The Dao De Jhing is a shamanistic treatise

[Harmonious Emptiness]

....

Its shamanic consciousness (undeniable in some chapters, nonexistent in others), philosophical and cosmological forays, alchemical coding, taiji instructions, etc., however, pale before its main message --

a set of admonitions addressed to the ruler, to the powerful, to the overlord, father of the family or father of the nation. (NOT to the disenfranchised who read this book from an erroneous platform of an illusion of their own power and consequently take to heart what shouldn't concern them. The oppressed human being is a defensive in-denial animal as a default state, always finding ways to identify with the perpetrator instead of feeling like a victim, which would be the only honest and possibly eventually productive but pretty terrifying prospect for most people who have ever been alive in post-shamanic "civilized" times. Hence the fecklessness of the message -- the ruler is not interested, and the ruled is barking up the wrong tree when quoting this or that chapter or passage.)

....

 

 

Though there are many chapters directed to rulers, I think the above statement misses the fact that so much of the Tao Te Ching is advice to every person to follow the ways of nature and thus the ways of the sage. This is not only for those in power. The disenfranchised are also shown how to benefit from their position, and also to see through common impulses to envy the powerful.

 

For example, see chapters 63 and 64:

 

Feng and English translations:

 

Sixty-three

Practice non-action.

Work without doing.

Taste the tasteless.

Magnify the small, increase the few.

Reward bitterness with care.

See simplicity in the complicated.

Achieve greatness in little things.

 

In the universe the difficult things are done as if they are easy.

In the universe great acts are made up of small deeds.

The sage does not attempt anything very big,

And thus achieved greatness.

 

Easy promises make for little trust.

Taking things lightly results in great difficulty.

Because the sage always confronts difficulties,

He never experiences them.

 

Sixty-four

Peace is easily maintained;

Trouble is easily overcome before it starts.

The brittle is easily shattered;

The small is easily scattered.

Deal with it before it happens.

Set things in order before there is confusion.

 

A tree as great as a man's embrace springs up from a small shoot;

A terrace nine stories high begins with a pile of earth;

A journey of a thousand miles starts under one's feet.

 

He who acts defeats his own purpose;

He who grasps loses.

The sage does not act (I think it should be added that this statement ought to be understood in light of wu-wei, or empty-action, meaning "the sage does not act out of egotism"), and so is not defeated.

He does not grasp and therefore does not lose.

 

People usually fail when they are on the verge of success.

So give as much care to the end as to the beginning;

Then there will be no failure.

 

Therefore the sage seeks freedom from desire.

He does not collect precious things.

He learns not to hold on to ideas.

He brings men back to what they have lost.

He help the ten thousand things find their own nature,

But refrains from action.

[dawei]

It is in plain English.

 

You can either interpret the DDJ as a philosophy

 

OR

 

Use it to interpret as dogma or canon for a religion as in the Taoist religion. However, as soon one was used it for religion purposes, the one is in the religion category forever.

 

What I'm saying was that I'm in the philosophy category and you are in the Shamanism category but not both.....!!!!!

 

Do you see the conflicts in thinking between us...???

Except I don't categorize things so black and white... I see room for variation and mixture. I consider myself a 'mutt' since I accept that many manifestations have arisen: I see the 'connection' that can exist. I accept that others see it very black and white and want to compartmentalize themself and others.

 

Don't get so worked up... it's just a discussion.

[flowing hands]

Though there are many chapters directed to rulers, I think the above statement misses the fact that so much of the Tao Te Ching is advice to every person to follow the ways of nature and thus the ways of the sage. This is not only for those in power. The disenfranchised are also shown how to benefit from their position, and also to see through common impulses to envy the powerful.

 

For example, see chapters 63 and 64:

 

Feng and English translations:

 

Sixty-three

Practice non-action.

Work without doing.

Taste the tasteless.

Magnify the small, increase the few.

Reward bitterness with care.

See simplicity in the complicated.

Achieve greatness in little things.

