The Dao De Jhing is a shamanistic treatise

[ChiDragon]

Snowmonki, how do you know that the author (or compiler of teachings) of the Dao De Jing was not a shaman? There are Taoist shamans who merely fix things by being present in a community, making the weather come into balance and various other things. It appears to me that this is the sort of achievement through wu wei that Lao Tzu speaks of quite often throughout the Dao De Jing. There is of course more to shamanism than this approach, but I don't think it can be overlooked in this context.

 

However, these people did not have to actually do anything. Because they were always in harmony with themselves, nature, and the universe, the weather would naturally fall into harmony when they were around. So nature would take it's course, which is to be in harmony amongst harmonious circumstances.

 

Do you want to retract your statement about the weather....???

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Do you want to retract your statement about the weather....???

 

No, it's quite alright as it is.

 

Let me give you a parallel example: someone is feeling sad, someone walks in the room with a sunny disposition and the formerly sad person forgets about their calamity. Did the the sunny person do anything intentionally? I would say no. Did he or she fix the emotional state of the other person? I would say yes, at least for the time being.

 

I think that was clear enough. I'm not seeing the need to take issue with these word choices in this instance exactly.

[ChiDragon]

No, it's quite alright as it is.

 

Let me give you a parallel example: someone is feeling sad, someone walks in the room with a sunny disposition and the formerly sad person forgets about their calamity. Did the the sunny person do anything intentionally? I would say no. Did he or she fix the emotional state of the other person? I would say yes, at least for the time being.

 

I think that was clear enough. I'm not seeing the need to take issue with these word choices in this instance exactly.

Wu Wei has not intention. Any action with intention is not Wu Wei.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

No, it's quite alright as it is.

 

Let me give you a parallel example: someone is feeling sad, someone walks in the room with a sunny disposition and the formerly sad person forgets about their calamity. Did the the sunny person do anything intentionally? I would say no. Did he or she fix the emotional state of the other person? I would say yes, at least for the time being.

 

I think that was clear enough. I'm not seeing the need to take issue with these word choices in this instance exactly.

[ChiDragon]

Intentional...

"making the weather come into balance and various other things."

 

 

Unintentional...

"someone is feeling sad, someone walks in the room with a sunny disposition and the formerly sad person forgets about their calamity."

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Intentional...

"making the weather come into balance and various other things."

 

 

Unintentional...

"someone is feeling sad, someone walks in the room with a sunny disposition and the formerly sad person forgets about their calamity."

 

Ok then, let me spell it out for you a bit further -- the weather reacts to the shaman in the same way as the person reacts to the sunny person, just the way the shaman is effects the way things are around him, as part of his nature of being is a radiant harmony.

 

If you have further issue with this, I would prefer for you to send me a PM about it so as not to clutter this thread, or instead we can continue in the etymology of wu wei thread.

[flowing hands]

Ok then, let me spell it out for you a bit further -- the weather reacts to the shaman in the same way as the person reacts to the sunny person, just the way the shaman is effects the way things are around him, as part of his nature of being is a radiant harmony.

 

If you have further issue with this, I would prefer for you to send me a PM about it so as not to clutter this thread, or instead we can continue in the etymology of wu wei thread.

If I may interject here, being someone who has made it rain when needed, it is not I who has control of the weather, it has control of itself despite me. If a change is needed then only by permission of the Jade Emperor can a change be made. Yu Whang Shun Ti then would respond to a request and if it is indeed needed, he would ask the various disciples to alter the weather. Immortals do not interfere with the weather or the goings on of the earth, only when they really have to. So disasters are natural, they don't interfere. Wu Wei, active non intervention.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I guess I should clarify that by "the weather reacts to the shaman in the same way as the person reacts to the sunny person" I mean in context of a very particular type of shaman that is said to work in this way.

 

I think the way that you describe still exemplifies Wu Wei, however, in that nothing is done out of selfish and egotistical motivation, but rather to preserve harmonious interactions of nature. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is my present perspective.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[flowing hands]

I want to go back to what Snowmunki said about the Dao and the female, an important issue.

Back many thousands of years ago the way was followed by both men and women. Women were seen by their men as the producers and purveyors of true magic!!! They were revered as they had this incredible ability to produce a small infant from nowhere!!!

So women were held in great esteem and so the WU pictogram of a dancing shamaness holding feathers is showing their importance in Dao thought and understanding. This is central to the DDJ and I feel is one of Dawei's main themes that he asked me to name.

We now have two; self and female. Today women across the world are abused by men, sometimes I feel ashamed to be a man to see how badly many men and religion treat our women-folk.

[dawei]

So disasters are natural, they don't interfere. Wu Wei, active non intervention.

