Taoism/Zen in relation to "spiritual methods"

[skydog]

EFT, certain types of meditation methods..versus the philosophy of zen/taoism

 

With methods your trying to get somewhere, achieve something, be somebody, resist something...so "you" can achieve something, get somewhere be somebody etc...so your in this state of constant intefering with yourself so "you" can attain, achieve, resist

 

With Zen or Taoism..you dont know, what is you and what is not you, you are here, you dont know whether future or past exists or doesnt exists, you dont know whether it is good or bad to "achieve or attain something" you dont need to get anywhere because everything is one already...hmmm

[Rishi Das]

Are you asking a question, or stating your opinion?

[skydog]

I dont even know lol, Googling this there seems to be many taoist "methods" and zen "methods"..so im not sure what to think

[Encephalon]

I dont even know lol, Googling this there seems to be many taoist "methods" and zen "methods"..so im not sure what to think

 

It sounds like it might be a little too early to be thinking. Perhaps a library card and a little reflection on the literature would be a good place to start.

[skydog]

I dont think there is anything wrong with anything Ive said, not knowing does not imply lack of wisdom, infact it may be a form of wisdom, also it could be possible the literature is flawed/useless, and methods have no real value

[skydog]

http://www.osho.com/online-library-knowledge-insight-listening-55a5c6ca-8f7.aspx

[Jetsun]

Very important line of inquiry in my view, there are doing methods like various meditation methods and EFT, but then people like Lao Tzu talk about the importance of non-doing or just being. How do you really achieve non-doing? because if you sit down and turn inward you will always find your mind and emotions doing things and anything you do to try to achieve non-doing or just being just takes your further away from it, so when these guys say non-doing they aren't talking about sitting around watching tv and being lazy it's something deeper than that.

[Rishi Das]

With Zen or Taoism..you dont know, what is you and what is not you, you are here, you dont know whether future or past exists or doesnt exists, you dont know whether it is good or bad to "achieve or attain something" you dont need to get anywhere because everything is one already...hmmm

 

From my take, you have a good way of articulating things you have pulled from the literature, so in that respect a library may not be best for you. Making statements is one thing, however understanding those statements through experience is completely different.

 

If your interested in this sort of stuff, find a practice you enjoy, practice it, and then simply let arise what naturally arises. On a better note, find a teacher who knows a practice, practice it, and then simply let arise what naturally arises.

Edited February 4, 2012 by don_vedo

[skydog]

Well thanks for the advice, but that is not stuff I got from literature..It is truth..alan watts points I try and articulate..

 

every thought has an opposite thought,,

[skydog]

Very important line of inquiry in my view, there are doing methods like various meditation methods and EFT, but then people like Lao Tzu talk about the importance of non-doing or just being. How do you really achieve non-doing? because if you sit down and turn inward you will always find your mind and emotions doing things and anything you do to try to achieve non-doing or just being just takes your further away from it, so when these guys say non-doing they aren't talking about sitting around watching tv and being lazy it's something deeper than that.

 

yeh because meditating is doing, and trying to not do is doing, and trying not to not do is doing...and trying not to try is doing, and being aware of all these things is a sort of doing..

[Rishi Das]

Well thanks for the advice, but that is not stuff I got from literature..It is truth..alan watts points I try and articulate..

 

every thought has an opposite thought,,

 

I'm sorry if I came across as alluding to the statements faultiness; to clarify I simply mean't that while the statement seems appropriate the quality behind the words does not seem sincere.

 

I merely mean't to point out that I believe you could benefit from a sincerely devoted practice, and a teacher that knows what they are talking about. The fact is that you really don't have to do anything, by being still and paying close attention, you will meet yourself. Plain and simple.

 

every thought has an opposite thought

 

Every thought is merely a thought.

 

yeh because meditating is doing, and trying to not do is doing, and trying not to not do is doing...and trying not to try is doing, and being aware of all these things is a sort of doing..

 

I would argue that being aware is not doing at all, in fact being aware occurs in all that doing your talking about.

Edited February 4, 2012 by don_vedo

[Jetsun]

yeh because meditating is doing, and trying to not do is doing, and trying not to not do is doing...and trying not to try is doing, and being aware of all these things is a sort of doing..

 

yup the Buddha became enlightened when he relaxed and let go of all that

[skydog]

I'm sorry if I came across as alluding to the statements faultiness; to clarify I simply mean't that while the statement seems appropriate the quality behind the words does not seem sincere.

 

I merely mean't to point out that I believe you could benefit from a sincerely devoted practice, and a teacher that knows what they are talking about. The fact is that you really don't have to do anything, by being still and paying close attention, you will meet yourself. Plain and simple.

 

 

 

Every thought is merely a thought.

 

 

 

I would argue that being aware is not doing at all, in fact being aware occurs in all that doing your talking about.

 

Yep every thought is merely a thought, slightly different way of putting it across that truth is not contained in a thought..or it is a mere fragment or whatever way you can articulate

 

and yep being aware is not doing, but it sort of depends on whether its "your idea of yourself" thats trying to be aware and your getting an idea of it or wether its just pure observance

 

and yes being still and paying close attention is where you meet reality, which is what "im doing" but I dont think "enlightenment" exists, its like something that can comes and goes, one second your aware then you drop out of it..

[Rishi Das]

I dont think "enlightenment" exists, its like something that can comes and goes, one second your aware then you drop out of it..

 

I think the problem is in the fact that "I" doesn't want enlightenment to exist; and so as long as "I" is in the drivers seat, enlightenment will always come and go.

