The Dao De Jhing is a shamanistic treatise

[Aaron]

and the source of yours, hmmmmm?

 

Your dialogue with Chi is off-topic seeing as this thread is titled "The TTC is a shamanic treatise"

 

Furthermore, since the source of the TTC is not words and I know the source of the TTC, your comment is the height of literalist conceit— not to mention utter hypocrisy (if you know it too).

 

Kindly take this exercise in literalist jargon to the translation section where it belongs.

 

Or are you too full of words over there and you need the space? If so, carry on~ we have plenty of space here.❤

 

Actually they're discussing the veracity of chapters translated by Flowing Hands, so they are staying on topic, or at least as on-topic as anyone else here is.

 

Aaron

[dawei]

We heard some personal disdain about the TTC as shamanistic... so I am not sure we'll see the word-for-word debate care to tie back to the topic. While I don't mind it running a bit in various directions, it would be good to hear the topic discussed.

 

And lest we forget, as many are making this mistake: Flowing Hands has never said he is providing a 'translation' but a TRANSMISSION.

 

---

 

Now.. to get back to topic...

 

http://haquelebac.wordpress.com/2012/06/24/%E6%85%8E%E5%88%B0-shen-dao-text-and-translation/

 

 

The sage in chapter 60, like the Nei Ye sage, is associated with ghosts and spirits, and his benevolence in a well-ruled empire is compared to the hermlessness of ghosts and spirits in good times, but not without acknowledging the fact that sages (like shamans) can do harm too:

 

When the empire is ruled in accordance with the way,

the spirits (gui) lose their potencies (shen);

Or rather, it is not that they lose their potencies,

But that, though they have their potencies, they do not harm the people;

It is not only they who, having their potencies, do not harm the people,

The sage, also, does not harm the people.

 

 

The Sage in high position does not harm (不害) men. In chapter 60 of Laozi it is said that when the Empire follows Dao the spirits 鬼神 do not harm men, nor does the Sage harm men; in Laozi 81, it is said that the Way of Heaven benefits and does not harm. In the Nei Ye chapter of Guanzi (thought to be from the same tradition as Laozi; p. 75, Roth) it is said that the sage is not harmed by men nor vulnerable to others’ harm; sageliness is identified with the vital essence 精, which is manifested in the world as the spirits, and in men as sageliness. (As it happens, buhai 不害 “does not harm” is Shen Buhai’s given name.)

 

These assurances suggest that the Sage historically traces back to intimidating shaman-like figures who were in communication with the unseen world and possessed of spiritual powers, and who were thus capable either of benefit or of harm, though the Daoist sage is purely benevolent.

[dawei]

Another angle is that Shenzi, who pre-dates Lao Zi and which the DDJ borrows and which the commentary on the text mentioned above, portrays the last 'evil' emperor of Xia Dynasty, Jie, compared to the 'virtuous' [sage] Yao. Yao was considered the sage-king who instituted 'rule by virtue'. Jie was 'rule by 'evil'. There may be a historical reference for chapter 60. Yao as a descendant of Huang Di may be of the Shaman line.

[takaaki]

Flowing Hands can dispute what he wants to, but what I know is that if you translate the oldest copy of the Tao Te Ching with the newest copy, the message is still there. Creating a message doesn't mean it's the actual message.

 

Flowing Hand didn't say he created his Chapter 60. He declared categorically that he got it directly from Li Erh (aka LaoTzu). This means all bets are off on every manuscript on the Dao De Jing ever found. If you don't believe him, which is another matter, your discussion with him is over.

 

Taoism can be classified as many things, but I am actually talking about the general philosophical belief, in other words what was expressed by Lao Tzu within the Tao Te Ching.

 

What you are talking about is a form of Taoism that sprang up in the sixties in the west. It has appeal to free-spirited people who resonate to a pure spiritualism that is devoid of ritualism. And the Tao gives you that.

 

Do you think the general Taiwanese or Chinese practitioner would consider Flowing Hand's translation to be accurate?

