Translating "Questions and Answers on the Golden Elixir" (金丹问答)

[dawei]

问曰：何谓三田？

Question: What are the three fields?

 

答曰：脑为上田，

Answer: "The brain(脑) is the upper dan tian(上田);

 

心为中田，

The heart(心) is the middle dan tian(中田);

 

气海为下田。

The Chi Hai(气海 or 氣海) is the lower dan tian(下田).

 

 

若得斗柄之机斡运，则上下循环如天河之流转也。

It seems like the motion of the Hand of the Big Dipper, thus it was repeatedly rotating up and down like the flowing motion of the heavenly river.

 

 

PS....

This is a DIRECT translation from a given Chinese classic text without any outside influence.

Is the reference to the big dipper literal or figurative?

 

Meaning, is the big dipper simply used as a metaphor for the rotating up and down? Or put another way, is the physical and real dipper playing any role in this?

 

Where is the north star in this rotating?

[ChiDragon]

I neglected to note that this translation is from Legge... the most prolific translator of ancient chinese texts... So I can see you have a low opinion of his scholarly understanding and skills as a translator.

 

But he shows why a direct translation misses the mark; if the North Star is in its "appointed place" (其所) then it stands to reason/logic that the meaning is the rest are rotating.

 

Yes, I absolutely agree... you lack communication skills [and translation skills] to convey the meaning of a passage at times. But apparently you can't even understand what an ancient philosopher meant concerning the North Star.

 

The amount of mis-information you have spewed at this site is enormous. Forgive some of us if we want to call BS on it at times.

 

Translate [directly] on...

If you don't have anything to contribute into the discussion, please do not hesitate to hold your silence. You are doing the worse BS here.

 

 

為政以德，譬如北辰居其所而眾星共之。

"Rule with benevolence, it's like that all the stars are living together, in a shelter(其所), with the North Star."

 

Confucius was trying to point out the harmony of the people. It has nothing to do with the rotation of anything.

 

PS...

It doesn't matter who you bring up to substantiate your argument, if the translation is incorrect, then it is incorrect.

Edited February 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

為政以德，譬如北辰居其所而眾星共之。

"Rule with benevolence, it's like that all the stars are living together with the North Star."

 

Confucius was trying to point out the harmony of the people. It has nothing to do with the rotation of anything.

 

PS...

It doesn't matter who you bring up to substantiate your argument, if the translation is incorrect, then it is incorrect.

You often are obsessed with 'logic' in translations but you don't apply it here.

 

Stars do NOT live together... they have been observed to move around the North Star since ancient times. That is the harmony of centrality; the ruler is the center of the people; they all move relative to his central position of authority and that maintains harmony.

 

North Star = Emperor Star = Celestial Equivalent

Edited February 3, 2012 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

Let's stop....

You are impossible.

I rest my case.

[dawei]

Here is Muller's translation:

 

Confucius said: “If you govern with the power of your virtue, you will be like the North Star. It just stays in its place while all the other stars position themselves around it.”

 

Note, 'around it'... it is still the idea of centrality.

 

The ancients KNEW about the fixed position of the north star in many cultures. TO claim otherwise and refuse to even research it further is stupidity. The fact that the Big Dipper and North Star are found on oracle bones shows they at least knew of these very anciently. A study of ancient chinese astrology is actually interesting if one takes the time. But it is easier to bow when one doesn't really know alchemy.

 

For those interested, Mantak Chia writes a lot on the big dipper and north star energies and how they interact with the upper dan tian, where the spirit extends back to the universe.

Edited February 3, 2012 by dawei

[TianhuaQigong]

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Ok,

 

Chi Dragon, I thought that I might get you to continue looking for an answer and keep an open mind towards the possibilities. I appreciate your determination to get a good translation, but I know that determination can turn into stubbornness and this can make things difficult for the cooperative. Maybe a little flexibility (water) won't hurt your determination (wood). And maybe when we're trying to change stubbornness we could have and encourage introspection (metal) rather than firey passion? Some earth element would help too

 

 

Here's my thoughts on the passage:

 

Question: What are the three fields?

Answer: The brain is the upper field; the heart, the middle field; the sea of qi, the lower field. If one obtains the the handle of the Big Dipper and revolves it, then cycling up and down is like the revolving flow of the Milky Way.

 

The North Star is still while the stars move around it which is how it is reliable to find North if one is ever lost.

 

"At the consummation of stillness is the beginning of movement." I believe this is in the Lao Tzu. When there is stillness of mind, body, and energy, there arises movement, of itself, within the body. This natural and spontaneous movement, I believe, is "the revolving flow of the Milky Way."

