The Dao De Jhing is a shamanistic treatise

[ChiDragon]

"道生一" implies that Dao is the source of everything.

 

If Wang Bi's division is correct, that means Wu and You are the source of everything, making them the same as Dao. But then Laozi just said that "The Name which can be spoken is not the true Name".

 

Whereas with Heshanggong's division, Named and Nameless tie directly into the verse before them. Clearly, Nameless refers to the true Way and the true Name in the first couplet.

Aha....

Wu and You are not the true names because Tao one time is Wu and the another time is You. LaoTze only given a name for the convenience to describe Tao to distinguish the different state of Tao. Thus he called Tao as Tao for the same reason, convinience.

Edited January 30, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

I've been very impressed with Rainy_Day's contributions to our community and I'm very confident that there are great things to come. He does not sound like a newcomer to me but a wise, old soul.

I didn't mean a new comer to the site is a dummy. I still need to pick the mind of this wise old soul....

[dawei]

Would you be able to explain why Heshanggong translated "mystery" as "Heaven"?

In the YiJing it says: "Heaven is XUAN [in color] and Earth is Yellow".

 

But it's not just Xuan as color but as impenetrable or unfathomable as a philosophical meaning, but original/natural as a neigong/alchemy meaning.

 

We should note that the MWD version has Wan Wu (Ten Thousand things) instead of Tian Di (Heaven and Earth). So there was a shift to Tian Di. Maybe we should as why?

 

HSG believed the body was a microcosm of the universe and that he named Chapter 1, "The Embodiment of Dao" seems fitting to his belief system of neigong/alchemy. Heaven does come first in the cosmology of the Tai Yi Sheng Shui but in the Huainanzi it is equally arising.

 

But separating Heaven and Earth is to seem them still as connected. And possibly as the upper dan tian (shen) and the lower dan tian (jing)... sounds familiar to the translation in the other post your doing?

 

I actually agree with the "Wu" and "You" offset of commas and would associate that to Heaven and Earth as well. I think 'Heaven' is used much more loosely under the change from Wan Wu; It is more like universe and earth is the body (embodiment).

 

Getting back to Xuan, specically in neigong/alchemy:

Xuan De = profound natural virtue [the ability to communicate with nature via develop of shen/spirit].

 

Xuan Yuan = mysterious origin = Lower Dan Tian = Jing/fluids = Water

 

Xuan Pin = mysterious female (Ch. 6) = Lower Dan Tian = Qihai point below navel = Water Mother = Lower Dan Tian concealing the Qi to keep the Shen (Spirit).

 

Xuan Pin is the root of Heaven and Earth. It is the place where the Spirit resides the holy embryo is developed. In neigong/alchemy, this is in a place in the middle of the brain, also called the "Gu Shen" (Valley Spirit)...

 

In The Thesis of the Valley Spirit's Immortality, it says:

"What is Xuan? It is Yang and is the Heaven. What is Pin? It is Yin and is the Earth."

 

It goes on to describe the interaction of Yin and Yang and how life arises. Thus, Xuan Pin is the mother of life.

 

Further on it explains the interaction of the Shen in the upper Dan Tian with the Qi in the lower Dan Tian, unifying and harmonizing.

 

-- Those who have Yang's EB book can find an excess of translations and explanations.

Edited January 30, 2012 by dawei

[dawei]

Aha....

Wu and You are not the true names because Tao one time is Wu and the another time is You. LaoTze only given a name for the convenience to describe Tao to distinguish the different state of Tao. Thus he called Tao as Tao for the same reason, convinience.

I am not sure I agree with this bolded part. I think at times we are trying to hard to make Dao (Wu) everything and ignoring the role of "De" in the manifest world (You), for example.

[ChiDragon]

I am not sure I agree with this bolded part. I think at times we are trying to hard to make Dao (Wu) everything and ignoring the role of "De" in the manifest world (You), for example.

The Wu and You were introduced in Chapter one. The De has not yet mentioned in this chapter.

[dawei]

The Wu and You were introduced in Chapter one. The De has not yet mentioned in this chapter.

If something is not mentioned in a chapter, then it does not exist and cannot be used to understand the chapter?

 

Lest we forget: The "De" chapters were first in older manuscripts, and Ch. 1 was added post-Guodian.

 

Best advise is: Get outside of one chapter; get outside of one book; get outside of one way of thinking...

[ChiDragon]

 

Best advise is: Get outside of one chapter; get outside of one book; get outside of one way of thinking...

Yes, and lump everything together....

[dawei]

Yes, and lump everything together....

 

Maybe more like: Open your eyes and mind

[ChiDragon]

Maybe more like: Open your eyes and mind

Yes, dawei......