 

The form of Taoism that defines the cultural life of the general Taiwanese or Chinese practitioner predates your form of Taoism. It is what Flowing Hand is also practising. Naturally, he is their shaman and his word is more than accurate. It's the truth.

 

 

Edited January 15, 2013 by takaaki

[flowing hands]

So flowing hands if the translation was given to you by Lao Tzu does that mean it is the only Dao De Jing congruent with his original teaching? Do you know why he did not also re transmit the original chinese text to a shaman as well as the english version, if currently there is no genuine chinese text of his original script?

 

Ancient pictograms and meanings; some are lost there are no equivilant English words. Although I know some Chinese and meanings, my English is better! The text was for the English speaking world, a world that needs to understand the Dao more than any other.

[flowing hands]

Was the transmission of this teaching to you directly in English? Or was it in Chinese form that was subsequently translated into English as shown in your Chapter 60? If the teaching was given to you in Chinese, could you show me your Chinese text for study?

 

 

 

This is a valid claim. The authenticity of the ancient texts as well as its author is a matter of open debate to this day. Adding to this controversy is the never-ending archeological finds, the last one as recent as 20 years ago, turning up ever older arrangements of these manuscripts. You do have a good argument for creating a reasonable doubt on the integrity of the Chinese writings themselves.

 

 

 

Your success at invalidating the veracity of all the Chinese texts hinges upon the contention that the original Dao De Jing was the work of Li Erh, your immortal master. Here again, you leave us with two choices:

 

1. Accept the Chinese texts associated with Chinese scholars and historians, or

2. Accept the Dao De Jing transmitted to you by Li Erh.

 

And you are asking us to pick No. 2.

 

I am sure there are people here who would go your way if they believe in Li Erh and his version of the Dao De Jing works for them. Magically, the Dao De Jing has become many things to many people and each has drawn from it a different outcome. For you, it is the fate of a shaman. What fate, in your shamanistic view, would befall those who choose No. 1?

 

He chose to teach me in English, therefore the Dao can be expressed more easily to English speaking people. It can be readily understood, although some of the mystery still remains!

[flowing hands]

The original text writen by Li Erh is long gone. He wrote many words he told me and discarded many. He told me he wrote this on 'bamboo slithers' and in the end he was pleased with more than 81 verses. But only 81 remain I think because 81 is a fortunate number; 9x9=81. Many martial art patterns are 81 moves long.

 

Lets put the definition of true shamanism correct. There are no drugs, no altered states by means of drums or dancing. When you beg for the Immortal to come only a sincere heart will alert him to your call. He/she will come to you physically and move you powerfully. You will know when he/she has come. There are no mind games, no way to fool yourself and others. You can't just decide to become a shaman, you are chosen by the Immortal by them coming to you after a period of you showing them your sincere heart and faith. Anything else is plastic shamanism.

[takaaki]

He chose to teach me in English, therefore the Dao can be expressed more easily to English speaking people. It can be readily understood, although some of the mystery still remains!

 

How did he teach you in English? Did he use the English language to teach you and you wrote down what he said as he spoke? Or did you tape-record the teaching sessions and made transcriptions afterwards?

 

Ancient pictograms and meanings; some are lost there are no equivilant English words. Although I know some Chinese and meanings, my English is better! The text was for the English speaking world, a world that needs to understand the Dao more than any other.

 

Why does the English speaking world needs to understand the Dao more than any other?

 

The original text writen by Li Erh is long gone. He wrote many words he told me and discarded many. He told me he wrote this on 'bamboo slithers' and in the end he was pleased with more than 81 verses. But only 81 remain I think because 81 is a fortunate number; 9x9=81. Many martial art patterns are 81 moves long.

 

The Dao De Jing is a fascinating piece of work to me. I first came across it in its translated English form that has become popular to westerners; so naturally, I never saw it as shamanistic in nature, let alone realize that it was the work of a Chinese immortal.

