Translating "Questions and Answers on the Golden Elixir" (金丹问答)

[ChiDragon]

Ref: Chinese definition of 神明

 

中医(TCM)

　神明

①指神志或精神。《素问·灵兰秘典论》：“心者，君主之官，神明出焉。”《素问·脉要精微论》：“言语善恶不避亲疏者，此神明之乱也。”

 

②指日月星辰等自然界现象及规律。《素问·五运行大论》：“论言天地之动静，神明为之纪。”《素问·移精变气论》：“此上帝之所贵，以合于神明也。”

 

③玄奥，神秘。《素问·阴阳应象大论》：“阴阳者，天地之道也，万物之纲纪，变化之父母，生杀之本始，神明之府也。”

 

IN TCM

The definition of 神明(shen ming)

1. It implies to consciousness; intuition or the reflection of the soul(精神).

2. It implies to the astral motion of Sun, Moon and all the stars.

3. It implies to have the meaning of subtle or profound.

Edited February 5, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

问：黑白？答曰：参同契曰：知白守黑，神明自来。白者，金也。黑者，水也。以金水之根而为药基矣。

 

Question: What are black and white?

 

Answer: Cantongqi says, "If you know the white but guard the black, then spiritual clarity will come automatically. White refers to metal. Black refers to water. This means to use the root of metal and water to create the foundation of the medicine."

 

问：晦朔？答曰：参同契曰：晦朔之间，合符中行，乃金水符合之际也。

 

Question: What are "dark moon" and "new moon"? (These refer to the last day and first day of a month in the Chinese calendar, respectively.)

 

Answer: The Cantongqi says, "Between the dark moon and the new moon, combine the two parts of the tally and walk in the middle*" - This is the moment where tallies of metal and water combine.

 

*Not sure if this translation is correct. In ancient China, fu, or tally, is divided into two parts and given to two people. When the two people meet, they put the two parts back into one, so to confirm each other's identity.

 

问：晦朔？答曰：参同契曰：晦朔之间，合符中行，乃金水符合之际也。

Question: "What is 晦(hui)朔(shuo)?"

 

Answer: "The Cantongqi says: "Between the 晦(hui) and 朔(shuo), it was in accord with the cosmic orbital routine. Thus it was in accord with the metal(white) and water(dark) though."

 

Annotation: During the changing phrase of the moon, it goes from dark to bright. The terms such as "metal(white)" and "water(dark)" were used to describe the different phrase of the moon in the lunar months.

[ChiDragon]

"火候" means how strong you think.

 

Based on our mutual understanding of the common language, I think I understand what you are saying. However, it can be expressed in a more explicit manner, let's rephrase these words.

 

It is not how strong you think. It is the level of attainment that you think one has in something. The term "kung fu" carries this meaning. If one puts in lots of "kung fu(time and effort)" into a practice, then it was said to be that his huo huo(火候) shall be attained to a significant level.

 

 

BTW That was how the term "Kung Fu" become to have the meaning as "martial arts".

[ChiDragon]

问：四正？答曰：子午卯酉为四正，玄关一窍四正宫也。

 

Question: What are the four rectitude?

 

Answer: Zi(子), wu(午), mao(卯), and you(酉) are the four rectitude - the four proper palaces of one opening of the mysterious gate.

 

May I translate this again...???

 

Question: " What are the four central positions?"

 

Answer: "Zi(子), wu(午), mao(卯), and you(酉) are the four central positions - the oracular gateway is the main entrance to the four central palaces."

 

 

 

 

Annotation:

Please note that the time units are located in the four positions of the Ba Gua diagram: Zi(子) at the top(north), wu(午) at the bottom(south), mao(卯) at the right(east), and you(酉) at the left(west). These four positions are considered to be the central positions or palaces.

 

Normally, the diagram was drawn with a rotation of 180 degrees in accord with the ancient Chinese thinking.