I agree in the sense that we are not just passive bystanders to life; we are a part of the arising and unfolding; we participate in life; we are a part of it and 'alert' or 'active' in that sense (or in our senses).

[manitou]

I've been out of touch for several months and have missed out on this thread. I apologize in advance that I didn't take the time to read all of it.

 

I love the basic premise for this discussion. As an individual, I like to say that I'm All of It and None of It. I came up a shamanic route, after left-braining everything else, including Christianity. The shamanic route made this all very real for me. But I also feel comfortable with Taoists as well, or Buddhists - I like to say that Self-REalization is when we finally get to the room where all paths meet.

 

Structure of any kind has heen transcended. There is just the void.

 

Yes, I am absolutely sure that Jesus was a shaman too. I do keep a picture of him, but I have hanging on the frame a beaded feather. I think he learned to move energy so well that he was able to transcend gravity, if indeed such a person really existed and if the tomes can be relied upon as historical documents. Much of shamanism and the essence of Daoism can be found in the words of the J-man. To Love Your Brother as Yourself; this Love that he speaks of is one of the 3 Treasures of the Sage (Yutang translation); the unconditional love of both the sage and the shaman. Readings of the Essene literature verify the shamanic aspects of this culture as well;

 

When the shaman Jesus turned water into wine, if indeed he did, there's no doubt in my mind that he spoke directly to the spirit of the water, the 'water angel' as they mention in Essene literature. I think it merely becomes a question of Awareness - we All have the capability to do exactly as he did, but we are not in Awareness of Who We REally Are. He apparently was - to the point where he felt so comfortable wearing that cloak that he'd step right out of the boat onto the water. My guess is that Moses, if one believes that story as well, had the same capability. The essene literature speaks of many within the cult of Moses that had that ability; the Knowing of Who They Actually Were; not everyone within Moses' group was Aware, they say - but enough of them were to actually make it happen. And according to them, the water didn't Divide, as that would 'be against nature'. Maybe they temporarily froze it, gelled it, or floated an imagined plank bridge across. They stress that the miracles (or energy manipulations) must be congruous with the tendency of nature. The water wouldn't have divided.

 

As a Child. This was another thing he talked about. And this is shamanic as well, or at least the only 'shamanic' mindset that I'm familiar with, which is the Castaneda or Way of the Toltecs. As with the recapitulation that Don Juan Mateus had Castaneda do with his life, so it is for the recovering person who has to work the steps of recovery. What occurs, if the path is followed long enough and sincerely enough, we do become As A Child. We walk with our eyes higher, we choose to address the highest parts of each other, we choose to Love, and most importantly, we cease any judgment at all, if we're lucky

 

The TTC (Yutang) starts one stanza off with 'Between Aah! and Ugh!, how much difference is there?' What this is saying to me is that all perception is relative; that what is 'good' to me is 'bad' to you. There is no good and bad, no good and evil. All just Is. It's when we walk in this haze of Is-ness that the child-like qualities can come to the fore. Even in the Bible, way back in Genesis, I realized the other day that the Adam and Eve story is the story of pre-judgment versus post-judgment. The Knowledge of Good and Evil, that's what the story represents, the apple. Judgment. Perhaps that's the metaphor for the rise of the 10,000 Things of the TTC as well; differentiation and separation from the One. Yeehaw.

 

I do think all things certainly spring from nature; way back in the beginning, when man first crawled out of the cave and noticed the sun, or whatever happened; the absolute connection with nature must certainly have been overriding; nature would have been their only instructor. We've been un-learning ever since. I'm also pretty sure that man didn't figure out how to cook his meat until after a forest fire one day; then he walked by a dead smoking carcass and said to his buddy "Damn! That smells good!"

 

I've also given a lot of thought to the idea of the primal fire as well. I think that after a forest fire and when they first figured out how to capture the flame and keep it alive, this is when society really changed big time. Imagine. All their days were used up with hunting fishing and gathering, and prior to fire their nights were probably spent in a cave huddled together. This is also where their sense of Oneness would occur, from fright of the spooky noises outside the cave. They would all be touching each other, huddled. I can feel the incredible Oneness when my puppy comes up and sits on my lap; it's like a stream of warm energy flowing back and forth from her to me, and I actually feel a magnetic pull sometimes. Imagine how One they would have felt in that dark cave with only the sense of touch to comfort them. Another thing about fire; if they suddenly had fire to keep them warm at night, this probably stimulated conversation. It probably stimulated sex too, lol, because those hairy women would have looked a lot better by firelight. So it seems to follow that more conversation sprang up, the idea of society (and cave painting art) sprang up too. They had more time on their hands, as they could see each other at night.