 

I was unable to find a direct reference to these terms, however, this explanation is well in accordance with similar Daoist writing on this topic.

[ChiDragon]

The thing here is what I am getting at. If we want to bring ourselves back in time, please do not bring the modern knowledge into the past to make some erroneous interpretations. We must think back to see what were the conditions and what the ancients knew at the time. We just cant bring a microscope back two thousand years in the past and expect the ancients to see things in a cellular level.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

The thing here is what I am getting at. If we want to bring ourselves back in time, please do not bring the modern knowledge into the past to make some erroneous interpretations. We must think back to see what were the conditions and what the ancients knew at the time. We just cant bring a microscope back two thousand years in the past and expect the ancients to see things in a cellular level.

 

So what you're saying is that you think they studied and mapped out the constellations and knew exactly when they would be back in certain places, but they didn't realize during all that studying and notating the movements of the constellations that the North Star was always in the same place while the other stars turned like clockwork? You're sure of this enough to assert it with irrefutable authority on the subject once again? Are you sure?

[dawei]

Ok,

 

Chi Dragon, I thought that I might get you to continue looking for an answer and keep an open mind towards the possibilities. I appreciate your determination to get a good translation, but I know that determination can turn into stubbornness and this can make things difficult for the cooperative. Maybe a little flexibility (water) won't hurt your determination (wood). And maybe when we're trying to change stubbornness we could have and encourage introspection (metal) rather than firey passion? Some earth element would help too

 

 

Here's my thoughts on the passage:

 

 

 

The North Star is still while the stars move around it which is how it is reliable to find North if one is ever lost.

 

"At the consummation of stillness is the beginning of movement." I believe this is in the Lao Tzu. When there is stillness of mind, body, and energy, there arises movement, of itself, within the body. This natural and spontaneous movement, I believe, is "the revolving flow of the Milky Way."

 

I was unable to find a direct reference to these terms, however, this explanation is well in accordance with similar Daoist writing on this topic.

Here is a decent explanation:

THE DOCTRINE OF THE ELIXIR

 

Here it shows a 'reversing flow', not a revolving one. It may be a distinction without a difference since it just means the reversal occurs in the spine, which could be taken as revolving the spine (which is code for Milky Way).

 

 

DANTIANS

 

Here is a more detail discussion with a little more science and less alchemy, to show the Medical Qigong picture, by Jerry Johnson:

[dawei]

The thing here is what I am getting at. If we want to bring ourselves back in time, please do not bring the modern knowledge into the past to make some erroneous interpretations. We must think back to see what were the conditions and what the ancients knew at the time. We just cant bring a microscope back two thousand years in the past and expect the ancients to see things in a cellular level.

That is exactly what inner Alchemy spells out. Man as a microcosm of the universe allowed them to attain a point of seeing and feeling the inner [cellular] level. This is why your level of understand Qigong is mostly at the physical level. You don't know enough about the alchemy, Shengong or Medical Qigong levels to discuss what the ancients share in their coded writings.

[dawei]

[ChiDragon]

So what you're saying is that you think they studied and mapped out the constellations and knew exactly when they would be back in certain places, but they didn't realize during all that studying and notating the movements of the constellations that the North Star was always in the same place while the other stars turned like clockwork? You're sure of this enough to assert it with irrefutable authority on the subject once again? Are you sure?

 

Who said that the Ancient Chinese mapped out the constellations...??? I have not seen any Chinese documentation had mentioned the Milky Way. However, the most popular stars or planets were mentioned are the Sun, Moon, Venus, Jupiter, Mercury, Mars and Saturn. It was amazed that the Ancients had observed the sky and seen them with their naked eyes.

 

It's more amazing was that the names of these stars are correlated to the five elements, metal(金), wood(木), water(水), fire(火), and soil(土).

 

金星: Venus

木星: Jupiter

水星: Mercury

火星: Mars

土星: Saturn

 

They didn't realize during all that studying and notating the movements of the constellations that the North Star was always in the same place while the other stars turned like clockwork.

 

Yes, I am sure that I have not read any ancient document that supported this idea. The reason you asked this question because you knew this modern fact. At the time, the ancient Chinese thought that Heaven was round and Earth was flat which has four corners.

Edited February 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

....

The first known star catalog, containing 800 stars, was created in China in about 350 B.C. by Shih Shen.

 

Thanks Dawei.

 

Should we create a second thread for discussing terminology? This is getting a bit cluttered now, amusing as it might be. Then when we come to some levels of consensus someone could post them on this thread?

 

What do you all think?

[ChiDragon]

Thanks Dawei.

 

Should we create a second thread for discussing terminology? This is getting a bit cluttered now, amusing as it might be. Then when we come to some levels of consensus someone could post them on this thread?

