Translating "Questions and Answers on the Golden Elixir" (金丹问答)

[Rainy_Day]

You are doing a great job, methinks. The version of "tianzen" I offered is from other alchemical translations I've seen (e.g. Livia Kohn uses "original/celestial" -- i.e. both, with a slash.)

 

Just for a private perspective, I'll tell you what a perfect translation of an alchemical text looks like to me. It has the closest English equivalent the translator could think of, a few other possibilities in brackets, the Pinyin rendition of the original word (very important -- I profoundly dislike translations that give you only the translator's choice of an English word that may or may not have anything to do with the intended meaning of the original and no other options... i.e. the majority of translations ever offered ), and the Chinese character under scrutiny. This caters to all levels of Chinese/alchemical proficiency, from zero to hero. (An example of such a translation is the Riksema/Sabbadini (Eranos) I Ching.) This gives the reader a chance to choose the level of immersion in the original, i.e. just go along with the translator's own take, stylistic preferences, ideation -- or not. But of course it's a helluva lot of work.

 

Dear Taomeow,

 

Thank you for your perspective. I cannot agree more with you. As a Chinese person who sometimes reads English explanations of Daoism, nothing is more frustrating than when I read a phrase which seems loosely based on the Chinese language, but I have no idea what the translator is talking about, and there is no way to find out the original Chinese word. (E.g. All of Thomas Cleary's translations. I really don't understand why the editor doesn't even bother to put in a glossary.)

 

Livia Kohn is one of my heroes. If Livia Kohn translates this way, then I'll definitely give it serious consideration.

 

Thank you everyone else, ChiDragon, Harmonious Emptiness, and Dawei for your comments, too.

[Taomeow]

@ Taomeow

 

yes. that's why I thought it might be related to "pre-heavenly" but I guess there is probably a sort of Chinese prefix for that.

 

edit: also, to your post #90 here, footnotes for key terms would do this nicely. It's always nice to learn more about these terms.

 

Indeed. In fact, I would leave xiantian untranslated, and explain the concept in those footnotes (e.g.). Likewise, houtian. They are habitually translated this way and that way -- "earlier heaven" and "later heaven," "before manifestations" and "after manifestations," "prenatal" and "postnatal," "pre-heavenly" and "post-heavenly," etc., but lose absolutely everything in the translation. What, exactly, does "pre-heavenly" mean to an English speaker without an explanation? Absolutely nothing. So why offer any translation at all, if an explanation is necessary anyway no matter how one translates it? Why not call it what it's called -- xiantian -- and then explain what it actually refers to in the taoist classics? Just as no translator could/would/should translate "yin" and "yang," xiantian and houtian are fundamental taoist notions with no English counterpart available at all, and should be treated as such. They are proprietary concepts of the system. As are many, many other idiosyncratic taoist terms.

 

I think proficiency in one's own language (or a second/third/fourth one etc. one is fluent in) asks, as a minimal requirement, for some familiarity with the way words of foreign origin are acquired by this language. In English, the best of them are traditionally left untranslated -- yet are understood perfectly via use. Everybody knows what a "computer" is and has no problem with the Latin-derived term (computus and computare) but would indeed have a problem with an "English translation" -- how do you "translate" what it is?.. Naming it is enough. Most taoist alchemical terms ask for this courtesy too -- and then some.

[Taomeow]

Dear Taomeow,

 

Thank you for your perspective. I cannot agree more with you. As a Chinese person who sometimes reads English explanations of Daoism, nothing is more frustrating than when I read a phrase which seems loosely based on the Chinese language, but I have no idea what the translator is talking about, and there is no way to find out the original Chinese word. (E.g. All of Thomas Cleary's translations. I really don't understand why the editor doesn't even bother to put in a glossary.)

 

I know exactly what you're talking about! Thomas Cleary translates everything that moves! "Vitality, energy, spirit" -- sheesh, what's wrong with jing, qi, shen? But the worst is (in my experience) dealing with a book translated in China by multiple translators, different ones having worked on different chapters. I own a book on a subject of great interest to me that drives me nuts -- it has one author but seventeen (sic) translators and not one of them seems to have been even slightly interested in how any of his 16 peers are rendering this or that term. So for the same Chinese words pertaining to the same notions and phenomena, I have seventeen versions of what they call it in English -- go figure if they're referring to the same thing or to seventeen different ones!

[Birch]

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umberto_Eco

 

Couldn't find an English translation, sorry!

 

Edit: posted for his very fine book about translating and translations.

