"Exotic" Supplement Experience

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I think response/benefit to adaptogens vary with individuals. I tried several expensive and high quality Cordyceps for a while, and noticed absolutely nothin'. But I am willing to try shilajit, or moomiyo. Why is moomiyo considered better? Any ideas on how to track down good quality of either of these? I found out Tattwa's herbs, which is a high quality company with a good reputation has a 40% off sale on shilajit for a few days, you need a promo code to get the discount (40shilajit). (I have no connection to this company, I have oredered from them before and am on the mailing list). Anybody know a good source of moomiyo?

[松永道]

I think response/benefit to adaptogens vary with individuals. I tried several expensive and high quality Cordyceps for a while, and noticed absolutely nothin'. But I am willing to try shilajit, or moomiyo. Why is moomiyo considered better? Any ideas on how to track down good quality of either of these? I found out Tattwa's herbs, which is a high quality company with a good reputation has a 40% off sale on shilajit for a few days, you need a promo code to get the discount (40shilajit). (I have no connection to this company, I have oredered from them before and am on the mailing list). Anybody know a good source of moomiyo?

 

Lowest quality, genuine cordyceps are $1000 a kilogram, that's $15-30 for one dose of an herb used for chronic and severe Lung Qi deficiency. Hence the nickname, Tibetan gold. The only time I've ever seen it used was for a chronic, severe cough and wheezing that nothing, no other herb could, could budge. The the results began after the first day and after two weeks the symptoms completely disappeared. Mind you, Cordyceps wasn't used alone, but it was the main ingredient.

 

As for Shilajit, fits the description of a Kidney Yang tonic in TCM terms - not a Jing tonic. Aside from Neigong, there are no Jing tonics. Increased libido, bone mending (Kidney governs the bones), general energy boost, bitter taste (bitter tonifies kidneys). Also the psychological symptoms would derive from too much yang burning out Kidney yin. Dosing it in a yin vehicle, fatty liquids, is definitely a good idea. Start getting any yin-deficiency symptoms, heat waves, hot soles and palms, thirst, night sweats, insomnia, restlessness, etc and back off.

 

Honestly, it's not a good idea to go wild with herb experimentation until you have a good handle on your personal body climate.. I speak from experience. Even with the right medicine, the saying goes, "Eat medicine, three parts poison". Meaning all medicines have a detrimental affect on your Zheng Qi, proper body function. Use them right, to solve a problem, and they're absolutely worth it. But if you're a generally healthy person, especially a young person, better to build your body through healthy diet, exercise, and meditation.

 

But isn't that boring!

[VCraigP]

I think response/benefit to adaptogens vary with individuals. I tried several expensive and high quality Cordyceps for a while, and noticed absolutely nothin'. But I am willing to try shilajit, or moomiyo. Why is moomiyo considered better? Any ideas on how to track down good quality of either of these? I found out Tattwa's herbs, which is a high quality company with a good reputation has a 40% off sale on shilajit for a few days, you need a promo code to get the discount (40shilajit). (I have no connection to this company, I have oredered from them before and am on the mailing list). Anybody know a good source of moomiyo?

 

Shilajit and Moomio are synonyms- Same item, different regions.

 

Craig

[mantis]

I got a lower back injury about a year ago from heavy deadlifts, would this help? Also, is this a good source?

 

http://www.russianfoods.com/showroom/product021A9/vendor004C6/default.asp

[Taomeow]

I got a lower back injury about a year ago from heavy deadlifts, would this help? Also, is this a good source?

 

http://www.russianfo...4C6/default.asp

 

Yes, it is a good source. I don't know if it will help, it's not a panacea, the only miracles I've seen with it were related to bone fractures. (Three doctors on three separate occasions telling three different people I know exactly the same thing: "I have never seen a broken bone in an adult heal so fast and so completely.") I haven't personally seen it perform spectacularly for anything else, although I've books that credit it with dozens of other types of healing. For old injuries, they recommend combining internal intake with external applications -- you make an ointment and massage it in. Use ghee as the base. If you decide to use it, be forewarned that it has a characteristic smell (which is how I can tell an excellent product from an inferior one, which is why I assert moomiyo and shilajit are only the same to the extent strawberries you buy at a supermarket are the same as wild strawberries you gather in the forest ). Some people find this smell somewhat unpleasant and others, outright unbearable.