 

In the universe the difficult things are done as if they are easy.

In the universe great acts are made up of small deeds.

The sage does not attempt anything very big,

And thus achieved greatness.

 

Easy promises make for little trust.

Taking things lightly results in great difficulty.

Because the sage always confronts difficulties,

He never experiences them.

 

Sixty-four

Peace is easily maintained;

Trouble is easily overcome before it starts.

The brittle is easily shattered;

The small is easily scattered.

Deal with it before it happens.

Set things in order before there is confusion.

 

A tree as great as a man's embrace springs up from a small shoot;

A terrace nine stories high begins with a pile of earth;

A journey of a thousand miles starts under one's feet.

 

He who acts defeats his own purpose;

He who grasps loses.

The sage does not act (I think it should be added that this statement ought to be understood in light of wu-wei, or empty-action, meaning "the sage does not act out of egotism"), and so is not defeated.

He does not grasp and therefore does not lose.

 

People usually fail when they are on the verge of success.

So give as much care to the end as to the beginning;

Then there will be no failure.

 

Therefore the sage seeks freedom from desire.

He does not collect precious things.

He learns not to hold on to ideas.

He brings men back to what they have lost.

He help the ten thousand things find their own nature,

But refrains from action.

 

 

CHAPTER 63

In the Universe, the Dao and the Ten Thousand Things all flow according to their natures.

The Heavenly bodies move and glow according to how they were formed

Man should take note of this and exercise himself according to their influence,

and then he will be in keeping with the Dao.

By following the flow and entering into emptiness,

practise the ways of doing without doing, influencing without interfering.

For the Heavenly bodies influence our lives, but we can never feel their influence.

The Sage follows the flow and so he practises influence without interfering.

He rewards anger and strife with care and understanding.

He meets aggression with yielding softness.

So he remains at one, unattached and unharmed.

His nature is simple and yielding.

So he never complicates his life.

He never demands too much of the people or life,

and so he does not expect people to fulfil their part.

Too many promises can never be kept.

So, go with the flow of things and all will be well.

When difficulties arise the Sage confronts them, and so he never experiences problems.

 

 

 

CHAPTER 64

If people knew of the ways of nature, and their hearts were simple,

peace would be dear to them.

Trouble can be easily overcome, because their lives are simple,

and so their troubles are simple too.

All things stem from something;

knowing this, trouble can be avoided before it arises.

Because the Sage knows of the ways of nature, he is freed from the bond of desire.

He does not notice gold and jade.

His ideas are open and yielding.

He helps men find themselves when they are lost, and remains at one.

So he leaves the Ten Thousand Things to follow their natural course.

 

Feng and English translation makes some of the meaning obscure.

 

So 63, Li Erh is talking about the natural forces that influence all living things. It is naturalistic understanding from observation. Again wisdom that was noted by shamans, who used their knowledge of natural cycles, natural forces to connect and live in harmony with them and of course use them. The phase of the moon being the most obvious one. Natural forces can be easily observed and then used. Therefore a wise person conducts themselves in a way that preserves life and uses understanding to deal with others. Not interfering means that things have a tendency to follow a natural course and cycle. When a natural cycle is left to run its course, things remain balanced within the process of inter-connectivity of life. Therefore in ruling all things, take no action and everything will go along as it should do. A wise person seeks to understand the way things inter-relate and connect, so they remain detached and do not interfere with the way things are.

[Marblehead]

Lets get our definitions sorted.

 

Shamanism is not a religion as such ...

 

Well, you just offered me the opportunity to know a little bit more about you. Thanks.

 

I actually pretty much agree with what you said in this post.

[Rainy_Day]

Thank you for your compliment. Without going into a big argument, I do see some bias in your written statements. However, when you say Taoism, I don't know if you have 道家 or 道教 in mind. You see most westerners are mixing them up by using just one term "Taoism". To explain Taoism, it would be more explicit to express in Chinese.