[dawei]

Yes, dawei......

 

Yes, Steve...

 

Seems you have a new tact to just troll... have your fun when members are actually trying to tell you something of some value and consideration.

[ChiDragon]

Seems you have a new tact to just troll... have your fun when members are actually trying to tell you something of some value and consideration.

Likewise, likewise....

[ChiDragon]

DDJ understands me and that's what important

You are a gentleman and a scholar....

Edited January 31, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Rainy_Day]

I feel that to continue participating in this discussion, I must first make a thorough study of both Heshanggong and Wang Bi's commentaries.

 

Below is Chapter Four of Heshanggong's commentary. I translated as an exercise.

 

Summary:

 

The first part of the chapter describes the Way as being like a cup. Then, it gives practical instructions for imitating the Way. Lastly, it describes the Way as coming before Heaven and Earth - hence lasting longer than all things.

 

*I'm going to get back to the "Questions and Answers" translation as soon as possible.

 

无源第四

 

Chapter Four: Without Origin

 

道冲而用之

 

The Way is like a cup and uses this.

 

冲，中也。

 

"Like a cup" should be understood as "middle".

 

道匿名藏誉，其用在中。

 

The Way hides Its name and stores up Its reputation. The part which functions is the middle.

 

或不盈，

 

At times, it is not full.

 

或，常也。

 

"At times" should be understood as "always".

 

道常谦虚不盈满。

 

The Way is always humble and does not spill over.

 

渊乎似万物之宗。

 

It is deep, as though It is the source of ten thousand things.

 

道渊深不可知，似为万物知宗祖。

 

It is deep and unknowable, as though It were the ancestor of ten thousand things*.

 

*There is quite clearly a typo ("zhi") in the Chinese original.

 

挫其锐，

 

Dull your sharpness.

 

锐，进也。

 

Sharpness here means "to advance".

 

人欲锐精进取功名，当挫止之，法道不自见也。

 

When you have an acute desire to advance in achievement and reputation, you should dull and stop this desire, in order to imitate how the Way does not reveal Itself.

 

解其纷，

 

Untangle your tangles.

 

纷，结恨也。

 

Tangle here means "hatred".

 

当念道无为以解释。

 

To untangle and let go of hatred, you should remember that the Way does nothing (e.g. non-action).

 

和其光，

 

Let your light be gentle.

 

言虽有独见之明，当知闇昧，不当以擢乱人也。

 

This means, even though you are bright enough to have independent views, you should know dimness and should not pull them out to confuse people.

 

同其尘。

 

Make yourself the same as dust.

 

当与众庶同垢尘，不当自别殊。

 

You should be share in the dust of the crowd, rather than to distinguish yourself.

 

湛兮似若存。

 

Clear as though almost existing.

 

言当湛然安静，故能长存不亡。

 

This means, you should be peaceful and quiet like still water. This way you can live long and not perish.

 

*The original meaning of "zhan" is clearness (e.g. of water). I believe that the commentary draws out the fact that still water is clear.

 

吾不知谁之子，

 

I don't know whose son It is.

 

老子言：我不知，道所从生。

 

Laozi means, "I don't know from where the Way arises."

 

象帝之先。

 

It seems to have come before the Lord.

 

道自在天帝之前，此言道乃先天地之生也。

 

The Way of course existed before the Heavenly Lord. Here, this means that the Way existed before Heaven and Earth.

 

至今在者，以能安静湛然，不劳烦欲使人修身法道。

 

As for those who are still here - They are still here because they can be peaceful and quiet like still water, without exhausting themselves over frustrating desires, causing others to cultivate themselves and imitate the Way.

 

*I wonder if there is a typo in the Chinese original with respect to punctuation.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Rainy_Day

[Rainy_Day]

Oh wait, I think I have another commentary on Daodejing at home, and it's a really early commentary. Let me look that up to compare with Heshanggong and Wang Bi.

[dawei]

*I wonder if there is a typo in the Chinese original with respect to punctuation.

I could give the Xiang'er commentary but wonder if we shouldn't move all this discussion to the Chapter 4 discussion area.

 

HSG intentionally divided the Lao Zi into chapters and is one of the first to do so. The Xiang'er appears to follow an ordered text. The Han Fei commentary is more haphazard relative to following a Lao Zi ordered text and older (200 bc) than the HSG (160 bc).

 

I mentioned else where that HSG titled Ch. 1, the Embodiment of Dao... He may of borrowed that from Han Fei since it is prominent in his work.