Edited February 6, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Rainy_Day]

Dear ChiDragon,

 

My understanding is that huohou in a qigong or neidan context means the degree of concentration：

 

「火候」之說本出於外丹黃白術的煉制活動，指的是煉制過程中的用火技巧、程序、溫度變化等。從天人合一的立場出發，道門中人通過具體實踐和總結，形成了一套火候操作的流程，其大體精神就是效法日月交替、陰陽轉換的節律來掌控火候的進退。後來，這種理論也引入了內丹修煉活動之中。就內丹學的角度而言，所謂「火候」無非是一種形容，它指的是意念和呼吸的運用程度。在煉丹家的心目中，掌握火候，這是非常重要的事情，甚至可以說是金丹煉制能否成功的決定性一環。向來，在道門中，有「藥物易知，火候難準」的說法，因此必須謹慎從事。內丹家劉一明在《悟真直指》中指出，「火」指的是修持之功力，「候」指的是修持之次序。火候有幾種不同的情況，有文烹火候，有武煉火候，有下手火候，有止歇火候，有還丹火候，有大丹火候，有增減火候，有溫養火候，等等。火候的秘要，在於意念，所謂「念」就是雜亂的心思念頭；「意」指駕馭呼吸的自我之「神」。雜亂的念頭不可妄起；如果妄起了，那就會致使火躁；而神意則不能散失，如果散失了，那就會致使火冷。故而，應該明了其動靜，審察其寒溫，以象徵的法度來看，這就是必須效法天時之進退。例如以一日而言，有子午卯酉之轉換；以一年而言，有亥子之交替，唯有知曉陰陽變遷，才能與時共進退，煉成大丹。

 

The theory of "huohou" originally came from the operations of external alchemy, e.g. the technique of the yellow and the white. It refers to techniques, procedures, and changes in temperature during the alchemical operation...Later, this theory was brought into the cultivation of internal alchemy. From the perspective of internal alchemy, "huohou" functions as a descriptor: It refers to the degree of intent and breathing applied...The secret of "huohou" is intent (yinian). Nian refers to chaotic thoughts in the mind. Yi refers to the spirit which drives and controls breathing. Chaotic thoughts should not be allowed to arise without restraint. If they arise without restraint, then the fire will become overexcited. Furthermore, the yi of the spirit should not be allowed to dissipate. If it dissipates, then the fire will become cold...

 

http://zh.daoinfo.org/wiki/%E7%81%AB%E5%80%99

 

What you're referring to, if I understand you correctly, is more the popular or slang meaning of the word.

 

Btw, this site (道教文化中心資料庫) is really good (where I got the definition from): http://zh.daoinfo.org/wiki/%E9%A6%96%E9%A0%81

 

It's basically Wikipedia for Daoism. It has a Chinese and an English version. It even includes the definition and explanation of the major processes in internal alchemy, in both Chinese and English. (I'm definitely going to rely on this when we fix up the translation later.)

Edited February 6, 2012 by Rainy_Day

[Rainy_Day]

问：金乌玉兔：答曰：日中乌，比心中之液也，月中兔，比肾中之气也。

 

Question: What are the "golden crow" and the "jade rabbit"?

 

Answer: The crow in the sun symbolises the fluid in the heart. The rabbit in the moon symbolises the qi in the kidneys.

 

问：炼形？答曰：炼形化气，炼气化神，炼神合道也。金洞主曰：以精炼形非凡砂石。

 

Question: What is refining the form?

 

Answer: Refine the form into qi, refine qi into spirit, refine spirit to combine with Dao. The Master of the Golden Cave said, "Use essence, rather than sand and rocks, to refine the form."

 

问：紫阳谓心肾非坎离，何也？答曰：心肾特坎离之体耳，有体有用。

 

Question: Mr. Ziyang said that the heart and the kidneys are not kan and li. Why?

 

Answer: The heart and the kidneys are merely the substance of kan and li. Kan and li should include both substance and function.

 

问：所用者何也？答曰：天心乃心之用也。属离。形乃肾之用也，属坎，交媾之际，运用于此矣。

 

Question: What are their functions?

 

Answer: The mind of Heaven is the function of the heart - It belongs to li. The form is the function of the kidneys - It belongs to the kidneys. When copulating, they are used here.