 

I remember, I had asked you to translate Chapter 1 in your own words. If you had done so, then it would give me an opportunity to see how you view the DDJ.

 

 

People have to decide either using the DDJ to study the Tao philosophy or use it as dogma to create a Tao religion. It has to be one way or the other but not both.

 

Yes, but I subscribe to the view that the distinction between Daojia and Daojiao is artificial, e.g. Both Zhuangzi and later Daoists (e.g. religious Daoism) shared the same goals of transcendence, even if their techniques were different.

 

I believe this is a common view in western Daoist Studies. There are also some Chinese scholars who agree with this view. (I don't know how mainstream it is.)

 

Have you read "Daoism, an Introduction" by Ronnie L. Littlejohn? I found it to be a most enlightening book.

 

I quote: "One way of thinking about whether to label Daoism as a philosophy or as a religion is to follow the scholar Isabelle Robinet (1997) and consider 'religious Daoism' the practice of 'philosophical Daoism'. A growing repository of new discoveries about ancient Chinese texts, practices and artifacts have led scholars to appreciate more fully the dynamics of change and continuity in Daoist tradition and to conclude that this division between philosophical and religious Daoism is false and without merit. Indeed, to continue to make this distinction will systematically mislead us in our interpretations." (p.2)

 

I also quote: "Daoism is the spiritual tradition at the root of Chinese civilization. It defies characterization as either a philosophy or religion. In fact, while these terms have been used by Western and Chinese scholars alike to understand Daoism, such categorization has regrettably only distorted the tradition, twisted it and perverted it by making it fit into conceptual modes to which it can conform only at the cost of its own destruction. Admittedly, until very recently it was common to speak of 'philosophical Daoism' (daojia) and 'religious Daoism' (daojiao), suggesting that the former was transformed into the latter or replaced by it. Western scholars did not begin this distinction, but the simple fact that Chinese commentators used it does not make it an accurate or productive way of approaching Daoism. Scholars today know things about Daoism and its origin that even the great Chinese thinkers of the past did not know. Some Chinese thinkers even had an interest in altering or reconstructing the Daoist tradition that they received..." (p.1-2)

 

A large part of the book relates to how Laozi and Zhuangzi do in fact relate to the greater Daoist tradition. I highly recommend it.

[ChiDragon]

Rainy_Day...

What I'm getting at is that the people who study the DDJ as a philosophy do not worship any god as the Taoist religion practitioners do.

[Rainy_Day]

Rainy_Day...

What I'm getting at is that the people who study the DDJ as a philosophy do not worship any god as the Taoist religion practitioners do.

 

Yes, but are you sure that the "philosophical" reading of the Daodejing actually came before the "religious" reading? (Each person can, of course, read the text however he wants. I assume the question here is "What is the original meaning of the Daodejing".)

 

In any case, I believe that even a "religious" reading of the Daodejing does not necessarily involve the worship of gods. My personal view is that while the early Daoists believed that gods and spirits exist, their main goal was self-cultivation rather than appeasing or communicating with these spirits.

 

There is a shamanic substrate to the Daodejing, but ultimately the goal of the Daodejing is self-cultivation rather than communicating with spirits.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, but are you sure that the "philosophical" reading of the Daodejing actually came before the "religious" reading? (Each person can, of course, read the text however he wants. I assume the question here is "What is the original meaning of the Daodejing".)

 

In any case, I believe that even a "religious" reading of the Daodejing does not necessarily involve the worship of gods. My personal view is that while the early Daoists believed that gods and spirits exist, their main goal was self-cultivation rather than appeasing or communicating with these spirits.

 

There is a shamanic substrate to the Daodejing, but ultimately the goal of the Daodejing is self-cultivation rather than communicating with spirits.

 

First of all, I still don't know how do you interpret the DDJ. Secondly, in reality, there are Taoist religious practitioners do appeasing or seem to be communicating with these spirits which cannot be ignored in this discussion.

[dawei]

Yes, but I subscribe to the view that the distinction between Daojia and Daojiao is artificial,

A number of members have expressed the same in other similar threads.