 

You mentioned that WB appears to 'make stuff up'. I would not put it that way. If you compare his commentary to the received version there are substantial differences. A good read is: A Chinese reading of the Daodejing: Wang Bi's commentary on the Laozi with Critical Text and Translation By Rudolf G. Wagner. He clearly shows that WB follows HSG in many instances where the commentary would suggest otherwise. There is a compelling argument that *someone* forced his text to agree with the HSG in many places, although we have his commentary to see his true thought. Generally, I don't trust the WB.

[flowing hands]

That's a theory I'm familiar with. To my knowledge, no one has any definitive proof, but it does not seem impossible, sure thing.

 

What do you mean by "traditional shaman" -- in what tradition? I have studied shamanism, been exposed to several traditions and initiated into one, they are pretty different... Yes, a shaman can write a book, 'tis true... I read every book by every shaman who cared to write one I could lay my hands on, but it's like an auto mechanic writing a book about the car transmission -- the book does not transmit the spark... or like a candle maker writing a book about all kinds of flames candles can produce but not giving you the matches... catch my drift?

 

This thread appears to have gone way off topic!!

 

'Tradition' meaning it has a long lineage stretching back thousands of years. The head of the lineage is the Immortal master who trains shamans to various stages of skill and knowledge. The spark is given by the Immortal master, although I can transmit and give power and teachings to another person it doesn't mean that they will be automatically taught by any spirit or Immortal master. It is the Immortal master who decides who he or she will teach.

 

I'm taking this back to my original intent as commentaries and other peoples translations are not important, only in the sense that they say different things so can delude or elude to what Li Erh really wrote.

 

Stanza 79

In the affairs of men, know how to conduct yourself.

When men lack honesty and trust, quarrels will occur.

When they occur some resentment and bad feeling remains.

The answer lies in people's hearts.

Know your part and keep your word, then all will be well.

The Sage keeps his word and knows his part,

but does not expect others to fulfil their half.

With virtue a man performs his deed,

but a man without virtue is rigid in his desire for others to act.

Go with the flow and fulfil your part.

The Dao of Heaven is impartial and treats all things equally.

But it remains with good men all the time.

 

Is this just pure philosophy and politics?

[Marblehead]

 

Is this just pure philosophy and politics?

 

Nice translation. It felt nice reading it.

 

What is it? No, not just philosophy or politics. It reaches to the depth of nearly everything we do in life.

 

It speaks to virtue - conducting yourself in a virtuous manner but yet not putting our expectations on others (even though we would like for them to act in a virtuous manner).

 

And yes, I would think that this idea (concept) existed long before Lao Tzu's time, hopefully something the Shamans were teaching their people.

Edited February 1, 2012 by Marblehead

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I think it would be well to note here that shamans fulfill more roles than healing and contacting spirits. If I'm not mistaken, it is often the job of a shaman to instruct people in how to live in harmony with nature, with each other, and with their destinies.

 

This role falls much towards psychotherapists nowadays, but the psychotherapist is trapped in the scientific paradigm more often than not. A priest might be able to fulfill the role better, however they may also be trapped within the paradigm of their learning rather than the inspiration of Spirit and profound spiritual experiences.

 

In this way, the Dao De Jing speaks as a shaman, providing guidance from a spiritual level and showing the way towards a personal harmony with all things. This goes beyond mere philosphy, imo, since philosophy is concerned with logic, while the profound truths of The Way are bigger than logic and cannot be contained in their entirety through logic. Philosophy means "love of truth" but I think it is only concerned with truth that it can understand intellectually.

 

The Dao De Jing understand that there is more which logic cannot explain, and points to the ways in which we can at least be in harmony with these things. To name something is to control it by limiting it to what falls under that name. Some things cannot be named and to name them is only to fool ourselves into thinking we can grasp them when in fact they change and, like the wind, cannot be grasped. So, the Dao De Jing may appear in many ways to be merely philosophy, but it goes well beyond logic as it actually shows how to be in personal contact with The Mystery.

 

(edit: Marblehead, now I see your post, this might be redundant, though I think there's very few people here who don't already know/agree with this)..

Edited January 31, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Marblehead]

 

(edit: Marblehead, now I see your post, this might be redundant, though I think there's very few people here who don't already know/agree with this)..

 

Hehehe. You know me - I sometimes like to state the obvious so that I might appear wise.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Hehehe. You know me - I sometimes like to state the obvious so that I might appear wise.

I hope my comment read correctly -- that we stated the same thing..

 

Well, better to state the obvious than tacitly agree to an obvious falsity through our silence. You know how those shucksters work sometimes..

[flowing hands]

I think it would be well to note here that shamans fulfill more roles than healing and contacting spirits. If I'm not mistaken, it is often the job of a shaman to instruct people in how to live in harmony with nature, with each other, and with their destinies.

