over tones and conditioning's frequently get in the way, from Christian based societies.

 

Here is the basis of discussion; is the DDJ shamanistic or philosophic add your opinion and why?

[Protector]

All the taoist stuff is in the neither category for me

A lot of stories books and stuff can be reused to mean something else and work in a different context it's like... a path

A path is just a path until someone walks on it and it becomes a different experience for different people

[Marblehead]

I disagree with your stating that the TTC is not a philosophic writing. However, I will agree that there are some Shamanistic over- and under-tones within the Chapters of the TTC.

[flowing hands]

I disagree with your stating that the TTC is not a philosophic writing. However, I will agree that there are some Shamanistic over- and under-tones within the Chapters of the TTC.

 

I think you need to validate your reply; how is it philosophical and what parts do you feel are shamanistic and what parts are not?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I agree with the above statements that it can be either.

 

It should also be noted, probably, that most religions are not all that far off from shamanism when their adepts pray to higher powers for health or fortune with degrees of ritual. Even Christianity is very shamanistic in some of its forms if we can see beneath the layers of missionary propaganda that has made it seem so different from every other practice of summoning divine power.

 

Judaism also has elements that could be viewed from a shamanistic standpoint with its prophets and divine interventions.

 

Maybe I'm just turning the tables around on the question, but I think it supports your views as well. All cultures and religions were based in a type of shamanism. Few practices even of the same region are exactly the same in shamanistic cultures yet they all reach the same goals (of power)(not to say all practices aim for the same goals).

 

I guess the main issue is just that practices have been limited for political envelopment by a, perhaps, pseudo-spiritual-shamanistic ruling elite and have drawn imaginary demarcations between "legitimate" vs. "superstitious and evil" practices of interacting with unseen powers. Of course, this has largely been an attempt to disarm political opponents, but that's a whole different topic and discussion.

 

On this discussion, I'll add that the political side of the Dao De Jing seems least applicable to shamanism, though I see how the shamanistic roots bubble up in the dealings with every situation and issue. I see massive amounts of similar ground in the way that Native Americans have so much respect for nature and the gentle approach of the sage in the TTC (ha.. the Tao Te Ching, not the Toronto Transit Commission and it's legion of freemason chauffers.. k. now I'm just getting silly.. too much Chuang Tzu today maybe...

[ChiDragon]

Please...!!! Is this thread necessary...???

Didn't we have the translation done in the Tao Te Ching Section...???

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Please...!!! Is this thread necessary...???

Didn't we have the translation done in the Tao Te Ching Section...???

 

Well, if it doesn't fit your scientist commie-agent agenda, you can always pretend it doesn't exist .

[flowing hands]

Please...!!! Is this thread necessary...???

Didn't we have the translation done in the Tao Te Ching Section...???

 

Well of course!!

Do you really understand the DDJ?

What I would like, is to take people to a different way of looking and then understanding and self realization by how they evaluate the passages from a different perspective. So its up to you, how open is your mind?

[flowing hands]

I agree with the above statements that it can be either.

 

It should also be noted, probably, that most religions are not all that far off from shamanism when their adepts pray to higher powers for health or fortune with degrees of ritual. Even Christianity is very shamanistic in some of its forms if we can see beneath the layers of missionary propaganda that has made it seem so different from every other practice of summoning divine power.

 

Judaism also has elements that could be viewed from a shamanistic standpoint with its prophets and divine interventions.

 

Maybe I'm just turning the tables around on the question, but I think it supports your views as well. All cultures and religions were based in a type of shamanism. Few practices even of the same region are exactly the same in shamanistic cultures yet they all reach the same goals (of power)(not to say all practices aim for the same goals).

 

I guess the main issue is just that practices have been limited for political envelopment by a, perhaps, pseudo-spiritual-shamanistic ruling elite and have drawn imaginary demarcations between "legitimate" vs. "superstitious and evil" practices of interacting with unseen powers. Of course, this has largely been an attempt to disarm political opponents, but that's a whole different topic and discussion.

 

On this discussion, I'll add that the political side of the Dao De Jing seems least applicable to shamanism, though I see how the shamanistic roots bubble up in the dealings with every situation and issue. I see massive amounts of similar ground in the way that Native Americans have so much respect for nature and the gentle approach of the sage in the TTC (ha.. the Tao Te Ching, not the Toronto Transit Commission and it's legion of freemason chauffers.. k. now I'm just getting silly.. too much Chuang Tzu today maybe...

 

Now beleive me or not, many years ago I begged Jesus to come to me. When he came he illuminated a thought that I never consider before. He said to me that he did not like the symbol of the cross used to represent his life. A symbol of torture and pain. He wanted another symbol to signify his life that stood more for what he stood for. He was a shaman also when he was alive.

 

It is the church that has corrupted his teachings and humans who have used his name to do harm to others. Christian, Muslim etc. organised religions purport views of the world that make understanding and realization more difficult. I may call myself Dao but I have no name for what I really am and believe in, therefore I try to view the world from an open vision and an open heart. Therefore to understand the DDJ we need to look at it in a different way to really appreciate what it is really saying. Remember Li Erh said I call it Dao just because I can't think of any better word.