 

What do you all think?

 

That was what I am thinking too. Now, I am searching through some Chinese documentations. Things are seem to be clearing up.

 

I have found the meaning of the term 天帝(tien de); it was bothering me for sometimes. Now, as I went through the documentations, I have discovered that it is a name was given to the North Star.

Edited February 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

See Oracle bone examples

http://hua.umf.maine.edu/China/astronomy/tianpage/0004H_oraclebonemap6716w.html

 

 

- the first documented solar eclipse - over 4000 years ago in 2137 B.C.

- The first recording of any planetary grouping was made by the Chinese in 500 B.C.

- In the fifth century B.C., the Chinese made the Book of Silk, the earliest known atlas of comets. It contains 29 comets, which is a collective history of about 300 years. They were referred to as "broom stars." The book was discovered in a tomb in 1973.

- Shih-shen catalogued 809 stars in 122 constellations in fourth century BC

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Chinese_astronomy

 

The sources are endless...

 

Compound this with the fact that these stars or references have more than one name; the milky way, north star, etc, have more than one name in ancient references.

[dawei]

Thanks Dawei.

 

Should we create a second thread for discussing terminology? This is getting a bit cluttered now, amusing as it might be. Then when we come to some levels of consensus someone could post them on this thread?

 

What do you all think?

A cross between amusing and preposterous.

 

Part of the problem is a translation running at warp speed with no discussion. It will be even more chaotic to try and comment on any part later.

 

IMO, it should be restarted at some point after it is complete and then discuss the sections in sequence. It would be good if some of the more veteran alchemist shared in the terminology as we might see interesting lineage issues. But I agree with what was said about it being a 'book of codes'. We'll get nowhere if the arguments are as baseless as the ancient chinese didn't make any star maps. People ought to treat the topic with some seriousness and that means some research before talking. Links and other evidence of the source would be a benefit to keep silly claims and denials out of the discussion. An open mind is almost required if one is going to talk about alchemy without any prior experience.

 

In the end, a rich source of links and sources would be very interesting. Not that it would be any kind of final word on alchemy meaning, but it offers people the chance to research more themselves and come to their own conclusions through reading and practice.

[ChiDragon]

Come to think of it. I have heard a lot of talk about definitions and experience about alchemy. However, I really did not get anything from the talk about somebody's prior alchemy experience.

Edited February 3, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

A cross between amusing and preposterous.

 

Part of the problem is a translation running at warp speed with no discussion. It will be even more chaotic to try and comment on any part later.

 

IMO, it should be restarted at some point after it is complete and then discuss the sections in sequence. It would be good if some of the more veteran alchemist shared in the terminology as we might see interesting lineage issues. But I agree with what was said about it being a 'book of codes'. We'll get nowhere if the arguments are as baseless as the ancient chinese didn't make any star maps. People ought to treat the topic with some seriousness and that means some research before talking. Links and other evidence of the source would be a benefit to keep silly claims and denials out of the discussion. An open mind is almost required if one is going to talk about alchemy without any prior experience.

 

In the end, a rich source of links and sources would be very interesting. Not that it would be any kind of final word on alchemy meaning, but it offers people the chance to research more themselves and come to their own conclusions through reading and practice.

 

I just feel like the thread with the translations shouldn't be tarnished with too much back and forth. It might never finish this way, and it will be difficult to find each chapter between pages of banters. I'm thinking we should let the first translation continue mostly unimpeded here, while we bring each part into another thread for further analysis where the disagreements won't distract too much. Maybe even have a third thread to post the finals of the second thread.

 

I have to admit, the communication in some of the TTC and Chuang Tzu was pretty off-putting and made the whole thing very difficult to (want to) continue reading.

 

Rainy_Day, since this is primarily your (greatly appreciated!) effort, what would be easier?

[ChiDragon]

I think we had ruined this thread. It is dead now.

[TianhuaQigong]

Who said that the Ancient Chinese mapped out the constellations...??? I have not seen any Chinese documentation had mentioned the Milky Way. However, the most popular stars or planets were mentioned are the Sun, Moon, Venus, Jupiter, Mercury, Mars and Saturn. It was amazed that the Ancients had observed the sky and seen them with their naked eyes.

 

It's more amazing was that the names of these stars are correlated to the five elements, metal(金), wood(木), water(水), fire(火), and soil(土).

 

金星: Venus

木星: Jupiter

水星: Mercury

火星: Mars

土星: Saturn

 

 

 

Yes, I am sure that I have not read any ancient document that supported this idea. The reason you asked this question because you knew this modern fact. At the time, the ancient Chinese thought that Heaven was round and Earth was flat which has four corners.