 

This role falls much towards psychotherapists nowadays, but the psychotherapist is trapped in the scientific paradigm more often than not. A priest might be able to fulfill the role better, however they may also be trapped within the paradigm of their learning rather than the inspiration of Spirit and profound spiritual experiences.

 

In this way, the Dao De Jing speaks as a shaman, providing guidance from a spiritual level and showing the way towards a personal harmony with all things. This goes beyond mere philosphy, imo, since philosophy is concerned with logic, while the profound truths of The Way are bigger than logic and cannot be contained in their entirety through logic. Philosophy means "love of truth" but I think it is only concerned with truth that it can understand intellectually.

 

The Dao De Jing understand that there is more which logic cannot explain, and points to the ways in which we can at least be in harmony with these things. To name something is to control it by limiting it to what falls under that name. Some things cannot be named and to name them is only to fool ourselves into thinking we can grasp them when in fact they change and, like the wind, cannot be grasped. So, the Dao De Jing may appear in many ways to be merely philosophy, but it goes well beyond logic as it actually shows how to be in personal contact with The Mystery.

 

(edit: Marblehead, now I see your post, this might be redundant, though I think there's very few people here who don't already know/agree with this)..

 

Great post!!

[Marblehead]

I hope my comment read correctly -- that we stated the same thing..

 

Well, better to state the obvious than tacitly agree to an obvious falsity through our silence. You know how those shucksters work sometimes..

 

Yes, we both stated the obvious.

 

I think that neither you nor I have a problem with questioning something we believe might be false information.

[flowing hands]

Here is some information that I obtained directly from Li Erh Xian Shi. It may help to further our understanding.

 

For a start Li Erh was born normally like everyone else, not as the result of a falling star and then remained in his mother's womb for seventy years. That would go against the Tao! He was as I have mentioned before the incarnation of a great Immortal. When he grew up he worked as a keeper of antiquities, which included the writings, artifacts and oral traditions of many Tao masters and shamans. After many years he left this work and at the age of around 85, he decided to live on the mountains and cultivate the Tao. On his journey he passed out of his home district and into another. The border keeper, recognized him as the sage of great wisdom that he had become to be known. The border keeper invited him to stay before he disappeared into the mountains and to write down his thoughts on the Tao. So he stayed with the border keeper for some time and he wrote down over 150 different thoughts on the Tao. Many of these he discarded for one reason or another and by the time he left for the mountain 85 remained. They were written on a type of paper known in those times not on bamboo. Today we only have 81 chapters or stanzas, so what happened to the other four? Well the border keeper somehow lost them or removed four of them because the Chinese are very superstitious about numbers and 9x9= 81 more of a lucky number than 85!!!

 

Li Erh left and found a cave high up on the mountain where lived until he died. His spirit was released from the mortal coil and was met by a host of celestial Immortals, where he was taken to see the Jade Emperor. Now he remains as a top celestial Immortal.

Edited February 2, 2012 by flowing hands

[dawei]

On his journey he passed out of his home district and into another. The border keeper, recognized him as the sage of great wisdom that he had become to be known. The border keeper invited him to stay before he disappeared into the mountains and to write down his thoughts on the Tao. So he stayed with the border keeper for some time and he wrote down over 150 different thoughts on the Tao. Many of these he discarded for one reason or another and by the time he left for the mountain 85 remained.

As stories goes, I have a question on one.

 

When I visted Qing Cheng Shan (青城山) in Sichuan province they said Lao Zi was heading there upon his departure from his homeland and came and waited for the border keeper (maybe 2 years). The border keeper studied the great Way and eventually meet up with Lao Zi there.

 

There are other stories of his going to India, etc.

 

If you know this, can you give some further info on where he went and stayed?

[flowing hands]

As stories goes, I have a question on one.

 

When I visted Qing Cheng Shan (青城山) in Sichuan province they said Lao Zi was heading there upon his departure from his homeland and came and waited for the border keeper (maybe 2 years). The border keeper studied the great Way and eventually meet up with Lao Zi there.

 

There are other stories of his going to India, etc.

 

If you know this, can you give some further info on where he went and stayed?

 

I would have to beg him to come to me again to ask him, but I do know that he did not go to India and the border keeper was a very learned man, who amongst other things liked poetry. At that time the Chinese view was not about aspiring to own a lamborgini, but to become a sage and live a long life. So whatever status you were, one aspired and learnt as much as possible about the Tao and natural wisdom as possible in between whatever you had to do to survive. I do know that it was Loyang that he left and headed westward, so whoever knows their geography can work it out where the Han-ku pass leads to. Mao Shan is the sacred mountain of Tao and of Li Erh, of the 'Three Pure Ones', I don't know again without begging whether this is where he went. By the way I seem to remember someone on this site saying that I was from the Mao Shan sect, I am not.