Edited February 7, 2012 by -K-

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Any other preferences on turning this into a multi-thread Personal Practice Discussion?

Rainy_Day? Taomeow? Dawei? K?

Edited February 7, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Birch]

I'd put it in a section like the TTC. I wouldn't think to go to it if it were in a PPF.

[dawei]

Livia Kohn is one of my heroes. If Livia Kohn translates this way, then I'll definitely give it serious consideration.

For what it's worth, Fabrizio Pregadio uses "Celestial"...

[dawei]

Any other preferences on turning this into a multi-thread Personal Practice Discussion?

Rainy_Day? Taomeow? Dawei? K?

Personally, I would not mix the two ideas. I would just support the translation with a terminology piece. Those who want to explain it in terms of practice could. Like you, I can't stay up with pace of this translation to offer much. There is life outside of the keyboard after all

[Rainy_Day]

Hi, everyone!

 

I think Dawei is right in that this is really more of a terminology piece. When this is done, we can work on something more directly related to practice.

 

There are only a few lines left to be translated anyway. The first literal draft can definitely be done before the end of the week. Then, next step would be for me to read Chen Yingning's commentary on the Cantongqi, so to understand what is actually going on with the terminologies. Maybe browse some modern language explanations of internal alchemy on the web. And then revise the draft along with annotations.

 

问：玉池：答曰：口也。黄庭经曰：玉池清水灌灵根是也。

 

Question: What is the jade pool?

 

Answer: The mouth. The Yellow Court Sutra says, "Let clear water from the jade pool irrigate the spirit root.*"

 

* ling3gen1 - zdic says this refers to the tongue:

 

(8).道教指舌根。《黄庭内景经·上有章》：“灌溉五华植灵根。” 务成子 注：“灵根，舌本也。” 宋 陆游 《病中作》诗：“不忧竖子居肓上，已见真人出面门。力守谁能发底火？深潜自足美灵根。”

 

......

 

问：橐龠：答曰：橐乃无底囊，龠乃三孔笛，又是铁匠手中所弄鼓风之物也。老子曰：天地之间，其犹橐龠乎。升降论曰：人能效天地橐龠之用，开则气出，阖则气入，出则如地气之上升，入则如天气之下降，一升一降，自可与天地齐长久矣。

 

Question: As for the sack and the flute? (E.g. A bellow.)

 

Answer: The sack is a bottomless sack. The flute is a flute with three holes. These are also what a blacksmith holds in his hands to blow wind. Laozi said, "Between Heaven and Earth, is this not like a bellow?" The Treatise on Rising and Falling says, "If a person can imitate the function of the bellow of Heaven and Earth - Qi goes out when it opens, and comes in when it closes; and when qi goes out, it is as the qi of the Earth ascending, and when qi comes in, it is as the qi of Heaven descending, with each ascent followed by a descent - then this person can live as long as Heaven and Earth.

 

问：五芽？答曰：乃五脏之真气。中黄经曰：子能守之三虫弃，得见五芽九真气。

 

Question: The five sprouts?

 

Answer: These are the zhen qi of the five organs. The Middle Yellow Sutra said, "If you can guard it, then you can get rid of the three worms and see the five sprouts and nine zhen qi."

 

*I found a baidu and zdic explanation of this, which matches up with the explanation in the text:

 

Baidu:

 

　　道教炼养术语。亦称五芽。指五行之生气。《黄庭内景经》：“存漱五牙不饥渴。”《悟真篇·自序》：“如炼五芽之气，服七曜之光。”道教认为服食五行真气，可炼养五脏，延年驻寿。

 

A jargon in Daoist cultivation...It refers to the qi of life (e.g. yuan qi, or original qi) of the five phases...Daoism believes that by taking the zhen qi of the five phases, one can refine and nourish the five organs, as well as extend one's life and slow down aging.

 

zdic:

 

(2).道教语。指木、火、土、金、水五行的初生之气。《云笈七籤》卷五八：“夫道者，或传服五牙。五牙者，五行之生气。”

 

Daoist jargon, referring to the qi of the five phases when they are first generated.

 

......

 

问：屯蒙？答曰：道枢曰：坎者，水也，一变为水泽之节，再变为水雷之屯，其爻居寅。离者，火也，一变为火山之旅，再变为火风之鼎，三变为山水之蒙，其爻居戌，抽添水火在于寅戌，十二卦气在于屯蒙运用。

 

Question: The hexagrams zhun and meng?