 

Yes, but are you sure that the "philosophical" reading of the Daodejing actually came before the "religious" reading?

This is a similar point I've raised in the past: That whether or not one of these came before the other... shamanism, alchemy, and spiritual practice were before both of them. So it is really a meaningless comparison as if there are two horses in a race. It is a tree which has sprouted roots deep, far, and in diverse directions but connect at the truck.

[Protector]

...and I was sitting here under impression that Lao Tzu wrote DDJ without any intention but because someone asked him

[ChiDragon]

...and I was sitting here under impression that Lao Tzu wrote DDJ without any intention but because someone asked him

EXACTLY...How come I never thought of that.....

[Rainy_Day]

First of all, I still don't know how do you interpret the DDJ. Secondly, in reality, there are Taoist religious practitioners do appeasing or seem to be communicating with these spirits which cannot be ignored in this discussion.

 

With respect to Daodejing, I can't really offer any comment at the moment, because I have not sufficiently studied this area. I'm vaguely aware that modern scholars divide the text into several strata, sometimes rearranging the text according to various speculative schemes. I'm also aware that there is an increasingly common view that Neiye preceded Daodejing but spoke on the same issues, and so Daodejing should be interpreted with reference to it. (I have not read Neiye and hence can't comment on it.) There is also a view that Heshanggong's commentary is closer to the original tradition, Wang Bi's "philosophical" commentary arising only after the general culture has forgotten the original mythological context of ancient China...Roughly speaking, this is my view of it.

 

If I have to give an interpretation of Daodejing, I would say I subscribe to Heshanggong's explanation, e.g. longevity and rulership - with the caveat that humans, society, and the universe are constructed along the same model and reflect each other structurally. (I haven't read the Heshanggong commentary. I merely know some descriptions of it from scholarly sources.)

 

Below are my summary of the chapter 1 of the Heshanggong commentary, followed by a rough translation.

 

(1) The Heshanggong commentary begins by defining what is not the Constant Way: the way of management and governance, especially methods derived from the Confucian Classics. Then, it defines what is not the Constant Name: mundane aspirations such as riches and nobility.

(2) The Constant Way refers to non-action. The Constant Name refers to the moment before expression - This in turn implies that one should keep one's light to oneself without revealing it.

(3) The Nameless gives rise to the Named. The Nameless is so called, because it is formless. The Named refers to Heaven and Earth, symbolising dichotomous attributes such as yang and yin, softness and hardness. (Due to the reference to vapour, this explanation is metaphysical (e.g. the actual structure of the world) rather than conceptual (e.g. logical propositions).)

(4) With desire and without desire are methods to observe the Way. (The presupposition here is that the Named and the Nameless form one entity - the Nameless being the root of the Named. By being without desire, one observes the essence of the Way - the oneness from which everything flows. By being with desire, one observes the destination to which everything flows.)

(5) How the world unfolds to us depends on our heart. With desire, however, one perishes, while without desire, one lives.

(6) We receive vapour from Heaven, but each person receives a different endowment of vapour.

(7) The way to arrive at the essence of the Way is to remove desire.

 

*I must say - How the commentary derived (6) and (7) is obscure to me.

 

Heshanggong Commentary and Translation

 

河上公章句卷一

 

体道第一

 

道可道，

 

谓经术政教之道也。

 

The way which can be spoken

 

The way which can be spoken refers to the way of management and governance.

 

非常道。

 

非自然生长之道也。常道当以无为养神，无事安民，含光藏晖，灭迹匿端，不可称道。

 

is not the constant Way

 

E.g. not the way of naturalness and growth. The constant Way is to nourish spirit by leaving off action, to pacify the people by leaving off affairs, to contain one's light and store up one's radiance, and to erase one's tracks and hide one's signs - This Way is so great it cannot be praised or spoken of.

 

名可名，

 

谓富贵尊荣，高世之名也。

 

The name which can be named

 

Name here refers to riches, nobility, respect, and glory - the reputation of towering above the world.