 

问：功夫？答曰：知时而交媾，进火而防危，阳生而野战，刑德而沐浴，以至温养成丹也。

 

Question: What is gongfu?

 

Answer: To know the correct time for copulation, advance the fire and prevent danger, battle in the field when yang is generated, use punishment and virtue for bathing, until the elixir is cultivated by warmth.*

 

*By warmth - e.g. It's a gentle, rather than forceful, process.

[ChiDragon]

Rainy_Day....

Thank you for pointing the induced terms from the external to internal ideas. I am getting the idea that there is a different between the two.

[Rainy_Day]

问：野战？答曰：龙虎经曰：文以怀柔，武以讨叛。紫阳曰：守城野战知凶吉，增得灵砂满鼎红。

 

Question: What is the "battle in the field"?

 

Answer: The Dragon Tiger Sutra said, "Use culture to harbour softness, and use might to put down rebellion." Mr. Ziyang said, "If you know good and evil fortune while guarding the city and battling in the field, then you can get the spirituous sand to redden throughout the cauldron."

 

问：温养？答曰：杏林曰：温养象周星。毗陵曰：金鼎常留汤用暖，玉炉不要火教寒，是也。

 

Question: What is warm cultivation?

 

Answer: Mr. Xinlin said, "Warm cultivation symbolises Jupiter*. Mr. Piling said, "Always leave warm soup in the golden cauldron, and don't let the fire get cold in the jade furnace.""

 

*Zhouxing apparently means Jupiter or a year. Jupiter travels through one palace out of twelve of the ecliptic per year, completing one cycle every twelve years.

 

问：烹炼？答曰：烹金鼎，炼玉炉。口诀存焉。

 

Question: What are boiling and refining?

 

Answer: Boil in the golden cauldron, and refine in the jade furnace. This is the mnemonic.

 

问：赏罚？答曰：春气发生谓之赏，乃巳前阳火之候也；秋气杀物谓之罚，乃午后阴符之候也。

 

Question: What are reward and punishment?

 

Answer: The qi of Spring arising is called reward - This is the time of yang fire before si. The qi of Autumn killing things is called punishment - This is the time of yin fu after wu."

 

问：守城？答曰：抱元守一而凝神聚气也。

 

Question: what is "guarding the city"?

 

Answer: Embracing the origin and guarding the one in order to condense spirit and gather qi.

[Rainy_Day]

Rainy_Day....

Thank you for pointing the induced terms from the external to internal ideas. I am getting the idea that there is a different between the two.

 

Dear ChiDragon,

 

No problem. Thank you, btw, for all the commentary you made.

[Rainy_Day]

问：堤防：答曰：驱除杂念而专心不二也。

 

Question: What is the dike?

 

Answer: To expel miscellaneous thoughts while focusing the mind in one-pointedness.

 

问：神庐者，何也？答曰：鼻也，乃神气出入之门，黄庭经曰：神庐之中当修治，呼吸庐间入丹田。

 

Question: What is the spirituous hut?

 

Answer: The nose - This is door through which spirit and qi go out and come in. The Yellow Court Sutra says, "Cultivate and manage in the spirituous hut, while breathing through the hut into dantian."

 

问：太一含真？答曰：守真一于天谷，气入玄元，即达本来天真。答上曰：真道养神，若能守我在死气之关，令七祖枯骨皆有生气。生我者道，活我者神，将神守道，以道养神是也。

 

Question: What is "the great unity containing reality"?

 

Answer: Guard real unity at the valley of Heaven, and let qi enter the mysterious origin, then you will arrive at the original heavenly reality. Mr. Dashang said, "The true way nourishes the spirit. If you can guard yourself at the gate of the dead qi, then you will cause the dry bones of seven ancestors to all have living qi. Dao gave birth to me, and spirit gave life to me. Take spirit to guard Dao is to use Dao to nourish spirit."