[betwixter]

-

Edited September 12, 2010 by betwixter

[altiora]

As someone has observed, responses vary according to the constitution of the person using it. I can swear that it's done more good for me than any thing I've tried. The exception is triphala, which should be on everyone's list. That said, I will stop using shilajit for a month (so to take a break), and give it to my domestic guinea pig aka my partner, so that I can see just what effect it has.

 

I noticed when in Santa Monica some months back that Ron Teeguarden has a shilajit product in his store. Ron has some useful information about it on his website:

 

http://www.dragonherbs.com/prodinfo.asp?number=526

Edited August 1, 2010 by altiora

[宁]

Even with the right medicine, the saying goes, "Eat medicine, three parts poison". Meaning all medicines have a detrimental affect on your Zheng Qi, proper body function. Use them right, to solve a problem, and they're absolutely worth it. But if you're a generally healthy person, especially a young person, better to build your body through healthy diet, exercise, and meditation.

 

Hello Song Yongdao,

 

What about the external daoist alchemy, which involves the use of special plant and mineral mixtures?

I'm sure external daoist alchemy is as complex as it's internal counterpart, maybe even more complex, due to the fact that it adresses a wide variety of natural ingredients - and the Chinese found them everywhere, in the Sky, on Earth, or under Water.

Anybody knows any good resources on this? Thanks!

[松永道]

Hello Song Yongdao,

 

What about the external daoist alchemy, which involves the use of special plant and mineral mixtures?

I'm sure external daoist alchemy is as complex as it's internal counterpart, maybe even more complex, due to the fact that it adresses a wide variety of natural ingredients - and the Chinese found them everywhere, in the Sky, on Earth, or under Water.

Anybody knows any good resources on this? Thanks!

 

Chinese medicine is external alchemy. Traditionally herbs were divided into three categories, the upper, lower, and middle classes. Lower class herbs are poisonous and only fit for short-term therapy. Middle class herbs, though not exactly poisonous are strong acting and also unfit for long-term use. Upper class herbs have gentle action and suited for long term intake. For a complete list of these herbs, check out the Shennong Bencao Jing.

 

Now because these upper class herbs are gentle tonics, they don't count as "eat medicine, three parts poison," right? Well, yes and no. All herbs, all foods even, have positive and negative effects on the body. At higher cultivation stages, the body will naturally require less. Many Daoist monks avoid garlic, onions, ginger and other 'hot' foods. Some out of sheer tradition, other because it messes with their cultivation. These foods are warming and stimulating - good for most of us who are relatively deficient and stagnant (relative to full-time cultivators that is), but they are problematic for these super healthy monks. However, the monks who abstain out of tradition, not cultivation, are often less healthy than they could be from eating these foods.

 

There you have it, one man's medicine is another man's poison, even when it comes to upper class herbs and foods. Even if you're relatively balanced, many of these herbs will feel good on intake (I don't know about anyone else here, but I find garlic to be a major aphrodisiac, a distraction I'm better off without most of the time), but over consumption can bring you to an imbalanced state where the former stimulant becomes a crutch to get you through the day.

 

Am I advocating abstinence and asceticism? No! I'm advocating know thyself, cultivator.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Chinese medicine is external alchemy. Traditionally herbs were divided into three categories, the upper, lower, and middle classes. Lower class herbs are poisonous and only fit for short-term therapy. Middle class herbs, though not exactly poisonous are strong acting and also unfit for long-term use. Upper class herbs have gentle action and suited for long term intake. For a complete list of these herbs, check out the Shennong Bencao Jing.

 

Now because these upper class herbs are gentle tonics, they don't count as "eat medicine, three parts poison," right? Well, yes and no. All herbs, all foods even, have positive and negative effects on the body. At higher cultivation stages, the body will naturally require less. Many Daoist monks avoid garlic, onions, ginger and other 'hot' foods. Some out of sheer tradition, other because it messes with their cultivation. These foods are warming and stimulating - good for most of us who are relatively deficient and stagnant (relative to full-time cultivators that is), but they are problematic for these super healthy monks. However, the monks who abstain out of tradition, not cultivation, are often less healthy than they could be from eating these foods.

 

There you have it, one man's medicine is another man's poison, even when it comes to upper class herbs and foods. Even if you're relatively balanced, many of these herbs will feel good on intake (I don't know about anyone else here, but I find garlic to be a major aphrodisiac, a distraction I'm better off without most of the time), but over consumption can bring you to an imbalanced state where the former stimulant becomes a crutch to get you through the day.

 

Am I advocating abstinence and asceticism? No! I'm advocating know thyself, cultivator.