 

Answer: The Pivot of Dao says, "Kan is water. With one changed line, it becomes the hexagram jie of water and swamp. With another changed line, it becomes the hexagram zhun of water and thunder. Its line resides in yin (of the earthly branches). Li is fire. With one changed line, it becomes the hexagram lv of fire and mountain. With another changed line, it becomes the hexagram ding of fire and wind. With a third changed line, it becomes the hexagram meng of mountain and water. Its line resides in xu (of the earthly branches). Draw and add water and fire at yin and xu. The twelve guaqi* should be used at zhun and meng."

 

*A concept in traditional Chinese sciences. I'm not familiar with it, but I know where I can find the resources.

 

问：采日精月华？答曰：非外之日月也。采心中真液，肾中真气也。

 

Question: Collecting the essence of the sun and the splendour of the moon?

 

Answer: Not the sun and moon of the outside world. What is meant here is to collect the true fluid in the heart and the zhen qi of the kidneys.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Rainy_Day

[Rainy_Day]

[ChiDragon]

Indeed. In fact, I would leave xiantian untranslated, and explain the concept in those footnotes (e.g.). Likewise, houtian. They are habitually translated this way and that way -- "earlier heaven" and "later heaven," "before manifestations" and "after manifestations," "prenatal" and "postnatal," "pre-heavenly" and "post-heavenly," etc., but lose absolutely everything in the translation. What, exactly, does "pre-heavenly" mean to an English speaker without an explanation? Absolutely nothing. So why offer any translation at all, if an explanation is necessary anyway no matter how one translates it? Why not call it what it's called -- xiantian -- and then explain what it actually refers to in the taoist classics? Just as no translator could/would/should translate "yin" and "yang," xiantian and houtian are fundamental taoist notions with no English counterpart available at all, and should be treated as such. They are proprietary concepts of the system. As are many, many other idiosyncratic taoist terms.

 

I think proficiency in one's own language (or a second/third/fourth one etc. one is fluent in) asks, as a minimal requirement, for some familiarity with the way words of foreign origin are acquired by this language. In English, the best of them are traditionally left untranslated -- yet are understood perfectly via use. Everybody knows what a "computer" is and has no problem with the Latin-derived term (computus and computare) but would indeed have a problem with an "English translation" -- how do you "translate" what it is?.. Naming it is enough. Most taoist alchemical terms ask for this courtesy too -- and then some.

EXACTLY...!!!

 

1. I wish that 'Tao' was not translated as "the way".

2. "Wu wei" is not "non action"; or "not doing".

3. 先天(xian tian) and 後天(hou tian) were not "earlier heaven" and "later heaven"

 

There was really something got lost in the translation. I have to throw up every time when I hear somebody repeat these poor translations each time...

[Apech]

......

 

问：橐龠：答曰：橐乃无底囊，龠乃三孔笛，又是铁匠手中所弄鼓风之物也。老子曰：天地之间，其犹橐龠乎。升降论曰：人能效天地橐龠之用，开则气出，阖则气入，出则如地气之上升，入则如天气之下降，一升一降，自可与天地齐长久矣。

 

Question: As for the sack and the flute? (E.g. A bellow.)

 

Answer: The sack is a bottomless sack. The flute is a flute with three holes. These are also what a blacksmith holds in his hands to blow wind. Laozi said, "Between Heaven and Earth, is this not like a bellow?" The Treatise on Rising and Falling says, "If a person can imitate the function of the bellow of Heaven and Earth - Qi goes out when it opens, and comes in when it closes; and when qi goes out, it is as the qi of the Earth ascending, and when qi comes in, it is as the qi of Heaven descending, with each ascent followed by a descent - then this person can live as long as Heaven and Earth.

 

...

 

Rainy Day,

 

Thanks for doing this translation BTW ... very interesting.

 

I think the word you want is 'bellows' with an 's' and not bellow. Bellow means a loud noise that an animal might make, like a bull's roar. While bellows means an apparatus for blowing air for instance in a blacksmiths forge. It always takes the 's' and may be singular or plural ... sometimes it is called 'a pair of bellows' even though it is one instrument ... a bit like the lungs really.

[ChiDragon]

橐龠: 古代風箱; an ancient Wind Box is different from a Bellows.

 

橐龠(Wind Box)

[Taomeow]

Rainy Day,

 

Thanks for doing this translation BTW ... very interesting.