 

The tools for that little project are pretty much laid out on this site, in a pretty damn good way I might add.

[chi 2012]

I've noticed that Qigong tends to have beliefs but Zen doesn't. For example in Qigong you have to believe in the Chi, the Master or Diety the Chi is coming from, blockages turning into smoke etc...then the mystical powers some people get. Zen is more no nosense - "Just the facts Ma'am". Personally I combine both.

[konchog uma]

I don't really understand the question either, but i think that methods are methods and philosophy is philosophy, and (fortunately!) you don't have to choose. You can govern the organization of your ideas and principles with philsophy, and cultivate your energies and spirit with methods.

 

So ideally, they relate to each other in a harmonious way and support and feed each other.

 

If you are working on daoism and wu wei for example, your meditations and practices might reflect that as you explore how the philosophy is put into practice.

 

And the other way around too, practice and successful methods can lead to philosophical insights, as you see how less effort and strain helps your qi move more efficiently, you might adopt a philosophy of wu wei.

 

comparing them directly is like apples and oranges tho, since they serve different purposes. They need to harmonize so that they both benefit.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

EFT, certain types of meditation methods..versus the philosophy of zen/taoism

 

With methods your trying to get somewhere, achieve something, be somebody, resist something...so "you" can achieve something, get somewhere be somebody etc...so your in this state of constant intefering with yourself so "you" can attain, achieve, resist

 

With Zen or Taoism..you dont know, what is you and what is not you, you are here, you dont know whether future or past exists or doesnt exists, you dont know whether it is good or bad to "achieve or attain something" you dont need to get anywhere because everything is one already...hmmm

 

Yes. Agreed.

 

Like when the "me" is there, you're not really doing what you're doing but imagining all these things. When the "me" disappears you're fully doing whatever you're doing, merged with it, like a drop in the ocean, more fully what you are, yet not realizing it. When the "me" comes back it wants to experience this and that but you can't "have your cake and eat it too" so really the "me" can only distance the experiencer from the experience, but cannot merge with the experience since as that happens -- it disappears and real life appears.....

[skydog]

In Zen they have two methods- one is just sitting, one is zen koans, and some schools dont teach the other..

 

So koans are pretty much the same as negating knowledge, ideas, concepts, or even affirming it- to the point of nothing (although this description and any description or concepts are innacurate)

 

So

 

Why are you meditating? (honestly)

 

To get more peace, to be happier, to become more powerful, to be in more control, to be more liked, to not make mistakes, to get more sex and better relationships, to live life better, to have mastery over death, to find a way to be better than others, to carry on the illusion of ego..

 

Why is peace a good thing?

Does peace exist?

Why is peace bad?

Is peace impermanent?

Why do you want to be happy?

Why is happiness bad?

Who is it that wants peace or happiness?

Why do you want power?

Does power exist?

Can power be bad?

Is power a form of weakness?

Why is control a good thing?

Who is powerful?

Who is in control?

Does control exist?

Why is control a good thing?

How can control be bad?

Why do you want to be liked?

Does being liked exist?

Why can being liked not be a good thing?

Is there such a thing as a good thing?

Is there such a thing as mistakes?

Why do you not want to make a mistake?

What is a mistake?

Why can mistakes be good?

Why do you want more sex?

Who is the you that wants more sex?

Why can sex be a bad thing?

Does sex exist?

What is wrong with sex?

What is right with sex?

Where is sex?

What is sex?

What is a relationship?

Why do you want a relationship?

What is wrong with a relationship?

Who is a relationship?

Does a relationship exist?

What is life?

What is better?

Who is living life?

Why can better be worse?

What is death?

Does death exist?

How do you know death exists?

Why can death be a good thing?

Who is it that doesnt want to die?

What is others?

What is a way?

What is better?

What is find?

What is Ego?

Does it exist?

What is bigger Ego?

 

 

etc

[Protector]

Yes?

[Harmonious Emptiness]

You know, if I tried to answer all this, I would only stand to confuse myself. Definitive answers to things like this are entirely limiting. Even my above answer is very limiting since true and false and right and wrong have very little if any continuous existence. Trying to look at reality or truth through our lens of definition only enslaves. Even this truth is too absolute to be useful to any of us, and so was that one.

[lifeforce]

I've noticed that Qigong tends to have beliefs but Zen doesn't. For example in Qigong you have to believe in the Chi, the Master or Diety the Chi is coming from, blockages turning into smoke etc...then the mystical powers some people get. Zen is more no nosense - "Just the facts Ma'am". Personally I combine both.

 

In my experience I've never had to believe in anything to practice qigong. Qi doesn't come from a diety, it is the lifeforce of the universe. One only has to learn how to feel it and experience it's wonders by practicing certain methods, opening up and looking inward. No belief is necessary.

[Simon the Gnostic]

I've noticed that Qigong tends to have beliefs but Zen doesn't. For example in Qigong you have to believe in the Chi, the Master or Diety the Chi is coming from, blockages turning into smoke etc...then the mystical powers some people get. Zen is more no nosense - "Just the facts Ma'am". Personally I combine both.

 

I tend to look at it from the perspective of whether or not the method works or not. On a very basic level, we know that the universe is composed of particles (and things beyond particles), so there is energy. We manipulate energy every day when turning on a computer. As humans, we're also walking biochemical batteries, so whether "Chi" actually exists or not, does employing the concept and using the technique produce a deeper awareness of oneself?

 

I don't really worry about the religious baggage I find in most of these things, but I suppose that comes from my background in a fairly astringent and clinical form of Theravada and also Gnosticism.