Spirituality and Religion

[Protector]

The Tao Bums is a religion

[mYTHmAKER]

The Tao Bums is a religion

 

and a cult

[Harmonious Emptiness]

and a cult

 

I really don't think it's gone that far, but what makes you think so?

 

I think there is too much critical thinking, and total disregard for any levels of authority for it to be a cult. There is no forced indoctrination or inner circles or homogenization of beliefs even.

 

 

I'll just say in regards to the OP, that religion is essentially commodified spirituality, imo, which is not necessarily a bad, or good, thing.

 

The trouble is just that the structure which has been created in order to mass distribute the spirituality becomes worshiped instead of the virtue it was meant to proliferate.

 

It's like a faster way was created to hold music (mp3 vs. cd) and so people enjoy the music but are so attached to the convenience of mp3s that they will fight even the possibility of other ways of distribution. Still, the live show and the master-tapes are where it's at, but these channels for mass distribution have issues co-existing. It's not a perfect system, but it does the trick until everyone learns how to play music themselves, or something.

[Birch]

I think it's not doing very well as a cult. No fast cars or hot sex or large amounts of money and power changing hands. Is there?

 

Maybe I'm just not in on the 'inner' circle.

[Cameron]

I see your not friends with Sean.

 

My morality and sense of proper conduct are still in shambles after hanging out with that guy!

 

*kiding*

[Birch]

Lest the 'other pit' is forgotten

 

No, I'm a sort of a virtual non-joining type:-) No particular affiliations. Although very very happy to have met and spent time online on the TTBs. I reckon I wouldn't have gotten through certain very strange experiences without it :-)

 

If you change 'fast cars' to 'slow boats', I might reconsider

[Aetherous]

The Tao Bums is a religion

 

and a cult

 

It used to be a spirituality.

[JustARandomPanda]

Attention

 

Attention

 

Attention

 

Attention

 

Attention

 

Attention

 

................................................................

[mYTHmAKER]

and a cult

 

Hey i was kidding

 

However here is the dictionary definition of cult. Sounds like the major (and minor) religions to me

Cult

1.a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

2.an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.

3.the object of such devotion.

4.a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

5.Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

[Aaron]

It used to be a spirituality.

 

I wouldn't classify Tao Bums as either a religion or cult, but rather a society. There's a difference, since there is no direct influence of any one religion upon the masses here. We're free to choose our own beliefs, even if some people might try to push us in one direction or another.

 

In regards to the topic, I'm finding more and more each day that the three main methods religions use to control people are sexuality, morality, and spirituality. If you can dictate a man or woman's beliefs about these three things, then you can invariably lead them down whatever road you choose. Just look at the young men that come here and post about their struggles with sex. If we live in such a progressive and spiritually free culture, then why do so many young men grow up feeling so guilty about a perfectly natural function?

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

Hey i was kidding

 

However here is the dictionary definition of cult. Sounds like the major (and minor) religions to me

Cult

1.a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

2.an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.

3.the object of such devotion.

4.a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

5.Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

 

I guess my question is to what degree? A major sign of whether a church or religious institution is a cult, is the amount of direct influence those institutions have on their members. I'm not even saying being in a cult is a bad thing. There are many happy people that are in cults today, the main issue, in fact, isn't that they're in a cult, so much as they're not doing what other people think they should be doing. So many times someone isn't even in a "cult" per se, but because they are not following the status quo, it's assumed that they are.

 

Aaron

[konchog uma]

My problem with most religions, whether it's Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, or Islam, is that each believes that one needs to follow a strict moral code in order to achieve purity/salvation/enlightenment and in posing this code, it actually prevents people from awakening their true spiritual self, because that self is not free to be what it is, but what it is defined to be.

 

whats's wrong with following a strict moral code? if everyone followed one of those we'd have a lot less problems!

[konchog uma]

Yes,...ego thinks that so,...but as Osho said, "it's the wrong thing,...it's opium,...it keeps you unaware of reality"

 

"Don't take spiritual advice from people with biochemical warfare labs in their basements. and 78 rolls royces."