 

The translated English form of the Dao De Jing has great appeal in the English-speaking world today because it gives liberalism a spiritual dimension. A political manifesto based on equality and freedom speak to the nature of the eternal Dao which has become the Earth Mother of environmentalists. Even the atheist has found an acceptable Creator in the godless Dao. Are you saying that Li Erh is not happy with all that and wants to set the English-speaking world right though you?

 

Lets put the definition of true shamanism correct. There are no drugs, no altered states by means of drums or dancing. When you beg for the Immortal to come only a sincere heart will alert him to your call. He/she will come to you physically and move you powerfully. You will know when he/she has come. There are no mind games, no way to fool yourself and others. You can't just decide to become a shaman, you are chosen by the Immortal by them coming to you after a period of you showing them your sincere heart and faith. Anything else is plastic shamanism.

 

What you have described here is not disputed and would be corroborated by the Chinese Daoist priest or shaman who has been performing such rites through the ages. Since you are practising the same form of Daoism as he does, do you feel that the English-speaking world should convert to Daoist shamanism?

Edited January 16, 2013 by takaaki

[flowing hands]

How did he teach you in English? Did he use the English language to teach you and you wrote down what he said as he spoke? Or did you tape-record the teaching sessions and made transcriptions afterwards?

 

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Why does the English speaking world needs to understand the Dao more than any other?

 

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The Dao De Jing is a fascinating piece of work to me. I first came across it in its translated English form that has become popular to westerners; so naturally, I never saw it as shamanistic in nature, let alone realize that it was the work of a Chinese immortal.

 

The translated English form of the Dao De Jing has great appeal in the English-speaking world today because it gives liberalism a spiritual dimension. A political manifesto based on equality and freedom speak to the nature of the eternal Dao which has become the Earth Mother of environmentalists. Even the atheist has found an acceptable Creator in the godless Dao. Are you saying that Li Erh is not happy with all that and wants to set the English-speaking world right though you?

 

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What you have described here is not disputed and would be corroborated by the Chinese Daoist priest or shaman who has been performing such rites through the ages. Since you are practising the same form of Daoism as he does, do you feel that the English-speaking world should convert to Daoist shamanism?

Answer to first question, he told me and I wrote it down. We looked at many english translations to see the expression, he discarded many and used some which he thought was accurate.

 

At the time, and to a certain extent still now, English speaking nations are very rich and powerful. Li Erh's wisdom of harmony and valuing nature, of looking at things as equal was very much needed. Today there are over a million millionaires in China, I think they need to find the way again!

 

When Li Erh came to me, he said that his book was called 'The sacred book of the way and its heart'.

 

No not through me but through self realization. He showed me what is to come of the world, if we were to follow the wise words of Li Erh perhaps this may never happen? You don't have to believe in the spirit world to gain something from the sacred book. It is asking you to live a simple life and to follow nature. One could and should see that the spirit is part of nature. Western intellectuals only see the sacred book as philosophy. It can never be philosophy for it was a spiritual revelation that Li Erh had that showed the great connections in all things.

 

No, the Dao exists in all forms of spirituality that are based on nature and spirit acknowledgement. Although Daoist shamanism is open to anyone whatever race or colour they are, culture can be bridged by these practices. If all peoples believed in nature and our connectivity and valued life as a magical creation we would not need religion or anything else.

[takaaki]

Answer to first question, he told me and I wrote it down. We looked at many english translations to see the expression, he discarded many and used some which he thought was accurate.

 

Amazing! I was wondering why Li Erh would have chosen you, an English-speaking westerner, instead of an English-speaking Chinese Daoist shaman from Hong Kong to bring his teaching to the west. On second thought, you could be the right choice.

 

At the time, and to a certain extent still now, English speaking nations are very rich and powerful. Li Erh's wisdom of harmony and valuing nature, of looking at things as equal was very much needed. Today there are over a million millionaires in China, I think they need to find the way again!

