The Dao De Jhing is a shamanistic treatise

[manitou]

Manifestation is an inside job.

[flowing hands]

 

It's philosophical and mystical (which, depending on who you ask, also qualifies it as religious). It's not shamanistic since it doesn't encourage any communication with spirits, it discourages ritual, and mentions nothing of magic or incantations.

Actually it actively encourages people to be at one with all things, these include spirits which are a natural phenomenon. Because all life contains a 'spirit', it encourages one to feel this; a way that our ancestors could do more readily than we can today.

[Taoist Texts]

. Ancient histories describing the rise of states in the Korean peninsula, and the archaeology of the period—although later than state formation in China—suggest that shamanism is implicated in the organization of Korean states. For example, excavations of royal tombs reveal that the kings and queens of Old Silla (traditional dates 37 BCE to 668 CE) were interred with shamanistic crowns bearing gold antlers and stylized trees sprouting from a gold circlet as prominent symbols of royalty. Historic sources indicate that state rituals of the Goguryeo kingdom (traditional dates 57 BCE to 668 CE) did not merely tolerate shamans, but required their services to mediate disastrous events. A portrait of a woman shaman was painted on a Goguryeo tomb wall,

[opendao]

Lao Tzu said nothing about shamanism, there is no reason to believe it's the path he laid forward.  He never spoke about communing with spirits, conversing with deities, he spoke against ritual, said nothing of incantations, etc...  Lao Tzu also never suggests that altering one's state of consciousness leads to any sort of understanding.  

 

And the TTC most definitely is a philosophical work, it makes assertions about the metaphysical nature of things, which is very much in line with philosophy.  

 

And again, the fact that some sages may have been shamans before becoming sages, doesn't mean that it's the path to enlightenment any more than being a carpenter is the true path to the Christian Heaven...

 

And there's nothing in the Tao Te Ching or Chuang Tzu about either of these great teachers, or any sages having been shamans.  It's merely speculation on your part, and not stated in these works.  What is stated, is that a shaman had a lower perception than a Taoist master in the Chuang Tzu.  

 

my respect. 3 years ago, but nothing has changed.

[Taoist Texts]

Lao Tzu said nothing about shamanism, there is no reason to believe it's the path he laid forward.  He never spoke about communing with spirits, conversing with deities, he spoke against ritual, said nothing of incantations, etc...  Lao Tzu also never suggests that altering one's state of consciousness leads to any sort of understanding.   

 

hehe three years of ignorance and counting;)

 

 

I heard the following statement from Lao Dan:

 

"On the death of the son of Heaven, or of the prince of a state, it is the rule that the officer of prayer should take the tablets from all the other shrines and deposit them in that of the high ancestor, When the wailing was over, and the business (of placing the tablet of the deceased in its shrine) was completed, then every other tablet was restored to its shrine.

 

When a ruler abandoned his state, it was the rule that the Grand minister should take the tablets from all the shrines and follow him. When there was the united sacrifice in the shrine of the high ancestor, the officer of prayer met (and received) the tablets from the four shrines. When they were taken from their shrines or carried back to them all were required to keep out of the way."

 

So said Lao Dan.'

 

 

吾聞諸老聃曰：天子崩，國君薨，則祝取群廟之主而藏諸祖廟，禮也。卒哭成事而後，主各反其廟。君去其國，大宰取群廟之主以從，禮也。祫祭於祖，則祝迎四廟之主。主，出廟入廟必蹕；老聃云。」

[dawei]

. Ancient histories describing the rise of states in the Korean peninsula, and the archaeology of the period—although later than state formation in China—suggest that shamanism is implicated in the organization of Korean states. For example, excavations of royal tombs reveal that the kings and queens of Old Silla (traditional dates 37 BCE to 668 CE) were interred with shamanistic crowns bearing gold antlers and stylized trees sprouting from a gold circlet as prominent symbols of royalty. Historic sources indicate that state rituals of the Goguryeo kingdom (traditional dates 57 BCE to 668 CE) did not merely tolerate shamans, but required their services to mediate disastrous events. A portrait of a woman shaman was painted on a Goguryeo tomb wall,

 

Can you fix the link... not getting anything.

[Taoist Texts]

Can you fix the link... not getting anything.