-anamatva

[konchog uma]

I know some deeply spiritual people who are religious. And i know some people who do spiritual practice but don't even display the most basic of virtues. So i don't think its as easy as a black/white divide where religion is the horrible witch-burner and spirituality is the great panacea.

 

Thank you cat for pointing out that religion does a lot of good things for people. Not everyone has the insight to seek for themselves and have a direct experience of the nature of things, that usually takes a lot of effort, energy, and work. So have some compassion, you spirituality freaks! Remember that stuff??

 

Some people are spiritual by nature, and some people need religion. There is room enough on earth for both and they both do good things. Just because they have a lot of power, and naturally attract people who want to abuse power widely, doesn't mean that we're better off without them. It points to a problem in human nature, not a problem with religion or spirituality.

 

So everyone who wants to make absolutist statements about how religion is just an opiate should look into their own human nature! And deeply! Not this surface level, "im-going-to-quote-marx (or osho) and-leave-it-at-that" rhetoric. Even opiates have a medicinal use. I don't personally like them, or need them right now, but i know better than to insult them and their users.

 

In short, i see most religious people as doing the best they can with what they've been given. Even the hypocrites and homophobes and haters... at least they have the example of their particular sages and seers in their lives and they aren't just out there in the total darkness.

 

its too easy to be a critic.

[mYTHmAKER]

whats's wrong with following a strict moral code? if everyone followed one of those we'd have a lot less problems!

 

Depends on whether the the code is forced on others who are not in the religion or who do not believe in that particular moral code.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

"Don't take spiritual advice from people with biochemical warfare labs in their basements. and 78 rolls royces."

-anamatva

 

Damn! you can say that again.

 

"1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack

 

The 1984 Rajneeshee bioterror attack was the food poisoning of 751 individuals in The Dalles, Oregon, United States, through the deliberate contamination of salad bars at ten local restaurants with salmonella. A leading group of followers of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh (now known as Osho) had hoped to incapacitate the voting population of the city so that their own candidates would win the 1984 Wasco County elections.[2] The incident was the first, and single largest bioterrorist attack in United States history.[3][4] The attack is one of only two confirmed terrorist uses of biological weapons to harm humans.[5]"

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1984_Rajneeshee_bioterror_attack

[Aetherous]

Aaron,

 

If we live in such a progressive and spiritually free culture, then why do so many young men grow up feeling so guilty about a perfectly natural function?

 

I will tell you: Taoism.

[三江源]

If we live in such a progressive and spiritually free culture, then why do so many young men grow up feeling so guilty about a perfectly natural function?

 

Aaron

 

We dont live in a progressive and spiritually free culture with regards to sex. We live in a highly marketed at culture where any young person with a thoughtful disposition sees, consciously or not, degradation and exploitation of male and female sexuality for money, thrown at them from all over the place. They see very unhappy girls with anorexia and body dysmorphia with anxiety disorders and social phobias and taking depression meds in alarming proportions, and they see pressure to be ever and increasingly sexual in competetive ways that their young developing systems just arent ready for. They see men judged for how they look with their shirt off and girls judged for the same, and increasing inability to believe in love as enduring or relationships as stable. They see their friends with porn or their own sex acts filmed to laugh at on their mobile phones, and their peers sending their nude photos to websites to be judged on their bodies. What young people have to endure today as the sexual climate in which they are to grow is alarming to me, as someone who grew up in a softer time when feelings were considered healthy and desirable, and now are considered a burden to 'freedom', which is merely freedom to consume. What does sexual and spiritual freedom actually look like? What would it truly be? Is it about availabilty and plenty of variety or ..not. I dont see sexual freedom as what is going on right now, far from it. It looks like enslavement to me, to something sold by mainstream media as desirable.

How do we find out what is freedom for us? Not by consuming what the normative culture sells us. The 'guilt' is, to me, when uprooted to show its true face, a sign of health.. I think it may actually be grief, unrecognised.