China was the single most powerful economy since Li ErH’s time, some 1500 years before Genghis Khan, right up to the birth of America about two hundred years ago. After that, China went into decline and is still a relatively poor country despite her effort, over the last 30 years, to improve the impoverished condition of her massive population. Millionaires are unfortunate by-products of the struggle for economic well-being of any society.

 

Is being poor the Way of the Dao De Jing?

 

When Li Erh came to me, he said that his book was called 'The sacred book of the way and its heart'.

 

No not through me but through self realization. He showed me what is to come of the world, if we were to follow the wise words of Li Erh perhaps this may never happen? You don't have to believe in the spirit world to gain something from the sacred book. It is asking you to live a simple life and to follow nature. One could and should see that the spirit is part of nature. Western intellectuals only see the sacred book as philosophy. It can never be philosophy for it was a spiritual revelation that Li Erh had that showed the great connections in all things.

 

I don’t think western intellectuals see the Dao De Jing as a book on philosophy. They are attracted to its western-translated worldview which has a spiritual aesthetic. They may think this kind of spiritualism is free of gods and rituals but they are there just the same but in less obvious forms. Walking in the woods and taking in nature is, in essence, a rite of choice. Catholics prefer a prayer session with the rosary.

No, the Dao exists in all forms of spirituality that are based on nature and spirit acknowledgement. Although Daoist shamanism is open to anyone whatever race or colour they are, culture can be bridged by these practices. If all peoples believed in nature and our connectivity and valued life as a magical creation we would not need religion or anything else.

 

So, how do you propose to bring Li Erh’s shamanistic teaching to the west? Did he lay out the game plan or did he just gave you the Dao De Jing in its uncorrupted form and said, “Go forth and teach.”

Edited January 17, 2013 by takaaki

[dynamictao]

After all these years, I only have time to look at this book from a single angle.

 

At least from this angle, the TTC is a clear philosophical work that deals with the same problem as

cited by the Presocratic (Parmenides and Heraclutis) and the Buddha.

 

It is about: How do we deal with our habits of dualistic views, thinking, acting, etc.

There might be other medium, mysticism, in it, since, if we are able to go back to Oneness, we will see the world

in many other forms. But I am not there at all.

[flowing hands]

After all these years, I only have time to look at this book from a single angle.

 

At least from this angle, the TTC is a clear philosophical work that deals with the same problem as

cited by the Presocratic (Parmenides and Heraclutis) and the Buddha.

 

It is about: How do we deal with our habits of dualistic views, thinking, acting, etc.

There might be other medium, mysticism, in it, since, if we are able to go back to Oneness, we will see the world

in many other forms. But I am not there at all.

 

 

To look at the DDJ, one must look at the surrounding culture and trains of thought that existed in the time of Li Erh. Not to do so is to miss the point and then it becomes simply a blinkered perception of western philosophy devoid of all richness and fullness.

[dynamictao]

Agreed. The difficulty is to know what "legends" are true and what legends have been created for a purpose.

Some part of the core truth would transcend time and space -

maybe that is why we feel somewhat connected to the words of Lao-tzu,

although we are far apart in our culture and trains of thought.

[flowing hands]

Agreed. The difficulty is to know what "legends" are true and what legends have been created for a purpose.

Some part of the core truth would transcend time and space -

maybe that is why we feel somewhat connected to the words of Lao-tzu,

although we are far apart in our culture and trains of thought.

 

Thats why I am here giving you what has come through me as the truth. My DDJ is a divine work; it has come directly from Li Erh. Of course you and anyone else are entitled to dispute this, but the truth will be out, as they say.

[xor]

 

Here is the basis of discussion; is the DDJ shamanistic or philosophic add your opinion and why?

I view it as neither and both. It is a deep enough book to be useful for just about anything.

[Mikeb85]

From the Chuang Tzu:

 

In Cheng there was a shaman of the gods named Chi Hsien. He could tell whether men would live or die, survive or perish, be fortunate or unfortunate, live a long time or die young, and he would predict the year, month, week,8 and day as though he were a god himself. When the people of Cheng saw him, they dropped everything and ran out of his way. Lieh Tzu went to see him and was completely intoxicated. Returning, he said to Hu Tzu,9 "I used to think, Master, that your Way was perfect. But now I see there is something even higher!"

