Spirituality and Religion

[Aaron]

I was thinking about this earlier today, in particular how spirituality is slowly changed when it comes into contact with religion, in other words, the natural spiritual impulses we are born with are molded and shaped to fit within a spiritual paradigm, which essentially perverts and distorts those natural experiences and convinces us that what we are experiencing is a spiritual process, but in really it is nothing more than religious dogma.

 

Part of this idea has to do with the a belief that we need religion. One argument you could make is that we need religion in order to fulfill some deep desire for security within us. My belief is that we don't need religion to do this, that left to our own devices we will develop a spiritual awareness of the world on our own. In essence there is no need for dogma or ideology to push us in the right direction, rather we will naturally follow the spiritual process within us that is there from birth. Much like a stream follows the valley to the river, then the river to the ocean.

 

What I believe happens is that invariably we are told what the ocean is before we ever have a chance to reach it, and by doing this we are distorting the spiritual experience that is inherent within us and creating another experience, which is not spiritual, but rather intellectual, that creates a new path by damming those areas of spiritual inquiry, forcing us on a route chosen by an individual river. So the natural path through our own valley of spiritual awareness is never allowed to occur, and instead we are taken on a journey created and dictated for us by the beliefs, ideologies, and moral dogma of a particular religious or philosophical school.

 

Because this often happens when we are still very young, most are unaware that it is even occurring or we might even come to believe that spirituality is not an innate quality, but rather one that must be taught, because of this erroneous belief we therefore never return to that unadulterated level of spirituality that we begin with.

 

An example I used of this alteration was the belief of self. We teach children at an early age to identify parts of themselves as being separate from themselves, but at some point, if you grab a child's hand and ask what it is, they will think, this is me, but we correct them and say, no this is your hand. This is in essence the first step to our separation from our innate spirituality, because invariably we begin to view ourselves as separate from the reality around us and in feeling this separation we begin to have an natural need to return to the state of oneness we were born with.

 

Rather than continue, I will leave the rest open to discussion. My main purpose for this thread is to discuss how other people feel about spirituality and its relationship to religion, whether there is an actual need for religious inquiry or whether one can meet their spiritual needs without a religious or spiritual (or cultural) identity. I look forward to hearing other people's ideas.

 

Aaron

Edited January 27, 2012 by Twinner

[Chang]

History appears to teach us that it is the doom of organised religion to move from the spiritual towards the secular.

 

Unfortunately it also tends towards the Fascist model with "Thou Shalt" and "Thou Shalt Not" being the whole of the law.

[Vmarco]

Rather than continue, I will leave the rest open to discussion. My main purpose for this thread is to discuss how other people feel about spirituality and its relationship to religion, whether there is an actual need for religious inquiry or whether one can meet their spiritual needs without a religious or spiritual (or cultural) identity. I look forward to hearing other people's ideas.

 

Aaron

 

"Spiritual religion" is an oxymoron. Religion is literally a set of beliefs,...true spirituality is the absence of beliefs.

 

In other words,...and religionist proclaiming to be spiritual is being dishonest. Unfortunately, as Krisnamuti implied, most feel that the measure of health is to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

[humbleone]

My main purpose for this thread is to discuss how other people feel about spirituality and its relationship to religion, whether there is an actual need for religious inquiry or whether one can meet their spiritual needs without a religious or spiritual (or cultural) identity. I look forward to hearing other people's ideas.

 

 

just to share my confusion, sure one can meet their spiritual needs without a religion. but it will be a lonely existence. somehow disconnected from the rest of the society.

 

my thinking, religion is much much more on a macro level. spiritualism is all about the individual, religion is all about organization, the social, the cultural aspect. it comes complete with a set of moral ethical codes.

 

so I am a spiritulist, my wife is a agnostic. I have no clue what to teach our children. frankly at times I miss religion, and the comfort it brings...

[humbleone]

Hi humbleone. Why is your spiritual, non-religious, existence a lonely one? Do you bring your spirituality into every facet of your life? Is your life not more robust for it? Help me to understand your point of view. Thanks.

 

hi, so yes, I try to bring spirituality into other areas of my life, my life is more robust, but I think this is just it. I mean after doing qigong for about a year, my health has steadily improved, my mental focus and concentration is better than it has ever been.

 

but I feel it is more of a singular path, I mean some of our neighbours go to church or synagogue on the weekends. there is a sense of community, social order. I mean united states in one nation under god. in qigoing we are told to do communion with trees, to sap their energy

 

frankly I am starting to believe that qigong is nothing more than a discovery of a natural law the ancient chinese. a natural law like law of gravity, law of areodynamices, you get the picture. so it allows us to regain our health, and allows john chang to light newspapers!