 

非常名。

 

非自然常在之名也。

 

常名当如婴儿之未言，鸡子之未分，明珠在蚌中，美玉处石间，内虽昭昭，外如愚顽。

 

is not the constant name.

 

E.g. not a natural and abiding name.

 

The constant name is like the moment before a baby speaks, or before an egg hatches. It is like a bright pearl within a clam, or a beautiful jade between rocks. Despite the brightness within, it appears foolish and stubborn without.

 

无名，天地之始。

 

无名者谓道，道无形，故不可名也。

 

始者道本也，吐气布化，出于虚无，为天地本始也。

 

The nameless is the beginning of Heaven and Earth.

 

Nameless here means the Way. The Way is formless. Hence, it cannot be named.

 

Beginning means the root of the Way. It exhales, distributes and transforms vapour out of emptiness and nothingness. It is the root and beginning of Heaven and Earth.

 

有名，万物之母。

 

有名谓天地。

 

天地有形位、有阴阳、有柔刚，是其有名也。

 

万物母者，天地含气生万物，长大成熟，如母之养子也。

 

The named is the mother of ten thousand things.

 

Named here means Heaven and Earth.

 

Heaven and Earth have form and place. They are distinguished by yin and yang, and softness and hardness. Hence, they are named.

 

They are the mother of ten thousand things, because they contain vapour to give birth to ten thousand things and cause them to grow and ripe - much like a mother raising her son.

 

故常无欲，以观其妙；

 

妙，要也。

 

人常能无欲，则可以观道之要，要谓一也。

 

一出布名道，赞叙明是非。

 

Hence, in order to observe its wonderfulness, one remains constantly without desire.

 

Wonderfulness here means its essence.

 

If a person can remain constantly without desire, then he can observe the essence of the Way - essence here meaning oneness.

 

From oneness, the way of names is distributed, in order to assist ordering and clarifying right and wrong.

 

常有欲，以观其徼。

 

徼，归也。

 

常有欲之人，可以观世俗之所归趣也。

 

In order to its border, one remains constantly with desire.

 

Border here refers to aim.

 

A person who remains constantly with desire can observe the aim of the world*.

 

*e.g. the ways and desires of common men.

 

此两者，同出而异名，

 

两者，谓有欲无欲也。

 

同出者，同出人心也。而异名者，所名各异也。

 

名无欲者长存，名有欲者亡身也。

 

These two things have the same origin, though they differ in name.

 

The two things refer to being with and without desire.

 

They have the same origin, because they both come from the human heart. They have different names, because they refer to different things.

 

Those things to which "without desire" refers will long be preserved. Those things to which "with desire" refers will perish.

 

同谓之玄，

 

玄，天也。

 

言有欲之人与无欲之人，同受气于天也。

 

The two things are both called "mysterious".

 

Mystery refers to Heaven.

 

This means that people with desire and people without desire both receive vapour from Heaven.

 

玄之又玄，

 

天中复有天也。

 

禀气有厚薄，得中和滋液，则生贤圣，得错乱污辱，则生贪淫也。

 

Mystery upon mystery

 

There is Heaven within Heaven.

 

The endowment of vapour can be thick or thin*. If a person receives a moderate and harmonious, then he becomes a wise man or a sage. If a person receives chaotic filth, then he becomes greedy and excessive*.

 

*e.g. different qualities of vapour.

 

*e.g. excessive sexual desires.

 

众妙之门。

 

能之天中复有天，禀气有厚薄，除情去欲守中和，是谓知道要之门户也。

 

The door of myriad wonderfulness.

 

To understand that there is Heaven within Heaven, and that endowment of vapour comes in different qualities, and then remove emotions and desires in order to guard moderation and harmony, is called the door to knowing the essence of the Way.

[Rainy_Day]

Okay, I found two articles (in Chinese) which touch upon chapter 1 of the Heshanggong commentary. (6) and (7) still remain deeply obscure to me, however.