Sorry no, it seems they removed it

 

 

but same info from other source

 

Shamanism and Priest Rulers During ancient times, the people of Korea practiced various forms of shamanism. These practices continue to this day. Although the word shaman is used in a number of cultural contexts, it is closely connected with northeast Asian and sub-Arctic cultures. Rather than a religion organized around founders, texts, dogmas, or hierarchies of priests, shamanism revolves around individuals (usually female shamans, Korean mudang) who make contact with the spirit world by falling into a trance, by dancing or performing (kut). During the trance, the shaman is possessed by a spirit, or can converse with spirits for the purposes of soothsaying, exorcism, healing, including assisting souls of the deceased on their journey after life, or to address restless souls who might be causing trouble. Shamanism is recorded a number of times throughout

 

Korean history, and it seems to have mingled with elements of Buddhism and Daoism. There is some suggestion that references to “heavenly priests” in ancient times indicate that early kings were also shamans. It is more likely that early kings took on a symbolic role as chief priest, since at the time, there was not the same division of secular and sacred authority that developed later as religious institutions became more formalized. Early kings were often clan heads or patriarchs of a particular descent line. The lineage referred back to a primogenitor, who in ancient times might have been linked to animal powers. The evocation of animal powers is a common feature of shamanistic societies. The presence of symbols such as the tree, antler, and claw on gold crowns found in Silla tombs are linked to the headdresses of Siberian shamans. Crowns Complete gold crowns have been discovered from Silla tombs. The first gold crown was uncovered in 1921. Other tombs were also found to contain gold crowns. The burial mounds consisted of a wooden chamber tomb covered by layers of stone and earth. In addition to gold crowns, the occupants were buried with gold necklaces, girdles, silver ornaments, as well as pottery and glass vessels. The gold crowns are made of sheets of gold, formed into a head band. Rising from the band are uprights in the shape of stylized trees, antlers and/or wings. Embryonic, comma-shaped jades resembling bear or tiger claws are often attached with gold

 

http://education.asianart.org/sites/asianart.org/files/resource-downloads/Temple%20Palace%20Workshop.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowns_of_Silla

 

[dawei]

Interesting about the northeast.   I've read more about the southern barbarians in Chu where the Guodian Laozi comes from.  In K.C. Chang's Art, Myth, and Ritual.  And Cook and Major's Defining Chu.   Mark Edward Lewis in Sanctioned Violence in Early China talks about the Yellow Emperor/Wife and Chi You in relation to shamanism.  This puts it more north.

[Liberius Ultorus]

i think this question is missing the point of Tao. Tao has no classifications. The book has no classifications. It's both and neither, completely beyond labels. To ask the question, or to even see a difference between spirituality and philosophy, is to miss the point and intellectualize tao.

[flowing hands]

Well, Li Erh must have learnt about Dao from somewhere. He was surrounded by a deeply held shamanistic culture. If we examine the texts and the further verses, it is all about our perception and how we can cultivate the Dao within ourselves and recognise it all around us. He talks very much about the 'gateway', that being the portal between mortal and spirit and of when the body dies that the spirit can live on if it has been cultivated. He talks very much about deep mystery and altering our perception through self cultivation and alchemy. This is certainly not a dry old philosophical book, but a book that deals with many aspects of the Dao, but very much from a perspective that the spirit and matter are one and at the same time separate and the interplay between the two is very much what life and the Dao is all about.

 

So in essence a spirited book with many lost meanings on many folks out there, who have only access to dry old untrained translators who do not know about the true techniques of self cultivation and internal alchemy, so they miss the whole point and the real meanings.

 

It is very much a book about shamanism, not in the crude and misconceived way that it is presented by many. It is about the whole way of perception, of spirit, the self and knowing how things have come together and depend on each other. It is about understanding the way and a true shaman/ness will be closer to that than ordinary folks. That's why most Immortals were shamans before they became Immortals.

 

It is the greatest book on true and pure shamanism ever written.

[Marblehead]

 

So in essence a spirited book with many lost meanings on many folks out there, who have only access to dry old untrained translators who do not know about the true techniques of self cultivation and internal alchemy, so they miss the whole point and the real meanings.

 

Yep.  That's me but I'm good with that. 

[awaken]

The Dao De Jhing is a shamanistic treatise？

 

Hahaha....

 

Interesting

 

This is the first time I've heard of shaman.