 

more I practice the closer I feel I am getting to god, but I feel something is missing. this god is a god of organised religion. muslims, hindus etc all believe in one god, spirituality is I believe is something I do to enhance myself, not so much to pay homage to that one god...

[Cameron]

I grew up around pretty religious people. Catholicsm on one side and Islam on the other.

 

What I love about my Taoist teachers is that they go for "the direct experience". Which is something rarely spoken of in religion. Atleast from what I see from my family it's mostly about belief system. Having any sort of direct experience is sort of irrelevent to what you believe in.

 

I have a hard time discounting all spirituality in religion as I think that there are many wonderful religious people. All I know is that approach didn't work for me personally..I needed direct experience!

[mYTHmAKER]

 

more I practice the closer I feel I am getting to god, but I feel something is missing. this god is a god of organised religion. muslims, hindus etc all believe in one god, spirituality is I believe is something I do to enhance myself, not so much to pay homage to that one god...

 

They fight and kill each other for their god and try to impose their beliefs on others due to fear.

Friends are what is missing.

Join a qigong group or whatever it is you enjoy.

You will find like minded people.

Spirituality is to honor yourself and others in whatever you do.

[Protector]

...and I disagree with all of you

 

Religion is sort of a keeper of humanity's spirituality and religious leaders feel like they are in charge of spiritual advancement of their underlings, if I may call them that.

It's like a big collection of smart and stupid people who have answers, or think they do, to questions that normal folk has and the normal folk relies on these people for help.

The problem happens when there are too many of these dumb people mixed up with the bunch that makes it impossible to get anything coherent out of them, and to figure out which one is the smart one and which one is going to make you read some book until your eyes bleed then send you out to live like a bum in the name of something greater.

This sounds terrible and confusing but it could be worse, like when people seek out spirituality so much that they destroy it all together just because there is a 80 year old insane man screaming profanities on the side of the road somewhere in the US.

The whole thing seems out of control but its still could get better if everyone could calm down and listen to each other. There are religions that can give up on being the one and only and become like an upgrade for what a person already knows.

Religion is a sort of upgrade after all, there are people with their own experience that know a lot and when they throw away their ego, they can put themselves in the shoes of other people who tried to do the same thing and succeeded or at least went a little further.

[Aaron]

Hello Folks,

 

Thanks for all the responses. I'd like to address a few that I feel hit on the meat of the argument, the first is the idea of community. In my opinion the strength of religion lies in the community. When I first left church the one thing I missed most, wasn't the sermons or the prayer and closeness with God, but rather communion with the other members of that church. It was hard to leave something I felt so much a part of, but after time I did get over it and found myself stronger for it. That's not to say that I wouldn't love the idea of going back to a church (and I have on occasion), but it's never to pray or hear the sermon, rather it's for the closeness of community.

 

See, religions feed on one of the deeper issues many people feel, loneliness. On one level it allows you to feel a closeness to others, but on another it allows you to feel closeness to God/Allah/Buddha or whomever. This isn't intentionally evil or sinister, it just is. The problem is that religions oftentimes use that closeness to manipulate the thoughts and beliefs of its people, in other words "one nation under God" and also creating moral dogmas others are supposed to adhere to.

 

My problem with most religions, whether it's Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, or Islam, is that each believes that one needs to follow a strict moral code in order to achieve purity/salvation/enlightenment and in posing this code, it actually prevents people from awakening their true spiritual self, because that self is not free to be what it is, but what it is defined to be.

 

Anyways, I could go on, but I'll leave it there for now.

 

Aaron

[Aetherous]

I like religion, and think it can lead to "spirituality" if followed.

 

Individuals sometimes use religion as a front, and actually follow an opposite path in their thoughts and actions. Of course that path doesn't lead to spirituality...but it shouldn't be called religion, either.

 

For instance, Christianity says "do not murder"...and yet, people throughout history have murdered in the name of Christianity. That is not representative of the religion...that represents the individuals who murdered and claimed to be representing something they were not. The only thing that represents the religion is, "do not murder".

 

Being murderous can destroy your spirituality, and not being murderous can benefit it. So religion and spirituality are not polar opposites, as is often assumed.

 

Morality is not meant to be a burden, it's meant to guide you towards making choices that don't burden you.

 

For instance, murdering someone will very likely bring regret, in addition to a whole slew of subtle and not so subtle issues. Basically, you will not be at peace.

 

Our conscience and our intuition are good to listen to...and sometimes our need for release is not...take a heroin addict for example.

 

This can seem like a burden in the moment...but in the long run it's beneficial.

 

The Dhammapada has really good words on this subject!