Hu Tzu said, "I have already showed you all the outward forms, but I haven't yet showed you the substance-and do you really think you have mastered this Way of mine? There may be a flock of hens but, if there is no rooster, how can they lay fertile eggs? You take what you know of the Way and wave it in the face of the world, expecting to be believed! This is the reason men can see right through you. Try bringing your shaman along next time and letting him get a look at me."

The next day Lieh Tzu brought the shaman to see Hu Tzu. When they had left the room, the shaman said, "I'm so sorry - your master is dying! There's no life left in him - he won't last the week. I saw something very strange-something like wet ashes!"

Lieh Tzu went back into the room, weeping and drenching the collar of his robe with tears, and reported this to Hu. Tzu.

Hu Tzu said, "Just now I appeared to him with the Pattern of Earth - still and silent, nothing moving, nothing standing up. He probably saw in me the Workings of Virtue Closed Off.10 Try bringing him around again."

The next day the two came to see Hu Tzu again, and when they had left the room, the shaman said to Lieh Tzu, "It certainly was lucky that your master met me! He's going to get better - he has all the signs of life! I could see the stirring of what had been closed off!"

Lieh Tzu went in and reported this to Hu Tzu.

Hu Tzu said, "Just now I appeared to him as Heaven and Earth - no name or substance to it, but still the workings, coming up from the heels. He probably saw in me the Workings of the Good One.11 Try bringing him again."

The next day the two came to see Hu Tzu again, and when they had left the room, the shaman said to Lieh Tzu, "Your master is never the same! I have no way to physiognomize him! If he will try to steady himself, then I will come and examine him again."

Lieh Tzu went in and reported this to Hu Tzu.

Hu Tzu said, "Just now I appeared to him as the Great Vastness Where Nothing Wins Out. He probably saw in me the Workings of the Balanced Breaths. Where the swirling waves12 gather there is an abyss; where the still waters gather there is an abyss; where the running waters gather there is an abyss. The abyss has nine names and I have shown him three.13 Try bringing him again."

The next day the two came to see Hu Tzu again, but before the shaman had even come to a halt before Hu Tzu, his wits left him and he fled.

"Run after him!" said Hu Tzu, but though Lieh Tzu ran after him, he could not catch up. Returning, he reported to Hu Tzu, "He's vanished! He's disappeared! I couldn't catch up with him."

Hu Tzu said, "Just now I appeared to him as Not Yet Emerged from My Source. I came at him empty, wriggling and turning, not knowing anything about `who' or `what,' now dipping and bending, now flowing in waves - that's why he ran away."

After this, Lieh Tzu concluded that he had never really begun to learn anything.14 He went home and for three years did not go out. He replaced his wife at the stove, fed the pigs as though he were feeding people, and showed no preferences in the things he did. He got rid of the carving and polishing and returned to plainness, letting his body stand alone like a clod. In the midst of entanglement he remained sealed, and in this oneness he ended his life.

 

A common theme throughout the Taoist classics is the idea that the sage relies on the Tao as opposed to spirits and magic like the shaman. Here, in a classic story from the Chuang Tzu, the sage is clearly elevated to a level above that of the shaman.

 

All the images of the Sage presented by the Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu are not of someone who converses with spirits and practices magic, but rather of someone who, by being in touch with the very nature of the universe (or whatever other analogy you want to use for 'Tao'), can transcend the physical realm without magic or the help of spirits.

 

While Taoism and Shamanic traditions have coexisted and been mixed for millennia, the Taoist classics seem to be anti-shamanic treatises, always elevating the Sage above the Shaman...

[ChiForce]

From the Chuang Tzu:

 

 

A common theme throughout the Taoist classics is the idea that the sage relies on the Tao as opposed to spirits and magic like the shaman. Here, in a classic story from the Chuang Tzu, the sage is clearly elevated to a level above that of the shaman.