Edited January 29, 2017 by awaken

[dawei]

The Dao De Jhing is a shamanistic treatise？

 

Hahaha....

 

Interesting

 

This is the first time I've heard of shaman.

 

spoken by a shaman

 

seems a good lesson that without the experience, some things we won't fully know

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I am a Philosophical Taoist but over time I had to agree with flowing Hands to a point.  Where are the roots of Taoism?  That is the question.

[awaken]

Yeah, I am a Philosophical Taoist but over time I had to agree with flowing Hands to a point.  Where are the roots of Taoism?  That is the question.

Chinese culture

[Marblehead]

Chinese culture

 

A passing thought just now - the Chinese were never much into gods or other supernatural powers.  But hey, they needed something.  End result?  Tao.  But Tao is undefinable so don't worry about it.  Back to reality.

[awaken]

A passing thought just now - the Chinese were never much into gods or other supernatural powers. But hey, they needed something. End result? Tao. But Tao is undefinable so don't worry about it. Back to reality.

No, you must have not read 九歌，nine songs

 

Many gods and supernatural powers

 

Jiu Ge

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiu_Ge

 

https://youtu.be/IlkBPOX2u7I

 

 

https://youtu.be/55gOykr_5es

 

 

And this is another god, 女媧補天

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nüwa

 

 

 

And this book ,Classic of Mountains and Seas, 山海經

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classic_of_Mountains_and_Seas

Edited January 30, 2017 by awaken

[Marblehead]

No, you must have not read 九歌，nine songs

 

Many gods and supernatural powers

 

 

No, I don't read stuff like that.  When I first started reading of Taoism I did read some of it but it just felt so freakin' phony to me.

 

It so much reminded me of the Christian Book of Revelations.  Too many drugs ruined their mind.

[awaken]

I thought they are strange, too.

 

But after I cultivate for so many years and know so much about energy world, it is not easy to ignore their wisdom.

 

It is not easy to describe the word of pure energy world.

 

The light world

 

The third eye world

[dawei]

No, you must have not read 九歌，nine songs

 

Many gods and supernatural powers

 

Jiu Ge

 

And it is very interesting that the Guodian Laozi and the Jiu Ge are both from Chu.... in that time, 'chinese' considered them barbarians

[awaken]

And it is very interesting that the Guodian Laozi and the Jiu Ge are both from Chu.... in that time, 'chinese' considered them barbarians

There is not much "pure" Chinese now, ha.

 

A lot of war

 

Everything mixed together

 

山海經 is not only from chu, right?

 

女媧 is "pure" Chinese, ha.

[dawei]

山海經 is not only from chu, right?

 

女媧 is "pure" Chinese, ha.

 

Didn't know about 山海經 origins... some say Yu the Great but he is not from Chu... well, from my memory of reading fable.    Most of the rulers of the Yellow River basin are from the western frontiers...  earliest migrations of pre-Xia... and the Xia... the Shang... the Zhou... and Qin.  All Westerners.

 

Nuwa (and her brother-husband Fuxi) are pre-chinese...  they are neolithic arising stage... if they existed... or just in the minds of folks who gazed upward to see heaven and lowered their heads to see the earth...      but Nuwa and Fuxi's energy can still be felt today...

[awaken]

Didn't know about 山海經 origins... some say Yu the Great but he is not from Chu... well, from my memory of reading fable. Most of the rulers of the Yellow River basin are from the western frontiers... earliest migrations of pre-Xia... and the Xia... the Shang... the Zhou... and Qin. All Westerners.

 

Nuwa (and her brother-husband Fuxi) are pre-chinese... they are neolithic arising stage... if they existed... or just in the minds of folks who gazed upward to see heaven and lowered their heads to see the earth... but Nuwa and Fuxi's energy can still be felt today...

Not westerns.

 

They are all from 中國，central country.

 

Let's see the map of Shan 商朝

 

It is not in the west

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shang_dynasty

Edited January 31, 2017 by awaken

[dawei]

Not westerns.

 

They are all from 中國，central country.

 

Let's see the map of Shan 商朝

 

It is not in the west

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shang_dynasty

 

Central country is generously sized even by Shang times... but if you look up their origins... they all migrated from the more western parts... and settled in the more central areas...   I've written a lot in my PPD on the history.