 

http://www.laozitiandi.com/laozishidu/daojiasixiang/2050.html

http://www.chinataoism.org/showtopic.php?id=9074&cate_id=1106

 

...

 

Found another article about the Heshanggong commentary:

 

http://www.360doc.com/content/11/1105/21/3670961_162090724.shtml

 

This seems most complete. I'll read this and then get back to you.

 

...

 

As for your view that we have to take gods and spirits into the religious explanation of Daodejing, because religious Daoists often do rituals to appease or communicate with gods and spirits, my view is:

 

(1) Religious Daoism does talk about gods and spirits, but these are understood with reference to the main goal of self-cultivation. For instance, in the Shangqing tradition, the body is seen as a microcosm of the world, and those gods and spirits which exist outside of the body have their correspondences within the body. (In this way, the Shangqing tradition and many other forms of Daoism are quite different from Classical Paganism in the West.)

(2) There are some streams of Daoism which are really into communicating with spirits. However, this is preconditioned on the fact that the practitioner has done the work of self-cultivation (e.g. the many forms of Daoist magic which presuppose neidan work).

(3) It is my belief that Laozi, Zhuangzi, and other classical Daoists are about transcendence - including practical cultivation techniques for transcendence - and it is this emphasis on transcendence which marks classical Daoism as religious.

 

...

 

Okay, translating the last part of the commentary on the Heshanggong commentary (third link above; I can't copy and paste for some reason):

 

By "mystery", Laozi meant "Heaven". Both people with and without desire received yin and yang vapour from Heaven.

 

There is Heaven within Heaven. When people receive yin and yang vapour, there are distinctions as to quality. Once they receive the nourishment of centrality and harmony, then they will produce wise and sagely thoughts. If they receive chaotic and filthy vapour, then they will produce greedy and licentious thoughts.

 

If one understands that there is Heaven within Heaven, and that yin and yang vapour may come in different qualities, then one should get rid of excessive emotions and desires and guard the way of centrality and harmony - This is the way to obtain the Way. Here, the commentary refers to centrality and harmony. Centrality and harmony are the main content of the Confucian doctrine of centrality and constancy. "The Doctrine of the Mean" says, "Centrality refers to before the expression of emotions. Harmony refers to hitting the mark when expressed. Centrality is the great root of all under Heaven. Harmony is the most perfect way under Heaven. If one reaches centrality and harmony, then Heaven and Earth are correctly positioned, and ten thousand things are nourished." What this means is...[i actually disagree with her translation here, but whatever]...For Daoists, centrality and harmony also refer to the original qi. "The Method to Harmonise the Three Qi and make Emperors and Kings flourish" of "The Classic of Supreme Peace" says, "Greater yang, greater yin, centrality and harmony are three names for the original qi."

 

Hmm...Well, my view now is that to understand the Heshanggong commentary, one must first understand its metaphysical context. I must say I don't understand it right now.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Rainy_Day

[flowing hands]

I'm afraid the Henshangong just obscures the truth and doesn't add up. It does not make the connection between things. The whole point of the DDJ is to make the connection between the way humans conduct themselves, the Sages part, and understanding the forces and where they come from. With understanding people can live their lives in accordance to the way things are and have evolved.

 

Let me give you a very simplified understanding of the first stanza of the DDJ.

 

Because the way is such an on-going, evolving process that alters its course and its nature accordingly, it is very difficult to say what the way is.

When one tries to name it, it will change through time and become something else.

But the nameless, because we can't describe it or really understand it, we know that it was the mother of all things for it has given birth to all things.

We can though name the the living and non living things around us that it has given birth to.

When we have no desire that is naturally in us, we can begin to sense the great mystery. Here is the reference to spiritual cultivation. When we desire we can see the manifestations of this great energy of creativity. Both come from the way, we can perceive one but the other we can only sense and feel in our hearts. Reference again to spiritual practice.

 

This path of knowing the one but feeling and sensing the other is the beginning of sensing the deep mystery of creativity.