 

问：三尸？答曰：中黄经曰：一者上虫，居脑中；二者中虫，居名堂；三者下虫，居腹胃；名曰彭琚，彭质，彭矫也。恶人进道。善人退志，上田乃元神所居之宫，惟人不能开此关，被尸虫居之，生死轮回无有了期，若能握元神，栖于本宫，则尸虫自灭，真息自定，所谓一窍开而百窍齐开，大关通而百骸尽通，则天真降灵，不神之神所以神也。

 

Question: What are the "three corpses"?

 

Answer: The Middle Yellow Sutra said, "First, the upper worm lives in the brain. Second, the middle worm lives in the Hall of Name. Third, the lower worm lives in the abdomen and the stomach. Their names are Pengju, Pengzhi, and Pengjiao. They hate it when people advance in the Dao. They love it when people lose their determination. The upper dantian is the palace where the original shen dwells, but humans cannot open this gate, because the corpse-worm lives here. As a result, there is no end to birth, death, and reincarnation. If you can take hold of the original spirit and dwell in the root palace, then the corpse-worm will die of its own accord, and the true breath will become still automatically. This is what is called "When one aperture opens, a hundred apertures will open together. When the great gate is unblocked, then one hundred bones will be unblocked." Then heavenly reality will display miracles. This is why the spirit of no spirit is spirituous.*

 

*The last part is obscure to me. I'm also unclear as to how to translate tianzhen.

 

问：胎息：答曰：能守真一，则息不往来，如在母胞胎之中，谓之大定也。

 

Question: What is fetus breathing?

 

Answer: If you can guard the real unity, then breath will not come and go, like in the fetus in the womb of a mother. This is called the great stillness.

[Taomeow]

 

*The last part is obscure to me. I'm also unclear as to how to translate tianzhen.

 

How about "original/celestial reality"?

[Rainy_Day]

How about "original/celestial reality"?

 

Dear Taomeow,

 

Thank you for your suggestion.

 

As you probably know, tianzhen in ordinary Chinese means innocence or naivete. I wonder, however, if there is a specific internal alchemy meaning to it. My considerations were as follow:

 

(1) If the specific alchemical meaning is related to innocence, then how to translate in a way which draws out that connotation.

(2) I tend to translate tian as heavenly rather than celestial, because it seems to me that "celestial" just adds a faux oriental flavour, where what is actually meant is the sky, Heaven, or nature.

(3) How literal I should be in translating the characters. (Right now, I'm translating almost as literally as I can, especially the parts I don't understand.)

 

This is why I've tentatively translated as "Heavenly reality", which is like the "celestial reality" you've suggested. I think "original reality" is probably better in conveying the meaning (if it means what I think it means), but that would be less literal.

 

In any case, I think the best way is for me to read some of the resources suggested by the people above, so to figure out the standard translation for some of these phrases.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Rainy_Day

[dawei]

(1) If the specific alchemical meaning is related to innocence, then how to translate in a way which draws out that connotation.

(2) I tend to translate tian as heavenly rather than celestial, because it seems to me that "celestial" just adds a faux oriental flavour, where what is actually meant is the sky, Heaven, or nature.

(3) How literal I should be in translating the characters. (Right now, I'm translating almost as literally as I can, especially the parts I don't understand.)

 

This is why I've tentatively translated as "Heavenly reality", which is like the "celestial reality" you've suggested. I think "original reality" is probably better in conveying the meaning (if it means what I think it means), but that would be less literal.

 

Consider: 天师道

 

There must be a reason it is virtually translated by everyone as "The Way of the Celestial Masters".

 

Because, IMO: This is Alchemy... not philosophy.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Personally, I appreciate the use of literal meanings as it helps to see more of what is meant or connected to the word. I also agree that "Celestial" has sort of lost all meaning.

 

I think rather than just using the common translations for a word it would be most beneficial to English readers to translate literally and then have footnotes with the original word and an explanation.

 

"As you probably know, tianzhen in ordinary Chinese means innocence or naivete."

 

Is this related to "pre-heavenly qi" or not the same word?

Edited February 6, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Taomeow]

Dear Taomeow,

 

Thank you for your suggestion.