[三江源]

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Edited February 7, 2016 by 三江源

[ChiDragon]

Well of course!!

Do you really understand the DDJ?

What I would like, is to take people to a different way of looking and then understanding and self realization by how they evaluate the passages from a different perspective. So its up to you, how open is your mind?

Yes, I do understand the DDJ. I did begin to study it with an open mind. Indeed, I have reached a conclusion which was reflected by my translations in this section.

[konchog uma]

The Dao De Jhing was written approximately 615 BCE. Li Erh was part of a deeply rooted shamanistic cultural. His writings are not philosophy but reflections on a belief system and observations that encompassed all things. The roots of many culture's beliefs still today, like the Lappish race in northern Europe, are steeped in shamanistic culture. IMO if we are to understand and fully appreciate this monumental work, we have to first stand from a different position, a position that rarely is seen from the west and when it is, western overtones are then frequently applied to the understanding. Christian over tones and conditioning's frequently get in the way, from Christian based societies.

 

Here is the basis of discussion; is the DDJ shamanistic or philosophic add your opinion and why?

 

Hi flowing hands,

 

maybe it would help for the sake of open discussion to define "shamanic" since i am not sure what you mean by it. In my mind shaman is a siberian word meaning spirit healer. Shamans had a tradition as medicine people who were skilled in plant and animal medicine, and could journey through the astral planes, and dream meaningfully and lucidly. They were like the medicine women and men of siberian culture. Lately the word has come to be appropriated by all cultures who have medicine people, and used very generally. I am assuming you mean it in this general sense, the sense of spirit medicine and an inseparable connection with nature. Is that correct? What is your understanding of "shaman"?

 

And i would like to say that i don't think that one has to choose between it being shamanic or philosophic, although shamanism tends to be very right brained, and philosophy very left brained. We each function with both hemispheres (hopefully), and master lao surely used both of them in his writing of the dao de ching. So it seems that it is both, like people have said.

[flowing hands]

Hi flowing hands,

 

maybe it would help for the sake of open discussion to define "shamanic" since i am not sure what you mean by it. In my mind shaman is a siberian word meaning spirit healer. Shamans had a tradition as medicine people who were skilled in plant and animal medicine, and could journey through the astral planes, and dream meaningfully and lucidly. They were like the medicine women and men of siberian culture. Lately the word has come to be appropriated by all cultures who have medicine people, and used very generally. I am assuming you mean it in this general sense, the sense of spirit medicine and an inseparable connection with nature. Is that correct? What is your understanding of "shaman"?

 

And i would like to say that i don't think that one has to choose between it being shamanic or philosophic, although shamanism tends to be very right brained, and philosophy very left brained. We each function with both hemispheres (hopefully), and master lao surely used both of them in his writing of the dao de ching. So it seems that it is both, like people have said.

 

Let me see. What you have stated I agree with, much confusion has come about in the modern age as the 'tools' of the shaman have been taken away from the whole art.

 

A shaman or shamaness, is someone who firstly communicates with the spirits of the spirit world. The connection between living and non-living is indeed very close and the difference very small. All things share in the one, all things are fired by energy, all things are connected whether alive or dead. The passage in Chuang Tzu where the master confronts the shaman shows how each of them can use energy. Li Erh although was not a shaman in the sense that he had an Immortal master, his connection was deep like a shamans, deep into the spirit of all things. He was the incarnation of a great Immortal in 615 bce, so was born with enormous knowledge and realization, so he did not need an Immortal master to teach him. He was enlightened already.

Unlike our friend 'Chi Dragon', although my master has taught me this treatise and I understand it as well as possible, there are still many realizations that come to me frequently when considering the texts. It is written in the text, but realization of the meaning sometimes only occurs when something else stimulates one to think. Therefore, I throw some spanners in the works and hope to help people to think. People like 'chi dragon' have already lost their way, they think they understand by their own words, I doubt this most sincerely. So lets dig and see what we can throw up and bring to the surface some real understandings.

[Marblehead]

I think you need to validate your reply; how is it philosophical and what parts do you feel are shamanistic and what parts are not?

 

Ha! You shall not pull me into that, Sir.

 

It was you who made the unsupported generalized statement. I disagreed with part of your statement. It is your burden to support your generalized statement and when you have done this it will be my place to question the data you use to support your generalized statement.

[flowing hands]

Ha! You shall not pull me into that, Sir.

 

It was you who made the unsupported generalized statement. I disagreed with part of your statement. It is your burden to support your generalized statement and when you have done this it will be my place to question the data you use to support your generalized statement.

 

Well there are not many stanza's that do not speak of the connectivity of material to the spirit. Only some deal with human behavior and if one knows ones ancient history the job of a shaman was to organize people so that society would work well and in harmony with each other. The hub of society was the shaman, so one could site philosophy, but it came from the shaman, one could site politics and wisdom, but it came from the shaman. So if all these things came from the shaman, then Li Erh was recounting the work and wisdom of the shaman.