 

+1

[宁]

Chinese medicine is external alchemy. Traditionally herbs were divided into three categories, the upper, lower, and middle classes. Lower class herbs are poisonous and only fit for short-term therapy. Middle class herbs, though not exactly poisonous are strong acting and also unfit for long-term use. Upper class herbs have gentle action and suited for long term intake. For a complete list of these herbs, check out the Shennong Bencao Jing.

 

Now because these upper class herbs are gentle tonics, they don't count as "eat medicine, three parts poison," right? Well, yes and no. All herbs, all foods even, have positive and negative effects on the body. At higher cultivation stages, the body will naturally require less. Many Daoist monks avoid garlic, onions, ginger and other 'hot' foods. Some out of sheer tradition, other because it messes with their cultivation. These foods are warming and stimulating - good for most of us who are relatively deficient and stagnant (relative to full-time cultivators that is), but they are problematic for these super healthy monks. However, the monks who abstain out of tradition, not cultivation, are often less healthy than they could be from eating these foods.

 

There you have it, one man's medicine is another man's poison, even when it comes to upper class herbs and foods. Even if you're relatively balanced, many of these herbs will feel good on intake (I don't know about anyone else here, but I find garlic to be a major aphrodisiac, a distraction I'm better off without most of the time), but over consumption can bring you to an imbalanced state where the former stimulant becomes a crutch to get you through the day.

 

Am I advocating abstinence and asceticism? No! I'm advocating know thyself, cultivator.

 

 

My link

 

I remember a story about the poisoning of a Chinese emperor, which shows a bit of the complexity of the art of the external medicine/poison:

- The emperor was assassined by giving him a couple of separate ingredients, that were served with the meals. None of them, individually, was poisonous by itself. Neither in combination. The firing of the formula was deviced according to the moon phases. When the moon reached it's most yang peak, the ingredients fused inside the emperor's body, and he just collapsed!

 

Of course it's not the poisoning part that is fascinating to me, but the whole concept, which is very intelligent!

IF the story is true...

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

My link

 

I remember a story about the poisoning of a Chinese emperor, which shows a bit of the complexity of the art of the external medicine/poison:

- The emperor was assassined by giving him a couple of separate ingredients, that were served with the meals. None of them, individually, was poisonous by itself. Neither in combination. The firing of the formula was deviced according to the moon phases. When the moon reached it's most yang peak, the ingredients fused inside the emperor's body, and he just collapsed!

 

Of course it's not the poisoning part that is fascinating to me, but the whole concept, which is very intelligent!

IF the story is true...

 

 

Yes, it's true. The separate ingredients were the meat and grease from the body of a cow, a hefty dose of salt from the deepest mines, a spicy sauce made from tomatoes and vinegar, all on a sesame seed bun. In addition, strips of potato fried in more grease and layered with salt, along with more of the spicy sauce to dip them in, and a super-sized sugary beverage concocted from the cola nut and laden with bubbles of carbon dioxide. This was craftily called a "Happy Meal" , and it was fed to children on into adulthood, and when the moon phases were right, the ingredients would fuse together in the coronary arteries and they would just collapse. Of course, the emperor would laugh, because his handlers had learned not to feed him such poison during his childhood, but the legend has it that one of his ancestors had died from eating such meals.

[宁]

Yes, it's true. The separate ingredients were the meat and grease from the body of a cow, a hefty dose of salt from the deepest mines, a spicy sauce made from tomatoes and vinegar, all on a sesame seed bun. In addition, strips of potato fried in more grease and layered with salt, along with more of the spicy sauce to dip them in, and a super-sized sugary beverage concocted from the cola nut and laden with bubbles of carbon dioxide. This was craftily called a "Happy Meal" , and it was fed to children on into adulthood, and when the moon phases were right, the ingredients would fuse together in the coronary arteries and they would just collapse. Of course, the emperor would laugh, because his handlers had learned not to feed him such poison during his childhood, but the legend has it that one of his ancestors had died from eating such meals.

 

It's nothing more than a hunch, but I guess that the external medicine aiding neigong would work the same way, only, to benefit instead.

Thanks for the story, though. Where did you learned it from?

[松永道]

It's nothing more than a hunch, but I guess that the external medicine aiding neigong would work the same way, only, to benefit instead.

 

It definitely can, and that's the right way to think use it, as an aid not replacement for neigong.