 

All the images of the Sage presented by the Tao Te Ching and Chuang Tzu are not of someone who converses with spirits and practices magic, but rather of someone who, by being in touch with the very nature of the universe (or whatever other analogy you want to use for 'Tao'), can transcend the physical realm without magic or the help of spirits.

 

While Taoism and Shamanic traditions have coexisted and been mixed for millennia, the Taoist classics seem to be anti-shamanic treatises, always elevating the Sage above the Shaman...

This is interesting and also, did the Sages ever advocated the use of drugs to enter into some alter mental states????

[Mikeb85]

The Dao De Jhing was written approximately 615 BCE. Li Erh was part of a deeply rooted shamanistic cultural. His writings are not philosophy but reflections on a belief system and observations that encompassed all things. The roots of many culture's beliefs still today, like the Lappish race in northern Europe, are steeped in shamanistic culture. IMO if we are to understand and fully appreciate this monumental work, we have to first stand from a different position, a position that rarely is seen from the west and when it is, western overtones are then frequently applied to the understanding. Christian over tones and conditioning's frequently get in the way, from Christian based societies.

 

Here is the basis of discussion; is the DDJ shamanistic or philosophic add your opinion and why?

 

It's philosophical and mystical (which, depending on who you ask, also qualifies it as religious). It's not shamanistic since it doesn't encourage any communication with spirits, it discourages ritual, and mentions nothing of magic or incantations.

[Mikeb85]

This is interesting and also, did the Sages ever advocated the use of drugs to enter into some alter mental states????

 

Not that I know of. The Taoist texts I've read don't (Tao Te Ching, Chuang Tzu, Lieh Tzu).

[dynamictao]

It is pretty clear that Tao philosophy is an authentic philosophy. It is similar to other discussions of Nonduality, Oneness, Wholeness, Totality, etc. I have been working only on the philosophy side. I have no expertise in its relation to Sharmanism.

 

My book "Tao Te Ching: The Logic of Tao Philosophy" will be published as a Kindle Book at Amazon. I promised the forum that the book will be made free on May 1. You do not need a Kindle to read it. You can use Kindle program on any PC, iPad, to read it. Please go to www.amazon.com, then search for Kindle book with the Title or my name "Wayne L. Wang" to down load the book.

[flowing hands]

It's philosophical and mystical (which, depending on who you ask, also qualifies it as religious). It's not shamanistic since it doesn't encourage any communication with spirits, it discourages ritual, and mentions nothing of magic or incantations.

 

But when you read the DDJ it is about recognizing the life force and the spirit behind all things. A shaman is an expert in knowing energy and seeing that which is unseen to ordinary folks. The Chuang Tzu you quoted is an example of two different levels of energy, though they come from the same source. The shamans in this was only half trained where as the master had already realized his primal force. Sages and shamans in Li Erh's time were mostly the same thing.

[Mikeb85]

But when you read the DDJ it is about recognizing the life force and the spirit behind all things. A shaman is an expert in knowing energy and seeing that which is unseen to ordinary folks. The Chuang Tzu you quoted is an example of two different levels of energy, though they come from the same source. The shamans in this was only half trained where as the master had already realized his primal force. Sages and shamans in Li Erh's time were mostly the same thing.

 

The fact that Taoism explains elements of Shamanism doesn't mean that Shamanism is the Taoist ideal.

 

Taoist philosophy can also explain aspects of Christianity (mysticism), Islam (Sufism), and supernatural phenomena, but it doesn't mean the Tao Te Ching is a Christian or Islamic text.

 

Taoism (and Buddhism for that manner) have always aspired to a higher path than shamanism, even if the 'folk' versions of the religions have incorporated some of those practices... In both cases, Taoism and Buddhism always maintain a connection to a source that is higher than the deities and spirits.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Mikeb85

[flowing hands]

The fact that Taoism explains elements of Shamanism doesn't mean that Shamanism is the Taoist ideal.