[Vmarco]

Edited January 28, 2012 by Vmarco

[zanshin]

Part of the reason we made religions is people feel compelled to get together and say a few words at life events like weddings and funerals and it can be great to get together for community and support for people at this time. Recently I went to a calling hours after an elderly friend's son passed away. A very nice Christian lady sat with my friend and talked to him about 1/2 hr about memories of his son and went on about how they loved him and would really love for him to come to church more. And while she was very kind and supportive, it seemed kind of vampire-y. Have had it happen in my own experience too, something bad happens and probably well meaning friends seem to see it as an opportunity to suck you in. I wonder how many really buy into it or if they're in it for the support and sense of community. Even when I was a kid Christianity did not make sense, still doesn't, just can't do it. Nature is my religion, not a hypothetical being worshipped in a madmade building, out walking in the woods or by large bodies of water is where I feel spiritual and return to harmony.

 

(started to fix my typo, but left it, think it's better this way).

[Aaron]

Part of the reason we made religions is people feel compelled to get together and say a few words at life events like weddings and funerals and it can be great to get together for community and support for people at this time. Recently I went to a calling hours after an elderly friend's son passed away. A very nice Christian lady sat with my friend and talked to him about 1/2 hr about memories of his son and went on about how they loved him and would really love for him to come to church more. And while she was very kind and supportive, it seemed kind of vampire-y. Have had it happen in my own experience too, something bad happens and probably well meaning friends seem to see it as an opportunity to suck you in. I wonder how many really buy into it or if they're in it for the support and sense of community. Even when I was a kid Christianity did not make sense, still doesn't, just can't do it. Nature is my religion, not a hypothetical being worshipped in a madmade building, out walking in the woods or by large bodies of water is where I feel spiritual and return to harmony.

 

(started to fix my typo, but left it, think it's better this way).

 

Well that's great that you're able to feel a spiritual connection to the world around you, most people these days aren't. I think you're validating a lot of my own arguments, in particular I agree with you view that religious people tend to use misfortune and loss as an excuse to recruit others to their belief system. I don't think it's intentionally evil or sinister, but they certainly see it as an opportunity, sort of like a lawyer who follows the ambulance.

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

Although for many, Buddhism is a religion,...for others, including Buddha, it is irreligious.

 

On morality, a Buddhist said:

"Morality can only be imposed from without when we are asleep. It can only be pseudo, false, a façade, it cannot become your real being…morality is bound to be nothing but a deep suppression. You cannot do anything while asleep; you can only suppress. And through morality, you will become false. You will not be a person, but simply a "persona"—just a pseudo-entity. . . . Only a dishonest person can be moral."

 

In my opinion, spiritual people are not moral. A spiritual person strives to follow spirit without hesitation,...a religionist can not do that,...they follow hesitation without spirit (as John Davies said).

 

I would say for most followers Buddhism is a religion and for the very small minority it's irreligious. I like the deep suppression comment, because I think it really hits home on the effects of enforced morality, the suppression of the natural self.

 

Aaron

Edited January 29, 2012 by Twinner

[三江源]

So many good things in religions. Have been downgraded by their inner teachings being externalised. The tendency we have to be literal in our understandings is the ongoing issue.

 

morality equals teh, but considered widely to be externally imposed, in fact the practice of/internalisation of/deep realisation of said moralities create teh.

 

the 'falsity' of morality can only be when it is not integrated with the inner being, when there is a split in the being between inner and outer.

 

integration being the key.

[Vmarco]

So many good things in religions.

 

Yes,...ego thinks that so,...but as Osho said, "it's the wrong thing,...it's opium,...it keeps you unaware of reality"

[Aetherous]

Osho quotes keep you unaware of reality.

[Rainy_Day]

I must say my point of view is somewhat different from others who have commented above.

 

If we look back at all the great teachers who have come to our world, including Daoist teachers, the vast majority of them did not see religion and spirituality as being in conflict. In fact, most of them were deeply pious in their own right.

 

There are some inner teachings which aren't appropriate for most believers, but it doesn't mean that people with access to inner teachings are somehow better. It's just that the two groups are at different stages in their development - and not necessarily that those with inner teachings are further along.

 

In my view, exoteric teachings, e.g. moral codes, are required for building a solid foundation for esoteric practices. If a person doesn't have the discipline to follow basic moral codes, how can he be expected to attain the goals of esoteric practices? (This is quite different from when a master has already attained the goal and can dispense with common customs in order to enlighten his students.)

[chi 2012]

Spirituality is having no beliefs. With "no beliefs" we can be in the moment and actually see what is.

 

In another thread I just posted a link to a book that talks about this.

 

http://www.scribd.com/esdfs/d/39063815-Misita-How-to-Believe-in-Nothing-and-Set-Yourself-Free

 

Awesome book that most people have never heard of.