[Aaron]

whats's wrong with following a strict moral code? if everyone followed one of those we'd have a lot less problems!

 

Because then we need to decide which moral code we all need to follow. Should we follow the Muslim moral code, the Judaic, the Buddhist, the Taoist, the Hindu, the Wiccan, the Shamanists, the humanists... well the list goes on. The problem is that morality is subjective. All we really need to do is behave as we wish too, so long as our actions don't harm others or ourselves. Even that isn't necessary, but it's what I choose to do and I don't try to force that opinion on others. Religions are in the business of brainwashing, plain and simple. They tell you what's right and you either believe and are accepted into the family, or don't and you're excommunicated, killed, persecuted, or various other ills. This isn't just in the Eastern religions either, there are numerous historical accounts of Buddhists, Hindus, and various other religions doing the same as well.

 

If someone tells you that you are doing something wrong and what you're doing causes no harm to you or someone else, then why is it wrong? Simply because some person who might've lived 2,000 years ago (Buddha, Christ, Lao Tzu, etc.) said it was? Now that seems to be the pinnacle of ignorance to me.

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

I know some deeply spiritual people who are religious. And i know some people who do spiritual practice but don't even display the most basic of virtues. So i don't think its as easy as a black/white divide where religion is the horrible witch-burner and spirituality is the great panacea.

 

Thank you cat for pointing out that religion does a lot of good things for people. Not everyone has the insight to seek for themselves and have a direct experience of the nature of things, that usually takes a lot of effort, energy, and work. So have some compassion, you spirituality freaks! Remember that stuff??

 

Some people are spiritual by nature, and some people need religion. There is room enough on earth for both and they both do good things. Just because they have a lot of power, and naturally attract people who want to abuse power widely, doesn't mean that we're better off without them. It points to a problem in human nature, not a problem with religion or spirituality.

 

So everyone who wants to make absolutist statements about how religion is just an opiate should look into their own human nature! And deeply! Not this surface level, "im-going-to-quote-marx (or osho) and-leave-it-at-that" rhetoric. Even opiates have a medicinal use. I don't personally like them, or need them right now, but i know better than to insult them and their users.

 

In short, i see most religious people as doing the best they can with what they've been given. Even the hypocrites and homophobes and haters... at least they have the example of their particular sages and seers in their lives and they aren't just out there in the total darkness.

 

its too easy to be a critic.

 

Most religions are rife with the immoral, in fact immoral people are drawn to religions because it eases their sense of guilt and also provides them with a good cover to get away with doing evil. This isn't just the Christian and Muslim religions, but also Buddhism, just look at the rampant abuse of children in Tibetan Monasteries and Buddhist orphanages. What I see in religion is a darkness that suppresses mankind's natural kindness, twists it and tells it that kindness is something defined by dogma rather than the consequences of one's actions. You killed an infidel, there's nothing wrong with that. You slept with a woman out of wedlock, time to stone her to death. This is as true in the Eastern Religions as it the Western Religions. Show me one good religion that is acting absolutely without ulterior motives, and I'll show you a horse with wings that can fly you to heaven.

 

Now think for a moment why you feel religions are good. Look at your relationship with religion, what you get out of it, and what you lose if you leave it. Ask yourself if what you lose is really a loss, or something you've been convinced you'll lose. Don't answer right away, your indoctrination is probably pretty strong in this regard, instead take a second and look at yourself within the scope of the universe, examine your actions, what you do daily, and then decide, is it better to have someone tell you what is right or wrong, or to examine your own actions and how they effect others.

 

I for one do not see how murdering someone for any reason other than self defense can be justified. I for one do not see how sharing a sexual experience with someone else can be harmful, simply because my relationship with that person hasn't been approved and ordained by a religion. If you can tell me how it is, then I'm all ears.