 

I've met a few Daoist hermits, and heard stories of countless others, who would basically live off of herbal pills (also called Dan as in Dantian) for periods of time. One would brew up a batch every fall and meditate-hibernate right on through to spring. Another older nun simply lives off pills instead of food and plans to do so, as far as I can tell, indefinitely.

 

Of course, these folks have a profound knowledge of herbology and their own bodies, they know the energetic affects of their practices, and what kind of external support is necessary. Even still, you also find folks, serious cultivators, who mess things up. We had one monk come into the clinic, completely swollen, like he had an allergic reaction to a bee sting, only it was his entire body and after weeks it still wasn't going away. What was the problem? Too many "tonifying", upper class herbs. Self-medication gone wrong. (the doc did end up fixing him up, though it involved required plenty of downward purging, as in diarrhea, for weeks)

 

A more common herbal misuse is men and yang tonics, herbal viagra, and the like. These guys, through drinking, working late hours, not getting enough rest, lack of proper exercise, etc basically deplete themselves of Jing. The first symptoms are maybe restlessness, feeling hot, premature ejaculation, insomnia, thirst, dry mouth, yellow eyes, red face, other empty fire symptoms. At the same time, many concurrently express some yang deficiency symtoms - as yin and yang both derive from Jing - and these guys set to taking yang tonics for their decreased libido, impotence, soft erection, etc. However, because it's a yin/jing deficiency at the root, although they experience a temporary relief of symptoms, even a big kick above normal, they burn more Yin in the process and wind up even more screwed up. It's not hard to treat, but rebuilding yin takes a long time, and apart from serious neigong, they'll never repair some of the damage.

 

My teacher plans to hold retreats in the future that integrate Chinese medicine and internal cultivation, first to clear up chronic health conditions, then to bolster forward progress. Internal and external medicine combined with internal and external exercises. But that's some time off.

 

For a young person though, cooking is the best external alchemy, no need to mess with herbs. Cultivate, know your body, and pay attention to the affects of food. It's amazing how much you aid internal and external cultivation with the right diet. And not as in "the right diet for everyone!" That's a myth. The right diet for you, right now.

[宁]

My teacher plans to hold retreats in the future that integrate Chinese medicine and internal cultivation, first to clear up chronic health conditions, then to bolster forward progress. Internal and external medicine combined with internal and external exercises.

 

Thank you, the entire post is extremely interesting, and I agree with it.

I have some thoughts about it, maybe you can comment a bit and share some advice.

 

I work in a pharmacy, did so for some years, and slowly but surely I became interested in mixing internal work with external aid, with nutrition and external tonics.

 

Another way I've been practicing is right in the morning, when the sun is rising over the lake, and the lake, the earth and the sky begins to blend up the Qi into a very nurturing - as I came to discover - Qi. It's the closest replacement for food supplements I've met until now.

 

Yet another way, is the practice of scent, natural perfumes of the field, the trees, the waters. It's a part that I would love to investigate more, and I have very few resources about. I've heard of Xiang Gong, Fragrance Qigong, researched a bit on it, only to discover it's not what I'm searching for..

 

Another way I've seen some doing it, is taking the external medicine and working on it through meditation, breaking it down into elements that are used to strenghten the inner structures that are 'created' with meditation (strings, cavities).

Together with the work of alignment with the outer rythms (of the moon, sun, tide, solstice and equinox) and the inner rythms of the meridians and organs, these ways of practicing just blew my mind.

 

I will arrive in China next year in autumn or so - I study Chinese in college - and I'm already looking for a scholarship that would allow me to maybe allow me to study there TCM also, but this is particularly difficult to find, especially for a foreigner.

 

Therefore, I'm looking for other options and the opportunity that you talked about, be it in the near or far future, is very attractive to me, maybe you can keep us posted on it?

 

But back to the supplement topic, what is your opinion on bee products, especially royal jelly and propolis?

Edited August 3, 2010 by Little1

[宁]

Thank you, the entire post is extremely interesting, and I agree with it.

I have some thoughts about it, maybe you can comment a bit and share some advice.

 

I work in a pharmacy, did so for some years, and slowly but surely I became interested in mixing internal work with external aid, with nutrition and external tonics.

 

Another way I've been practicing is right in the morning, when the sun is rising over the lake, and the lake, the earth and the sky begins to blend up the Qi into a very nurturing - as I came to discover - Qi. It's the closest replacement for food supplements I've met until now.