 

I think that Jesus the shaman (or the Taoist master, in this incident) was practicing wu-wei during his last days. He was doing 'Not-Doing'. Recall that he was in court before Pontius Pilate and maybe one of the Caesars, Maximillian maybe. He was repeatedly asked to say something on his own behalf. He said nothing. HE LET IT ALL PLAY OUT, one day at a time. Wu-wei j He manipulated nothing; but his Awareness was such that he knew that the right thing would happen if he stayed out of the way. Which makes what he was willing to do even more incredible, if there is truth to the tales. (I just don't trust Constantine one bit). Perhaps what he did, if he truly did it, was to unconditionally love so much that it really did move 'heaven and earth' for the rest of us in some sense. Of course, it would. We're all one. We're all here Here and Now; both the ones here now, the ones who have already lived and died, and the ones yet to be born. We're all here. And some of us are called upon to pick up the cloak as well. He showed us how to do it, perhaps.

 

I see it all in the words of Buddha, the words of Jesus, the words of Lao Tzu, the words of Confucius, the tradition of the Toltecs, and also the words of Flowing Hands. The words are hard to come by, that's for sure. It takes years of studying structure (perhaps not essential but I only have my own path to go by), years of meditating so that one can empty one's mind and choose instead no-thought when needed, and years of internal housecleaning so that the child-like state can be reached. The place of no judgment.

 

That's when the Love can shine, when there's no judgment. And then something else takes over; the brain is no longer man's brain, it becomes more of a shining presence within. The Source can be seen in the little black spots in the eyes of men, animals, insects; we truly start to walk in Love and look to nature for our lessons. The time for inputting the words of others comes to an end.

Edited April 25, 2012 by manitou

[flowing hands]

Well I have tried to stimulate some different understandings and view of the DDJ in a different light here, though I think it is lost on some people on this site, but that's true of life anyway. There is a lot to go on this thread that has been touched on but not gone into. If people still want to carry on I will give of my "rudimentary" understanding!!

[Marblehead]

Well I have tried to stimulate some different understandings and view of the DDJ in a different light here, though I think it is lost on some people on this site, but that's true of life anyway. There is a lot to go on this thread that has been touched on but not gone into. If people still want to carry on I will give of my "rudimentary" understanding!!

I think your thread is doing quite well. Granted, I don't nor expect to have much to say to the topic other than what I have already said.

 

And I think it is a good thing that thses type of topics can be openly discussed on this forum.

 

Keep up the good work while understanding that not everyone is going to agree with you.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I think your thread is doing quite well. Granted, I don't nor expect to have much to say to the topic other than what I have already said.

 

And I think it is a good thing that thses type of topics can be openly discussed on this forum.

 

Keep up the good work while understanding that not everyone is going to agree with you.

 

Ah, (no offense) I saw Marblehead posted after Manitou and thought it was just another "nice to have you back" post, lol, so didn't check to read it (great post, Manitou, by the way. Come on Marblehead, you know that's you ).

 

Yes, I am very interested to hear more about Shamanic undertones throughout the Dao De Jhing. Not sure where else we (or I) might get to read such obscured explanations. Very interesting!!

 

In retrospect, I think I personally could have avoided a bit of the tangents by deflecting some misunderstandings via the Private Message function. I'll try that in the future and maybe post the outcome of the discussion in one post approved by both parties. Would be a shame to have the whole topic become unreadable due to pages of unpalatable side clarification.

 

Maybe others would be willing to do a bit of housekeeping in this way to keep the topic easier to follow (+1 is an acceptable response--)?

 

I guess the whole discussion involves mostly side clarification, but we (or I) could try to keep it somewhat succinct in this way.

[Marblehead]

(Come on Marblehead, you know that's you ).

Yeah, I think I mentioned that very early in this thread.

 

However, just because I don't talk about these things doesn't mean that a discussion of these concepts is invalid.

[flowing hands]

In not recognising the spirit in all things, in not seeing the energy that links and binds us all together the DDJ may as well be empty of all wisdom and knowledge. But it isn't, it expounds quite clearly about this and it would not be what it is if it was a simple manual of life, devoid of the very foundation that gives life. For the spirit was there first and only from this spirit did life burst forward in the cycle of change and evolvement. From this spirit and connection, so shamanism was born. It had never left life, but was foresaken for 'Godly' principles and material advancement. The DDJ is shamanism personified; it is the manual of shamanism that we all need to realise the value of life itself and find our own connection, each one of us.

[GrandmasterP]

Earl Hansen retired. Sold the hardware store in St Paul and retired to Florida with Louanne his wife of forty years and fulfilled a lifelong dream of buying a fishng boat.

After a few months he began calling himself Captain Hansen.

Louanne's sister Betty calls up one day and asks.

So Earl's a Captain now is he?

Louanne chuckles and replies...

Betty to me Earl's a Captain, to the kids he's a Captain. But to a Captain.......