 

As you probably know, tianzhen in ordinary Chinese means innocence or naivete. I wonder, however, if there is a specific internal alchemy meaning to it. My considerations were as follow:

 

(1) If the specific alchemical meaning is related to innocence, then how to translate in a way which draws out that connotation.

(2) I tend to translate tian as heavenly rather than celestial, because it seems to me that "celestial" just adds a faux oriental flavour, where what is actually meant is the sky, Heaven, or nature.

(3) How literal I should be in translating the characters. (Right now, I'm translating almost as literally as I can, especially the parts I don't understand.)

 

This is why I've tentatively translated as "Heavenly reality", which is like the "celestial reality" you've suggested. I think "original reality" is probably better in conveying the meaning (if it means what I think it means), but that would be less literal.

 

In any case, I think the best way is for me to read some of the resources suggested by the people above, so to figure out the standard translation for some of these phrases.

 

You are doing a great job, methinks. The version of "tianzen" I offered is from other alchemical translations I've seen (e.g. Livia Kohn uses "original/celestial" -- i.e. both, with a slash.)

 

Just for a private perspective, I'll tell you what a perfect translation of an alchemical text looks like to me. It has the closest English equivalent the translator could think of, a few other possibilities in brackets, the Pinyin rendition of the original word (very important -- I profoundly dislike translations that give you only the translator's choice of an English word that may or may not have anything to do with the intended meaning of the original and no other options... i.e. the majority of translations ever offered ), and the Chinese character under scrutiny. This caters to all levels of Chinese/alchemical proficiency, from zero to hero. (An example of such a translation is the Riksema/Sabbadini (Eranos) I Ching.) This gives the reader a chance to choose the level of immersion in the original, i.e. just go along with the translator's own take, stylistic preferences, ideation -- or not. But of course it's a helluva lot of work.

[ChiDragon]

(1) If the specific alchemical meaning is related to innocence, then how to translate in a way which draws out that connotation.

 

(2) I tend to translate tian as heavenly rather than celestial, because it seems to me that "celestial" just adds a faux oriental flavour, where what is actually meant is the sky, Heaven, or nature.

 

(3) How literal I should be in translating the characters. (Right now, I'm translating almost as literally as I can, especially the parts I don't understand.)

 

This is why I've tentatively translated as "Heavenly reality", which is like the "celestial reality" you've suggested. I think "original reality" is probably better in conveying the meaning (if it means what I think it means), but that would be less literal.

 

You welcome...

 

1. In this case, I don't think the literal meaning of the term "innocence" is like the innocence of a child. It is just not logical to apply to Taoist alchemy.

 

2. I tend to think the same way. 天真(tian zhen) to a Taoist is "Heavenly reality". It is the innate truth, something that is real and pure was given by Heaven(nature). In Chinese thinking, anything that is natural was referred it was given by heaven. For example, any calamity was by the heavenly volition(天意, tian yi). In western thinking, it would be referred as "God's will" or the "act of God".

 

 

Personally, I appreciate the use of literal meanings as it helps to see more of what is meant or connected to the word. I also agree that "Celestial" has sort of lost all meaning.

 

HE...

We are on common ground...

Edited February 6, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Taomeow]

1. In this case, I don't think the literal meaning of the term "innocence" is like the innocence of a child. It is just not logical to apply to Taoist alchemy.

 

Quite on the contrary.

 

The whole idea of alchemy is based on another one -- that of corruption, alchemical processes being the antidote, offering (if they work) incorruptibility. One starts with a corrupted state, the state of loss of innocence, and works alchemically to reverse it and restore the original innocence. Innocence (like that of a child, an infant, even an unborn child, a fetus in the womb) is what taoism equates with one's original nature. In other words, unlike in, e.g., Christianity where you are supposed to be weighed down by an "original sin," taoism presupposes "original purity." So "innocent" and "original" both convey this idea, while "celestial" hints that we are not talking any "mundane" definitions of "innocent and original."

[Harmonious Emptiness]

@ Taomeow

 

yes. that's why I thought it might be related to "pre-heavenly" but I guess there is probably a sort of Chinese prefix for that.