 

I think the word you want is 'bellows' with an 's' and not bellow. Bellow means a loud noise that an animal might make, like a bull's roar. While bellows means an apparatus for blowing air for instance in a blacksmiths forge. It always takes the 's' and may be singular or plural ... sometimes it is called 'a pair of bellows' even though it is one instrument ... a bit like the lungs really.

 

"Between Heaven and Earth, isn't it like a bellow?"

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ2ZcmMxehk

[Ish]

Well could it not be - Heaven = head, Earth = Lower dan tian, between them are the lungs/chest. By the act of breathing the lungs are the bellows fanning the fire in the dan tian.

[ChiDragon]

Well could it not be - Heaven = head, Earth = Lower dan tian, between them are the lungs/chest. By the act of breathing the lungs are the bellows fanning the fire in the dan tian.

 

Yes, that can be one of the Taoist mythical explanations...

[dawei]

Yes, that can be one of the Taoist mythical explanations...

It is evident you like to belittle some ideas as 'Taoist mythical' as you do this in multiple threads...

 

It is a natural explanation; man as a microcosm of the universe... call it mystical if you personally want... it will become your personal barrier. It is the very connection and 'return' which joins us to the 'Way'... Yes... Dao as 'Way' is ok to use.

[ChiDragon]

It is evident you like to belittle some ideas as 'Taoist mythical' as you do this in multiple threads...

 

It is a natural explanation; man as a microcosm of the universe... call it mystical if you personally want... it will become your personal barrier. It is the very connection and 'return' which joins us to the 'Way'... Yes... Dao as 'Way' is ok to use.

Yes, dawei.

 

 

FYI....

The Chinese Taoists use a set of esoteric language which is bot very easily to be understood by an ordinary person. The terms that they use are always related to nature. Some of them sounds very mythical, it takes someone to interpret them into the modern level for people to understand. This is what I mean by "mythical". Why do you always take things in a negative way...???

Edited February 16, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Yes, dawei.

 

 

FYI....

The Chinese Taoists use a set of esoteric language which is bot very easily to be understood by an ordinary person. The terms that they use are always related to nature. Some of them sounds very mythical, it takes someone to interpret them into the modern level for people to understand. This is what I mean by "mythical". Why do you always take things in a negative way...???

It is your usage not mine.

 

When someone, more than once, says: 'Oh... so if your going to use Taoist mystical-speak, I am done with this conversation'... 9 people out of 10 understand the meaning. Maybe your thinking everyone is the "1". If you can't understand what is being said then just stop talking; there is no reason to keep harping at members with a comment that they are following 'mystical-speak'... That is the point; to untangle it [eventually at least].

 

Ever think that it is the negative energy you put off? It is quite strong at times... but I know such a concept is too mystical for some to consider... so back to hiding behind philosophical shelters.

[ChiDragon]

It is your usage not mine.

 

When someone, more than once, says: 'Oh... so if your going to use Taoist mystical-speak, I am done with this conversation'... 9 people out of 10 understand the meaning. Maybe your thinking everyone is the "1". If you can't understand what is being said then just stop talking; there is no reason to keep harping at members with a comment that they are following 'mystical-speak'... That is the point; to untangle it [eventually at least].

 

Ever think that it is the negative energy you put off? It is quite strong at times... but I know such a concept is too mystical for some to consider... so back to hiding behind philosophical shelters.

 

Please do not misrepresent me. Again, I do not wish to discuss anything with someone that has so much prejudice and personal objection/rejection toward one another. Hence, I do not expect a good conclusion will be reached in return with a valuable lesson learned.

Edited February 19, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Please do not misrepresent me. Again, I do not wish to discuss anything with someone that has so much prejudice and personal objection/rejection toward one another. Hence, I do not expect a good conclusion will be reached in return with a valuable lesson learned.

Then why are you continuing to talk? Just because it is your M.O. to get the last word doesn't mean you have to follow that pattern every single instance... try breaking a pattern and you might find something shake loose.

[more_ple_guy]

ChiDragon i think the work your doing here is wonderful. Its really the first glimpse many of us get into real translation. I look forward to reading all your posts.

 

Great Job.

[ChiDragon]

ChiDragon i think the work your doing here is wonderful. Its really the first glimpse many of us get into real translation. I look forward to reading all your posts.

 

Great Job.

 

Crazyhorse.....

Thank you for your inspiration......

[gj551]

yo dawg i herd you like meditating..

 

uh managed to put your great and worthwhile translation into one compact formatted text file. blessed be your bodily odors. yeah i can take it off the air if it doesnt please you but i thought it could be of use because its dispersed over many pages

questions golden elixir.pdf