[Jeff]

Earl Hansen retired. Sold the hardware store in St Paul and retired to Florida with Louanne his wife of forty years and fulfilled a lifelong dream of buying a fishng boat.

After a few months he began calling himself Captain Hansen.

Louanne's sister Betty calls up one day and asks.

So Earl's a Captain now is he?

Louanne chuckles and replies...

Betty to me Earl's a Captain, to the kids he's a Captain. But to a Captain.......

 

Some people do love to judge...

 

[flowing hands]

Some people do love to judge...

 

 

I don't think its anything unusual!! We all judge it all depends from where and what we see or perceive. Even the Immortals don't judge others, but some feel they are even above them!!!

[GrandmasterP]

OK it's a story.

Shamen tell stories.

Some shamen are trance media. Not a few are illiterate. To a captain Earl may not be a captain but to Earl he's a captain. My clumsy attempted point was and is that TTC may well be a shamanistic text to some shamen . To others it may well not be. Of itself it just IS. The many and varied fascinating and fruitful interpretations arise when individuals read and discuss it. As we are doing here. No one interpretation can be entirely 'right' but every interpretation is equally valid and in no wise invalidates any other. The only paradigm being that with TTC there is no epistemological paradigm. To claim otherwise being an exercise in wistful longing for that which can never exist.

[flowing hands]

OK it's a story.

Shamen tell stories.

Some shamen are trance media. Not a few are illiterate. To a captain Earl may not be a captain but to Earl he's a captain. My clumsy attempted point was and is that TTC may well be a shamanistic text to some shamen . To others it may well not be. Of itself it just IS. The many and varied fascinating and fruitful interpretations arise when individuals read and discuss it. As we are doing here. No one interpretation can be entirely 'right' but every interpretation is equally valid and in no wise invalidates any other. The only paradigm being that with TTC there is no epistemological paradigm. To claim otherwise being an exercise in wistful longing for that which can never exist.

 

To claim that the DDJ was written by many and just a collection of thoughts is a typical western intellectual standpoint. We know that Lao Tzu existed as a person the records show us that. Men and women like me through the many thousands of years have been in 'contact' with Immortals including Lao Tzu. We know that he exists as an Immortal. We all can interpret what Lao Tzu wrote according to our differing perspectives. Thats not to say we are right. What I have given is probably the most accurate English version one could get. Many Chinese words do not have a similar word that conveys the same meaning in English, thats where the difficulty lies. Lao Tzu learn't of the 'way' because he was part of a very rich shamanistic culture when he wrote the DDJ. If you translate the DDJ from a humanist or any other view point you will get a different meaning. If you tranlate it as it was supposed to be written from a deeply reverencial shamanistic culture, then you will get the real meaning. You can toy around all you like with the meaning but you will gain no realisation of any meaning if thats what you want to do. Lao Tzu is a real person, he exists as a spiritual entity. As we all do when we 'die', whether we become an Immortal is the great difference.

 

If Marblehead translated the DDJ, him being a confessed non spiritualist, scientist and general anti religious person, he would translate the entire work according to his view, which I am sure he would say he would (no offence MH!). Thats not to say he dosen't appreciate somebody elses view, but we would not see some very important passages apppear and the whole meaning of those passages completely missed. Some of those passages pointing us to the great meaning behind all life and Immortality. But because MH doesn't do this it would be missed out. So I have given the complete works directly from Lao Tzu without bits missing, from a Daoist point of view and remember Daoism comes from shamanism, from the recognition of the great spirit behind all things.

[GrandmasterP]

Mmmm, OK in a way but well I'm a semi-pro (I get paid for it) Shaman and Trance Medium, have been for many a year past and quite frankly bro this Shaman remains to be convinced by your argument.

It only takes one such for your entire edifice to crumble.

Belief is not knowledge and vice versa.

Your TTC is a Shamanistic text to you, and that's good, absolutely how it should be and unlikely to alter.

But to another Shamn it is not, ergo sum it's validity in this data-capture set is only valid in relation to 50% of Shamen.

Cast our net wider and the stas will alter but you'll never find 100% of Taoist shamen agreeing with you, some of 'em can't read and most of 'em would likely say the same a I am doing that it's un-Taoistic to affirm an ersatz 'holy writ'..

 

To maintain anything beyond that is to surely stray across into the territory of our fundamentalist chums the Xtian literalists' territory or beyond them across the wild border into Taliban country.

Many TTC texts many interpretaions, all equally valid, some more vehemently defended than others.

[GrandmasterP]

And at heart FH you really do know that is true.

Life has other comforts than the cerebral old friend.

Enjoy.

[flowing hands]

Mmmm from me also...............

[flowing hands]

And at heart FH you really do know that is true.

Life has other comforts than the cerebral old friend.

Enjoy.

 

? ...........I don't think you know what you are doing.