[Mokona]

If you need the church to be sociable then their is a deeper issue that needs looking at. If you actually talk to the people who go to church and you've had mind blowing experiences of another reality and of 'God' its easy to realize that being preached at on Sundays doesn't do a damn to bring you closer to God, that is done by the individual. Hell, even the priests and preachers I run across are normally no more interesting than librarians in slacks.

 

Now I ran across a preacher with active Kundalini, once - thats a guy who has actually experienced some spirit.

[三江源]

Yes,...ego thinks that so,...but as Osho said, "it's the wrong thing,...it's opium,...it keeps you unaware of reality"

 

Only in the same sense that reading and writing posts keep one unaware of reality. if one's objective is to be aware of 'reality' then one will work on maintaining the connection one believes is with reality, religion or no.

 

Religion is opium in the sense that everything can be opium...if one seeks an opiate one will find it ubiquitous.

 

The blanket statement from Osho is an early stage teaching for those who are coming out from under groupthink and external locus of evaluation perception.

 

If we were to take some religious teachings as inner meditations, instead of using them as opiates, then we would be getting somewhere.

 

This is the same as the pit bull discussion. Take something as the Flag it has become distortedly used as, or relate to it without the accrued detritus.

[humbleone]

good thread, this has really helped me sort out my confusion.

 

One thing that troubles me about pursuing the singular spiritualist path, is being cut off from the rest of society. Internal alchemy, self-realization calls for prolonged periods of isolated practice. I have this image of monks carrying the beggars bowl and not contributing to the general society. In my mind, there is something selfish about being a spiritualist.

 

Religion despite its obvious problems is totally integrated within a society. Take any natural disaster. Hurricane Katrina for example in the United States. Within hours of the hurricane, Catholic charities were the first to arrive. Salvation army shortly after wards. I have read stories of the Amish from Pennsylvania, are still there years later, quietly re-building houses. I never hear of buddhist monks or doaist racing to help out others. presumbly they are too busy sitting in zendo with their shaven heads, trying to save themselves...

[Cameron]

I am not Muslim but really enjoyed visiting a Mosque in Seoul last year. The beautiful architecture, the art and feeling of community and shared feeling of the divine.

 

I get similar feeling when I visit the Buddhist and Taoist Temples in China. If you remove belief system and self centeredness from the equation what is left:beauty.

 

A good friend of mine was suprised when I kneeled and bowed before the Buddha statue at Forbidden City. "You believe in the Chinese God?" She asked.

 

But when I go to Church, Mosque or Temples I prefer not to ask for anything for myself. Not saying that is good or a higher form of prayer or anything. I just bow as a kind of practice of letting go. By the same token you could look at Jesus as a figure to be worshipped or an amazing expression of letting go.

[Vmarco]

Spirituality is having no beliefs. With "no beliefs" we can be in the moment and actually see what is.

 

In another thread I just posted a link to a book that talks about this.

 

http://www.scribd.com/esdfs/d/39063815-Misita-How-to-Believe-in-Nothing-and-Set-Yourself-Free

 

Awesome book that most people have never heard of.

 

Kindred Spirits!,...thanks for the link.

 

Beliefs deny, suppress, disempower, disconnect. Religion = a set of beliefs.

 

Spirit is the in-breath/out-breath (yang/yin) of duality that shows the way home. Spirituality = a practice leading to the threshold where the Six Senses are transcended.

 

Belief limits our understanding. Jim Walker, in The Problems with Beliefs, mentions: Aristotle believed in a prime mover, a god that moves the sun, the moon, and other objects through space. However, with such a belief, one cannot possibly understand the laws of gravitation or inertia. Isaac Newton saw through faulty mental model of reality and developed a workable gravitational theory; however, his belief in absolute time prevented him from formulating a theory of relativity. Einstein saw through that impediment and conceived of relative time. Therefore, he formulated his famous general theory of relativity, yet his own beliefs could not accept pure randomness in subatomic physics and thus barred him from understanding the consequences of quantum mechanics.

 

V

[Vmarco]

 

The blanket statement from Osho is an early stage teaching for those who are coming out from under groupthink and external locus of evaluation perception.

 

If we were to take some religious teachings as inner meditations, instead of using them as opiates, then we would be getting somewhere.

 

This is the same as the pit bull discussion. Take something as the Flag it has become distortedly used as, or relate to it without the accrued detritus.

 

"blanket statement from Osho"....you mean, That Anyone Who Gives You a Belief System is Your Enemy?

 

Sure,...that certainly is "an Early Stage Teaching." And thus suggests that the majority of people, which definitely include "Vicious Breed owners", are still covered in the mud of the groupthink.

 

As the 1st Century Gnostic text says,..."when you can disrobe without being ashamed and take up your garments (beliefs) and place them under your feet like little child and tread on them, then you will no longer be afraid".

 

V