[Aetherous]

Marblehead,

 

It was you who made the unsupported generalized statement. I disagreed with part of your statement. It is your burden...

 

Actually, disagreeing with a statement is making an "unsupported generalized statement" of your own, which implies that it's also your burden to prove your point.

 

On the other hand, if you simply asked for flowing hands' reasons, then the burden would not be on you.

 

If I can work up the motivation, I can post some chapters and ask the Taoist philosophers here what some of the meanings are...to illustrate that it's not primarily a philosophical work, nor is it something we can understand without access to the oral tradition.

[Marblehead]

Well there are not many stanza's that do not speak of the connectivity of material to the spirit. Only some deal with human behavior and if one knows ones ancient history the job of a shaman was to organize people so that society would work well and in harmony with each other. The hub of society was the shaman, so one could site philosophy, but it came from the shaman, one could site politics and wisdom, but it came from the shaman. So if all these things came from the shaman, then Li Erh was recounting the work and wisdom of the shaman.

 

Excellent counter arguement. I cannot question the source of original thought. I would have leaned more in your direction had I never read Chuang Tzu.

 

I agree that there are places in the TTC that can be said to be Shamanistic. The overwhelming subject matter within the TTC, in my understanding, is political. However, after reading Chuang Tzu I can see much personal (individual) philosophy within the TTC as well. In fact, that is the only reason I hold to the TTC, that is, the TTC is a beautiful guide for one to live their life. For me the other aspects, or leanings, are of little importance.

 

Perhaps you are justified in stating that organized thought originated with the Shaman. My knowledge will not allow me to argue that point. However, I am a firm believer in individual thought, that is, there are those of us who do not need someone else telling us what life is about. We have figured that out to our own individual satisfaction.

[Marblehead]

Marblehead,

 

Actually, disagreeing with a statement is making an "unsupported generalized statement" of your own, which implies that it's also your burden to prove your point.

 

On the other hand, if you simply asked for flowing hands' reasons, then the burden would not be on you.

 

If I can work up the motivation, I can post some chapters and ask the Taoist philosophers here what some of the meanings are...to illustrate that it's not primarily a philosophical work, nor is it something we can understand without access to the oral tradition.

 

Thanks Scotty. I am working toward that. One step at a time. And, of course, I need do it "my way" as that is the only way I can do it efficiently.

 

I am looking forward to a nice, long discussion of this thread that Flowing Hands has taken the time to get started. I think it could be an excellent way to discuss the various aspects of the TTC.

 

I think we all know that my interests are in the philosophic aspects of the TTC. But really, it is the base for religious (which actually goes back to Shamanism) and alchemic Taoism as well, aspects I almost never speak to. I think it would be good if we can speak to these aspects.

[ChiDragon]

 

I think we all know that my interests are in the philosophic aspects of the TTC. But really, it is the base for religious (which actually goes back to Shamanism) and alchemic Taoism as well, aspects I almost never speak to. I think it would be good if we can speak to these aspects.

 

The intention of the DDJ was not for Shamanism, however, people can interpret it anyway they wanted to. I cannot find a chapter that has mentioned Shaman or alchemy. I believe the DDJ has laid out the Taoist philosophy as atheistic. At least, that was the consensus of the highly respectable Chinese scholars.

[Birch]

Moving within. Making the non-visible, visible. Feeling the edges of truth vs lies and knowing how and why any of this is done.

That's TTC for me.

 

Shamanism, can't talk to it quite as much. I think it happens all the time, for good or for ill (see above).

[Marblehead]

The intention of the DDJ was not for Shamanism, however, people can interpret it anyway they wanted to.

 

Agreed.

 

I cannot find a chapter that has mentioned Shaman or alchemy.

 

NO, they are not openly mentioned. But there are words in the TTC that many use to support their religious and alchemic beliefs.

 

I believe the DDJ has laid out the Taoist philosophy as atheistic. At least, that was the consensus of the highly respectable Chinese scholars.

 

Again, I agree. And for me the TTC was a bit too mystical for my tastes, and like I have mentioned before, it wasn't until I read the Chuang Tzu that I was able to bring the philosophy back to earth and appreciate it value.

[Marblehead]

That's TTC for me.

 

Yes -K-, that is the way it is with most of us. We find its value based on our personal needs. Different people have different needs.

[ChiDragon]

NO, they are not openly mentioned. But there are words in the TTC that many use to support their religious and alchemic beliefs.

 

I would like to verify those words; but I need someone to point them out to me.

[Marblehead]

I would like to verify those words; but I need someone to point them out to me.

 

Hehehe. Now you are trying to make me work. We'll see.

 

 

Just had an original thought I will share here instead of starting a new thread:

 

When you have nothing to loose you can be whatever (within the realm of reality) you want to be.

[Marblehead]