[Rainy_Day]

I'm afraid the Henshangong just obscures the truth and doesn't add up. It does not make the connection between things. The whole point of the DDJ is to make the connection between the way humans conduct themselves, the Sages part, and understanding the forces and where they come from. With understanding people can live their lives in accordance to the way things are and have evolved.

 

Let me give you a very simplified understanding of the first stanza of the DDJ.

 

Because the way is such an on-going, evolving process that alters its course and its nature accordingly, it is very difficult to say what the way is.

When one tries to name it, it will change through time and become something else.

But the nameless, because we can't describe it or really understand it, we know that it was the mother of all things for it has given birth to all things.

We can though name the the living and non living things around us that it has given birth to.

When we have no desire that is naturally in us, we can begin to sense the great mystery. Here is the reference to spiritual cultivation. When we desire we can see the manifestations of this great energy of creativity. Both come from the way, we can perceive one but the other we can only sense and feel in our hearts. Reference again to spiritual practice.

 

This path of knowing the one but feeling and sensing the other is the beginning of sensing the deep mystery of creativity.

 

I believe the problem with my translation is that I'm not familiar with the context of the entire Heshanggong commentary - For instance, I'm not familiar with the cosmological assumptions behind it. The Heshanggong commentary and the Xiang'er commentary have historically been deeply influential within the Daoist religion. Several Daoist studies scholars (who are also initiated practitioners themselves) speak highly of it.

[Rainy_Day]

First of all, I still don't know how do you interpret the DDJ. Secondly, in reality, there are Taoist religious practitioners do appeasing or seem to be communicating with these spirits which cannot be ignored in this discussion.

 

Ah, I see that you and Dawei have already discussed this topic, including the Heshanggong commentary, in depth on another forum.

 

Well, I must say that my level of understanding is way below you two. My background is actually in Confucianism, e.g. the Four Books. My understanding of Classical Daoism is extremely shallow, but I do tend to believe certain Daoist Studies scholars - For me, reading Kristofer Schipper's explanation of Daoism was deeply enlightening.

 

Would you be able to explain why Heshanggong translated "mystery" as "Heaven"?

 

......

 

Okay， I actually found it: Apparently, 《释言》 says 玄，天也。

 

I must say, though, I don't get why Heshanggong used this definition here.

 

愿君不吝赐教！不佞则感激涕零。

Edited January 29, 2012 by Rainy_Day

[baiqi]

No: there is no such thing as a shamanistic treatise.

[dawei]

Okay， I actually found it: Apparently, 《释言》 says 玄，天也。

玄 = Mystery... but also means 'origin'... It was used as a 'loan' for origin.

 

I already know that ChiDragon does not agree with that from past colorful exchange since no dictionary has it and no scholar he prefers mentions it. So you won't find it in a 'book'... drop the books and one will eventually find the meaning.

[Marblehead]

Yes, but are you sure that the "philosophical" reading of the Daodejing actually came before the "religious" reading?

 

That is exactly the question in this thread. Of course, for myself, the "philosophical" came first. Others would say that "Shamanism" came first and many attact the Shaman to the religious development although some do not.

[Marblehead]

 

This path of knowing the one but feeling and sensing the other is the beginning of sensing the deep mystery of creativity.

 

That, BTW, is exactly my understanding.

[Marblehead]

No: there is no such thing as a shamanistic treatise.

 

Hehehe. I laughed, I suppose, because I agree with you.

[三江源]

.

Edited February 7, 2016 by 三江源

[ChiDragon]

Ah, I see that you and Dawei have already discussed this topic, including the Heshanggong commentary, in depth on another forum.

 

Well, I must say that my level of understanding is way below you two. My background is actually in Confucianism, e.g. the Four Books. My understanding of Classical Daoism is extremely shallow, but I do tend to believe certain Daoist Studies scholars - For me, reading Kristofer Schipper's explanation of Daoism was deeply enlightening.