 

edit: also, to your post #90 here, footnotes for key terms would do this nicely. It's always nice to learn more about these terms.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

@ Taomeow

 

yes. that's why I thought it might be related to "pre-heavenly" but I guess there is probably a sort of Chinese prefix for that.

 

edit: also, to your post #90 here, footnotes for key terms would do this nicely. It's always nice to learn more about these terms.

"pre-heavenly" is 先天(xian tian): inherence; innate; inborn.

[ChiDragon]

Quite on the contrary.

 

The whole idea of alchemy is based on another one -- that of corruption, alchemical processes being the antidote, offering (if they work) incorruptibility. One starts with a corrupted state, the state of loss of innocence, and works alchemically to reverse it and restore the original innocence. Innocence (like that of a child, an infant, even an unborn child, a fetus in the womb) is what taoism equates with one's original nature. In other words, unlike in, e.g., Christianity where you are supposed to be weighed down by an "original sin," taoism presupposes "original purity." So "innocent" and "original" both convey this idea, while "celestial" hints that we are not talking any "mundane" definitions of "innocent and original."

 

Anyway, what is the "heavenly reality" to me....???

The "heavenly reality" is what I have being given by nature, such as my body, my respiratory system, and the universal Chi. It would be naivete if I don't preserve my body by not using what was given to me. If I don't utilize my innate respiratory system to breathe in the universal Chi for longevity, then, it would be due to the ignorance of my innocence.

[ChiDragon]

问：堤防：答曰：驱除杂念而专心不二也。

 

Question: What is the dike?

 

Answer: To expel miscellaneous thoughts while focusing the mind in one-pointedness.

 

Is the dike or levee a correct translation for "堤防". Let's goes backwards, by looking at the answer first. The purpose of a dike is to prevent a flood from the water over flow of a river. It induces the notion of "prevention" rather than what is the object itself. The classic Chinese, here, was using "堤防" as "to prevent" as a verb instead of a noun.

 

答曰：驱除杂念而专心不二也。

Answer: Dismiss any distracting thoughts but concentrate on one without another.

 

Is this an preventive measure...??? Yes, it is; the mind was trying to prevent itself from loosing its concentration.

 

If it is, we should play the jeopardy game on TV by knowing the answer first then ask the question. In this case, the question is "What is prevention?" Hence, the proper translation would read something in this manner:

 

Question: "What is prevention?"

Answer: Dismiss any distracting thoughts but concentrate on one or none without another.

Edited February 6, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Hey. Just an idea - what about turning this into a Personal Practice Discussion so we can open different threads for the meanings of each chapter?

[ChiDragon]

Hey. Just an idea - what about turning this into a Personal Practice Discussion so we can open different threads for the meanings of each chapter?

It sounds good. Let's not disturb Rainy_Day's work in progress....

[Harmonious Emptiness]

It sounds good. Let's not disturb Rainy_Day's work in progress....

 

Or at least so each chapter has it's own thread which will make creating a final pdf easier than scattered posts all throughout one thread. I could even volunteer to start copy-pasting the chapters into the new threads. Maybe everyone could then copy-paste their own posts into the corresponding chapter thread. I guess there would be about 30 threads in the end, each with its translation and terminology discussions much like the TTC forum, but we could agree to summarize the thread to a final post in each?

 

To be quite honest, I may not be as active all the way through, since frankly I get tired of the wording disputes, but I could help set it up and come in where it seems helpful..

[ChiDragon]

Or at least so each chapter has it's own thread which will make creating a final pdf easier than scattered posts all throughout one thread. I could even volunteer to start copy-pasting the chapters into the new threads. Maybe everyone could then copy-paste their own posts into the corresponding chapter thread. I guess there would be about 30 threads in the end, each with its translation and terminology discussions much like the TTC forum, but we could agree to summarize the thread to a final post in each?

 

To be quite honest, I may not be as active all the way through, since frankly I get tired of the wording disputes, but I could help set it up and come in where it seems helpful..

HE...

At least, it's a good start. Sometimes, we just have to ignore some of the arguments if they don't make any sense or irrelevant to the point of interest to save some cyber space. It may be rude but hey.....!!!