 

Religions are the foundation upon which guilt is born. The misery that most feel about themselves, the inadequacy and self doubt, more often than not, can be traced back to a religion, even if the person who is feeling those things wasn't necessarily brought up in one. Religions influence culture (look at America and India), and as a result propagate much of the self loathing, deviancy, and hatred in this world.

 

 

Aaron

[Aetherous]

The problem is that morality is subjective.

 

How are you certain of this?

 

Also, did you know that the "golden rule" is included in all of the world's major religions?

 

To address the excellent points you made against religion: forcing our opinions on others, excommunicating, killing, persecuted, or other ills....all of those things are against the "golden rule". They are unethical, and equally despised by all people if it happens to them (so this is an example of how morality is objective).

 

It's just the nature of the human mind, that the institutions and people which teach ethics can tend to act unethically. The mind typically does the opposite of what we attempt, in order to maintain balance (a great example of this is watching people making new years resolutions to lose weight). This isn't an excuse...just an explanation.

[Aaron]

Aaron,

 

 

 

I will tell you: Taoism.

 

Not just Taoism, but Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, Sikhism, Christianity, and the list goes on. Religions by nature separate people from their true spiritual nature. One cannot be spiritual and religious, the two can never exist hand in hand. Spirituality is free and cannot be defined by dogma or ideology, once someone decides to teach spirituality then they have immediately begun to teach the exact opposite. This is why I say enlightenment is a sham, because invariably, if you are led to enlightenment because of a path, then it is not real enlightenment, but rather one created by the actions one has followed. Buddhist enlightenment is simply Buddhist enlightenment, Taoist enlightenment is simply Taoist enlightenment, Christian enlightenment is... well you get the point.

 

True awareness does not come from books or teachers but an innate understanding of one's place within the universe, the nature of the universe, and what simply is. You can't be taught this, it can only be experienced. If one is led to this experience, then one can never be entirely certain whether it is authentic or a prescribed and defined experience.

 

If I tell you that you will reach enlightenment and that when you do, this and this will happen, nine times out of ten, what you expect to happen will and that in the end is the problem.

 

Now to get back to sexuality. Sex is the most beautiful experience we can have and one of the most spiritual. It's perhaps the biggest threat to religion because one who can experience sex without guilt or regret will be able to see through the smoke and mirrors of religion. In fact the biggest detriment to monks is the fact they never experience life, so the enlightenment they experience is not defined by the natural order, but rather a pious dogma.

 

Religions are the basest of organizations. They teach children to hate themselves, that they are not good enough and need to be better, that those feelings that are completely natural are evil and sinful. And we wonder why so many grow up sad and empty, looking for something else to fill the void that has been created. It'sad, yet most people will read this and tell me, not what's in their heart, but what they've been taught to believe. It's so ingrained within them that they can't even take a moment and reflect, because if they do they might figure out that everything that they've believed up until this point is really nothing but superstition and moral ideology. They might just realize that good and bad don't really exist and then where does that leave them? Are they good? If they're not good, are they bad? What if they're neither, where do they go from there? It's very hard to wake up from this dream and realize that they simply are who they are and nothing more, that there is no need to follow any designated path, that the path that their heart leads them on is enough. It's very hard to understand that their mothers lied to them and that their fathers lied to them, that everything about their life is merely a husk of what actually is. Yet when one can do that, then they can see all this guilt, sadness, and delusion melt away like ice on a summer day, leaving behind, not cold hardened water, but a cool pool of fresh potential.

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

How are you certain of this?

 

Also, did you know that the "golden rule" is included in all of the world's major religions?

 

To address the excellent points you made against religion: forcing our opinions on others, excommunicating, killing, persecuted, or other ills....all of those things are against the "golden rule". They are unethical, and equally despised by all people if it happens to them (so this is an example of how morality is objective).

 

It's just the nature of the human mind, that the institutions and people which teach ethics can tend to act unethically. The mind typically does the opposite of what we attempt, in order to maintain balance (a great example of this is watching people making new years resolutions to lose weight). This isn't an excuse...just an explanation.