 

Would you be able to explain why Heshanggong translated "mystery" as "Heaven"?

 

......

 

Okay， I actually found it: Apparently, 《释言》 says 玄，天也。

 

I must say, though, I don't get why Heshanggong used this definition here.

 

愿君不吝赐教！不佞则感激涕零。

 

You are being modest....

 

It you can get a hold of the Book: 老子註譯及評介, 陳鼓應著, it would be a very helpful reference source to understand the DDJ. I had it posted somewhere here in the forum. I need to go find it again for you. Maybe someone can help me too.

 

Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, 洪上公 was an legendary figure as a Taoist Priest. He had revised some portion of the DDJ in his favor for the Taoist religion. Also, he interpret the DDJ to fit his needs. IMMHO Any definition by a Taoist(道士) are so esoteric, thus it doesn't have to be make sense to others. In your case, I will have to disregard his definition from a logical and philosophical point of view.

[Rainy_Day]

玄 = Mystery... but also means 'origin'... It was used as a 'loan' for origin.

 

I already know that ChiDragon does not agree with that from past colorful exchange since no dictionary has it and no scholar he prefers mentions it. So you won't find it in a 'book'... drop the books and one will eventually find the meaning.

 

I have decided that my quotation from zdic from 释言 must be mis-attributed, because I looked it up in 尔雅, and it's not there.

 

Apparently, though, the same definition is given in Gao Xiu's commentary to Huainanzi. The Xiang'er commentary also uses Heshanggong's definition.

 

I feel that the problem for me right now is that I'm not familiar with the entire cosmological context of the Heshanggong commentary. Right now, for me to make sense of it:

 

(1) "Heaven within Heaven" must mean that there is a source within the source, e.g. ever-deepening levels as one approaches the essence of the Way (道要).

(2) Something which comes from the deeper part of the source is purer than something which comes from the shallower part of the source.

(3) This accounts for why Heshanggong commented on the different endowment of vapour received by different people.

 

In practical terms, if one is without desire, then one approaches the deeper part of the source. If one is with desire, then one follows the current of the shallower part of the source. Unity and diversity, e.g. Nameless and Named, are ultimately different aspect of the same thing, but the suggestion that vapour arises from the Nameless to create the Named evokes a river imagery for me. The higher up the river you go, the purer it is, even though both the source and its tributaries are the same river.

 

The problem this creates for me is how this definition of "tian" matches up with the "tian" in the identification of the Named with Heaven and Earth. I believe that I have come across this idea before in Rene Guenon's book on Daoism - If "tian" in Heaven and Earth, and in "mystery within mystery" refer to the same thing, then this must mean that Heaven is closer to the source than Earth.

 

Some more articles which tangentially touch upon this passage in the commentary:

 

http://www.chinataoism.org/showtopic.php?id=9074&cate_id=1106

http://www.hudong.com/wiki/%E7%8E%84

http://www.360doc.com/content/11/1227/16/1848158_175362219.shtml

[Rainy_Day]

You are being modest....

 

It you can get a hold of the Book: 老子註譯及評介, 陳鼓應著, it would be a very helpful reference source to understand the DDJ. I had it posted somewhere here in the forum. I need to go find it again for you. Maybe someone can help me too.

 

Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, 洪上公 was an legendary figure as a Taoist Priest. He had revised some portion of the DDJ in his favor for the Taoist religion. Also, he interpret the DDJ to fit his needs. IMMHO Any definition by a Taoist(道士) are so esoteric, thus it doesn't have to be make sense to others. In your case, I will have to disregard his definition from a logical and philosophical point of view.

 

Thanks for the recommendation. I think I've seen this book before, but I just never got down to reading it.

 

Anyway, I feel that I have gotten way off track on this thread, where I should have been working on my current translation of "Questions and Answers". I think though, that in the future, a translation of different commentaries could really add to a Daoist blog or website. (I think Red Pine has done something like that in book form, but it's more a collection of commentarial explanations rather than focusing on one commentary at a time.)