 

Yet another way, is the practice of scent, natural perfumes of the field, the trees, the waters. It's a part that I would love to investigate more, and I have very few resources about. I've heard of Xiang Gong, Fragrance Qigong, researched a bit on it, only to discover it's not what I'm searching for..

 

Another way I've seen some doing it, is taking the external medicine and working on it through meditation, breaking it down into elements that are used to strenghten the inner structures that are 'created' with meditation (strings, cavities).

Together with the work of alignment with the outer rythms (of the moon, sun, tide, solstice and equinox) and the inner rythms of the meridians and organs, these ways of practicing just blew my mind.

 

I will arrive in China next year in autumn or so - I study Chinese in college - and I'm already looking for a scholarship that would allow me to maybe allow me to study there TCM also, but this is particularly difficult to find, especially for a foreigner.

 

Therefore, I'm looking for other options and the opportunity that you talked about, your teacher maybe doing that seminar, be it in the near or distant future, is very attractive to me, maybe you can keep us posted on it?

 

But back to the supplement topic, what is your opinion on bee products, especially royal jelly and propolis?

Edited August 7, 2010 by Little1

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Report on shilajit:

 

Ordered the tattvas herbs shilajit during their 40% discount, and decided to take a significant dose up front to see whether I felt something. I took 5 capsules three times a day instead of one capsule twice a day, felt energized on the first day, and felt really terrific on beginning the second day: energized, uplifted, good mood, confident attitude and still had lots on clean feeling energy in the evening after I got home from work. I have now started drinking it in warm milk with honey (I actually like the taste) and have reduced my dosage to two capsules three times daily. I do plan on taking a week off per month. I'll report back later to tell you if the good effects persist.

 

The local honey producers have set up roadside stands, and I have been buying delicious honey with honeycomb from them. I also just bought 2 ounces of royal jelly as well for $30. I am not taking that on a regular basis, but I am going to save it for occasional use.

[Walker]

I will arrive in China next year in autumn or so - I study Chinese in college - and I'm already looking for a scholarship that would allow me to maybe allow me to study there TCM also, but this is particularly difficult to find, especially for a foreigner.

 

Actually, these are easy to find and not hugely difficult to obtain. The Chinese government offers a full-ride (plus free housing and living stipend) scholarship to study TCM at the undergraduate level. This means you study the five year introductory program which you will need to complete if you wish to be licensed in the US. You can get this scholarship if you are under 25. It covers several major TCM schools, including Beijing, Shanghai, and a few others. If you get this scholarship they will also support you to study another year of Chinese before entering school, which you will certainly need unless your Chinese is at a very high level already.

 

Both Beijing and Shanghai offer city scholarships which will put you through the five year program if you are under thirty. They cover tuition but not other expenses.

 

Information on the former scholarship is best obtained at www.chinese-forums.com. On the latter, through TCM universities' websites or direct commmunication with their international education offices, all of which have English-speaking staff.

[宁]

Information on the former scholarship is best obtained at www.chinese-forums.com. On the latter, through TCM universities' websites or direct commmunication with their international education offices, all of which have English-speaking staff.

I'm over 30, and not an US citizen, but thanks anyway

[Walker]

Well, if you already have a BA in any field then you can go straight into a TCM masters or PhD degree here if your Chinese is good enough. The age requirements push back into the 40s for PhDs, I believe, and people of all or most nationalities can apply.

 

Then again, if wherever you plan to practice doesn't require a university diploma, then you may well get a better education by steering far clear of the formal institutions! As for myself, this is one piece of bitter I have no choice but to eat.

[niveQ]

Can someone recommend the best shilajit/moomiyo supplement there is currently? I live n the USA, but can get something shipped.

[niveQ]

I've heard good things about dragon herbs. But I've also heard that it's best to buy it in the us uncapsulized raw form, I just don't know which vendor to buy from. I never know what reviews I can trust on Amazon.

[liminal_luke]

I've heard good things about dragon herbs.

 

I´ve also heard good things about Dragon Herbs. Am thinking about getting their schizandra, another jing tonic. If only it wasn´t so darn expensive. Natures Way sells the same herb, very well reviewed on Amazon, for a fraction of the price. Does anyone have an informed opinion? Is the Dragon Herb schizandra likely to be worth the steeper cost?

 

Thanks,

 

Liminal

[niveQ]

I tried to visit the four winds medicinals link that was provided, but that is no longer up and running. I really want a good raw powder/clay source of shilajit. I got the dragon herbs capsules, but they are pricey and don't last long.