 

I'm certain because even the "golden rule" isn't without flaw. We shouldn't do unto others as we would have them do unto us, but rather do nothing that harms us or others. That's the simplest rule of all. Religion can distort the golden rule, it can tell us that we should seek criticism of our flaws, when the things we see as flaws aren't really flaws at all. It can tell us that something we're doing is good, when in fact it causes harm. "If I were going to do something wrong, I'd want someone to stop me from doing it." But what if what you think is wrong isn't? So long as we allow a moral code to dictate right and wrong, then consequences don't matter, rather intention does. We shouldn't live in world based on value judgments regarding intentions.

 

Aaron

[Aetherous]

Well, if a person misinterprets the golden rule, then they weren't really following it were they?

 

I like your idea of "do not harm yourself or others".

[Aaron]

We dont live in a progressive and spiritually free culture with regards to sex. We live in a highly marketed at culture where any young person with a thoughtful disposition sees, consciously or not, degradation and exploitation of male and female sexuality for money, thrown at them from all over the place. They see very unhappy girls with anorexia and body dysmorphia with anxiety disorders and social phobias and taking depression meds in alarming proportions, and they see pressure to be ever and increasingly sexual in competetive ways that their young developing systems just arent ready for. They see men judged for how they look with their shirt off and girls judged for the same, and increasing inability to believe in love as enduring or relationships as stable. They see their friends with porn or their own sex acts filmed to laugh at on their mobile phones, and their peers sending their nude photos to websites to be judged on their bodies. What young people have to endure today as the sexual climate in which they are to grow is alarming to me, as someone who grew up in a softer time when feelings were considered healthy and desirable, and now are considered a burden to 'freedom', which is merely freedom to consume. What does sexual and spiritual freedom actually look like? What would it truly be? Is it about availabilty and plenty of variety or ..not. I dont see sexual freedom as what is going on right now, far from it. It looks like enslavement to me, to something sold by mainstream media as desirable.

How do we find out what is freedom for us? Not by consuming what the normative culture sells us. The 'guilt' is, to me, when uprooted to show its true face, a sign of health.. I think it may actually be grief, unrecognised.

 

 

How has this changed at all in the last thirty years? Minus the cellphones, you're talking about the typical teen of the last four decades. Have you ever thought that teenagers are sexual beings? That their reaction is natural in a society that tells them that the feelings and emotions they have are dirty to begin with? You dissociate from things that cause you to feel pain, so it only makes sense that they would try to cheapen the act so that they could escape the guilt that is associated with it.

 

Somewhere in the last century we seem to have changed our opinions of teens, rather than see them as actual "young adults" we see them as "almost adults" that still need supervision. In the nineteenth century many teens were married with children and full time jobs. What's happened is that we've chosen to view our young people as being incapable of understanding the nature of sex, and as a result we don't even bother to teach them that sex is natural and beautiful.

 

If we spent half as much time teaching kids that they're alright the way they are, that as long as what they're doing doesn't harm themselves or others, it's okay, as we do trying to prevent them from misbehaving or acting immoral, I think you'd see a lot of these issues fade away.

 

Of course I blame Jesus. Think about it, have you ever seen a picture of Jesus on the cross when he doesn't have washboard abs? And Mary, have you ever seen an overweight Mary?

 

Now before you think I'm disagreeing with you, I'm not, I'm just saying the cause is deeper than just what's on the surface, and that until we address the way we've been taught to view sex within the social, religious, and cultural context, nothing will change. That means we need to stop teaching our kids it's sacred and "special" and meant to be saved for either God or that one and only, and rather talk about it frankly for what it is, a basic biological function. The fact is kids these days place a heavy emphasis on sex, one that shouldn't be there. If you think they don't feel shame and guilt because of it, then you'll never be able to see the entire picture. As I said before, kids don't experience sex naturally these days, because they have no idea what the actual nature of sex is, no one's really taught them.

 

 

Aaron