 

Taoist philosophy can also explain aspects of Christianity (mysticism), Islam (Sufism), and supernatural phenomena, but it doesn't mean the Tao Te Ching is a Christian or Islamic text.

 

Taoism (and Buddhism for that manner) have always aspired to a higher path than shamanism, even if the 'folk' versions of the religions have incorporated some of those practices... In both cases, Taoism and Buddhism always maintain a connection to a source that is higher than the deities and spirits.

 

Mostly though, sages and Immortals were shamans before they became Immortals, for through the path of shamanism lies true enlightenment and therefore a true understanding of the Dao. There is very little similarities between Christian and other religions, only what western philosophers put on the words of Li Erh and Chuang Tzu etc. Daoism sees the world completely different. Philosophy is about theorizing about how the world could be, or organizing it into some framework, Li Erh talked about the culture and natural observation of what was real in his world. No philosophy there, all deep cultural beliefs held in the fabric of society for thousands of years.

[Mikeb85]

Mostly though, sages and Immortals were shamans before they became Immortals, for through the path of shamanism lies true enlightenment and therefore a true understanding of the Dao. There is very little similarities between Christian and other religions, only what western philosophers put on the words of Li Erh and Chuang Tzu etc. Daoism sees the world completely different. Philosophy is about theorizing about how the world could be, or organizing it into some framework, Li Erh talked about the culture and natural observation of what was real in his world. No philosophy there, all deep cultural beliefs held in the fabric of society for thousands of years.

 

Lao Tzu said nothing about shamanism, there is no reason to believe it's the path he laid forward. He never spoke about communing with spirits, conversing with deities, he spoke against ritual, said nothing of incantations, etc... Lao Tzu also never suggests that altering one's state of consciousness leads to any sort of understanding.

 

And the TTC most definitely is a philosophical work, it makes assertions about the metaphysical nature of things, which is very much in line with philosophy.

 

And again, the fact that some sages may have been shamans before becoming sages, doesn't mean that it's the path to enlightenment any more than being a carpenter is the true path to the Christian Heaven...

 

And there's nothing in the Tao Te Ching or Chuang Tzu about either of these great teachers, or any sages having been shamans. It's merely speculation on your part, and not stated in these works. What is stated, is that a shaman had a lower perception than a Taoist master in the Chuang Tzu.

[flowing hands]

Lao Tzu said nothing about shamanism, there is no reason to believe it's the path he laid forward. He never spoke about communing with spirits, conversing with deities, he spoke against ritual, said nothing of incantations, etc... Lao Tzu also never suggests that altering one's state of consciousness leads to any sort of understanding.

 

And the TTC most definitely is a philosophical work, it makes assertions about the metaphysical nature of things, which is very much in line with philosophy.

 

And again, the fact that some sages may have been shamans before becoming sages, doesn't mean that it's the path to enlightenment any more than being a carpenter is the true path to the Christian Heaven...

 

And there's nothing in the Tao Te Ching or Chuang Tzu about either of these great teachers, or any sages having been shamans. It's merely speculation on your part, and not stated in these works. What is stated, is that a shaman had a lower perception than a Taoist master in the Chuang Tzu.

 

A carpenter could really only know about wood, whereas a shaman knows about the underlying principle of energy and the way of Heaven. Which do you feel is closer to knowing about enlightenment?

 

Li Erh was not a shaman, he is also one of my teachers and has been for 30 years. The reason why I started this thread is to change the western view of the DDJ. As stated it was written in a deeply set culture of mysticism and shamanism, most translators have merely put their regimented and western minds to interpreting the verses.

 

The interconnections between life, energy and the manifest Dao is what Li Erh talked about. Knowing and recognizing these things, which is the same path as shamanism. When one can be at one with the Dao, so one can feel and be in touch with the energy of living and non living things. Li Erh frequently expounds on the underlying principle and its connection and how we should know this. Is this basic teaching not the basis of shamanism?