 

for "I have not seen any Chinese documentation had mentioned the Milky Way."

 

have u seen this image before, it is everywhere

[Rainy_Day]

Hi everyone.

 

Don't worry about the "back and forth". I really appreciate the interest everyone has taken in this.

 

I was just busy the last few days with school and job interviews. I'll get back to a steady translation routine as soon as possible.

 

问：防危？答曰：防火候之差失，忌梦寐之昏迷。翠虚曰：精生有时，时至神知，百刻之中，切忌昏迷。

 

Question: What is "preventing danger"?

 

Answer: To prevent error in applying the fire (e.g. its degree and duration), one must avoid a dream-like stupor. Mr. Cuixu said, "The essence is generated at a specific time. When the time comes, the spirit knows. Throughout the hundred quarter-hours*, the most important point is to avoid stupor."

 

*zdic says that "hundred quarter-hours" refers to one day and night.

 

问：交合？答曰：磁石吸铁，隔碍潜通。

 

Question: What is "copulation"?

 

Answer: A lodestone attracts iron. It communicates secretly through obstacles.

 

*I'm not sure if I translated this correctly. First, I'm not sure if copulation is the right translation for jiaohe. Second, I'm not sure how the two phrases in the answer relate to each other.

 

问：有无？答曰：金碧经曰：有无互相制，上有青龙居，两无宗一有，灵化妙难窥。

 

Question: What are being and non-being?

 

Answer: The Golden Jade Sutra says, "Being and non-being control each other. The abode of the green dragon is above. The two non-beings are rooted in the one being. The spirituous transformation is marvelous and hard to glimpse at."

 

问：刑德？答曰：阳为德，德出则万物生，阴为刑，刑出则万物死。故二月阳中含阴而榆荚落，象金砂随阴气动静落在胎中，故曰归根也。八月阴中含阳而荞麦生象金，水随阳气滋液于鼎内，故卯酉乃刑德相负，阴阳两停，故息符火也。

 

Question: What are punishment and virtue?

 

Answer: Yang is virtue - When virtue comes out, all things grow. Yin is punishment - When punishment comes out, all things die.

 

Therefore, since yang contains yin in the second month, elm pods drop. This symbolises metal sand following the movement and stillness of yin qi, dropping into the fetus - Hence, this is called returning to the root.

 

Since yin contains yang in the eighth month, buckwheat grows. This symbolises metal water following the juice of yang qi in the tripod.

 

Therefore, mao and you* are the points where punishment and virtue carry each other, and yin and yang both stop. Therefore, here the fu fire ceases.

 

*My understanding is that when applying the earthly branches to the months, the first month is always 寅(yin2). Therefore, mao is the second month, and you is the eighth month.

 

From Baidu:

 

　　月：正月是由寅开始，每个月的地支固定不变，然后依次与天干组合；由第一年的正月丙寅月、二月是丁卯月、三月是戊辰。从甲子月到癸亥月，共六十甲子，刚好五年。

 

*榆荚 = yu2jia2 = elm pods

 

...

 

问：黑白？答曰：参同契曰：知白守黑，神明自来。白者，金也。黑者，水也。以金水之根而为药基矣。

 

Question: What are black and white?

 

Answer: Cantongqi says, "If you know the white but guard the black, then spiritual clarity will come automatically. White refers to metal. Black refers to water. This means to use the root of metal and water to create the foundation of the medicine."

 

问：寒暑？答曰：真一子曰：不应刻漏，风雨不调，水旱相伐。或阳火过刻，或阴符失节。凝冬变为大暑；盛夏反作浓霜，火候过差，灵汞飞走，运火之士可不谨之！

 

Question: What are coldness and heat? (e.g. of winter and summer)

 

Answer: If things don't match up with the water clock, then wind and rain will not be regulated, and flood and drought will follow each other. In some cases, the yang fire is too much. In other cases, the yin fu is too much. Then, deep winter becomes great heat, and deep summer becomes thick frost. If the duration and degree of the fire is in error, then the spirituous mercury will fly away. A gentleman who operates the fire cannot afford to be careless in this!

Edited February 5, 2012 by Rainy_Day

[Rainy_Day]

[joeblast]

seriously... I just typed a ton and had the power kicked out, lost it all. bah! another time, then

[ChiDragon]

What is 火候(huo hou)

 

Definition of 火候

 

English translation of 火候

 

火候, a noun, is an expression to indicate how much effort that one puts into doing something.

 

By the ability that one can demonstrate a particular form or style of the martial arts, people can tell how much 火候(huo hou) you have or how much effort that you had putted into the practice.

Edited February 5, 2012 by ChiDragon