Exploring the Now

[Vmarco]

Edited February 7, 2012 by Vmarco

[Lucky7Strikes]

Very nice! Thank you.

[Aaron]

Yes, well written. Now throw it all out the window and you can really begin.

 

Aaron

[JustARandomPanda]

The Fourth Turning or Direct Path of Vajra, is about sustaining the "flash" of Nowness. The "flash" (quite literally a flash out of alaya into the Present) is unavailable to the unsurrendered mind. Chogyam Trungpa said, "the idea is to flash as much as you can so that you will finally be able to sustain it,...it is the lever where you can actually transcend the karmic force."

 

This is fascinating and leads me to a question.

 

It's my understanding that as one begins to practice mind-training exercises one has assorted Realizations along the way.

 

Are these Realizations false or Pseudo-Realizations since Alaya has not yet been transcended?

 

See...I have often wondered how did the Buddha know he had "finally made it" so to speak. Especially since so many others thought they did (and probably would argue till they're blue in the face they did) but actually were not. Shurangama Sutra is just chock full of such cases.

 

I still do not understand how Buddhists square the circle of No-Self/Emptiness teachings with the Mahaparinirvana Sutra. Especially when they like to shout that so-and-so is being a Nihilist or an Eternalist or "reifying" this or that Realization or Sutra and thus doesn't have Right View (and I guess therefore doomed to failure like all those Shurangama Sutra examples?).

 

After reading some Shurangama (I own 8 volumes of it) - especially the section on the 50 Skanda-Demon States - I was amazed at just how many make errors. They think they've made it to Buddhahood. Except they didn't. That still baffles me to this day. How did the Buddha know he had "flashed" beyond Alaya once and for all? Does that invalidate all the other Realizations made on the way prior to that final one?

[JustARandomPanda]

Yes, well written. Now throw it all out the window and you can really begin.

 

Twinner...what all did you discard?

 

And what precisely did you "begin" only once you'd discarded...well whatever it is you discarded?

 

Did that include discarding the belief in the need to discard?

 

 

p.s. not trying to be an ass. I have struggled (still am actually) with how in the world one "discards" beliefs. Including, I presume, the belief in the need to discard beliefs.

Edited February 7, 2012 by SereneBlue

[Vmarco]

This is fascinating and leads me to a question.

 

It's my understanding that as one begins to practice mind-training exercises one has assorted Realizations along the way.

 

Are these Realizations false or Pseudo-Realizations since Alaya has not yet been transcended?

 

 

All realizations within the alayas are false. LOL The alayas are in the past.

 

Wei Wu Wei said, "Phenomenally, we can know no present, as it must be in the 'past' before our senses can complete the process of recording it, leaving only a suppositional past and future; noumenally, there is no question of 'past' or 'future,' but only a presence that knows neither 'time' nor 'space.' "

 

You gnow you have flash out of alaya when you flash out of alaya. You're Present in the presence of your Presence. We all have an inherent Buddha nature, which is within the Present,...the Absolute Present.

 

V

[Vmarco]

[JustARandomPanda]

Does this mean even the 7th of Thusness's stages is still within the Alaya (and thus even the 7th stage is false Realization)?

[chi 2012]

Twinner...what all did you discard?

 

And what precisely did you "begin" only once you'd discarded...well whatever it is you discarded?

 

Did that include discarding the belief in the need to discard?

 

 

p.s. not trying to be an ass. I have struggled (still am actually) with how in the world one "discards" beliefs. Including, I presume, the belief in the need to discard beliefs.

Just knowing the difference between facts and beliefs has always been a huge eye opener for me. No need to discard beliefs if they work for you.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=qySx8tSs8BQ

 

[xabir2005]

Does this mean even the 7th of Thusness's stages is still within the Alaya (and thus even the 7th stage is false Realization)?

Vmarco is only describing the first stage despite him not wishing to see it this way.

[Marblehead]

We all have an inherent Buddha nature, ...

 

Are you sure about that? Hehehe. I've looked and looked and not found one yet.

[Vmarco]

[Vmarco]

Are you sure about that? Hehehe. I've looked and looked and not found one yet.

 

It is in the Present. And there is no Present in Time.

 

To paraphrase,...do not seek Buddha Nature, but seek and find all the barriers you have built against it.

[Aaron]

Twinner...what all did you discard?

 

And what precisely did you "begin" only once you'd discarded...well whatever it is you discarded?

 

Did that include discarding the belief in the need to discard?

 

 

p.s. not trying to be an ass. I have struggled (still am actually) with how in the world one "discards" beliefs. Including, I presume, the belief in the need to discard beliefs.

 

 

 

Discard beliefs. Don't enter into practice with a preconceived notion of what you're trying to achieve. Do you want to achieve true enlightenment or Buddhist enlightenment. If you practice Buddhism you'll be achieving Buddhist enlightenment, exactly what they've told you you will experience. Nothing wrong with that, but I do believe that, although Buddhists have scraped the surface of enlightenment, in the end it is just an illusion that they've created, to justify giving up the former "illusion". So once you realize this you need to throw it out the window and begin from where you began. Once you do that, then you can truly start to experience who you are.

 

Also, although it seems hypocritical, and by definition is, there's nothing wrong with believing in discarding beliefs, because essentially it's just saying, I wont ascribe to any one thing, I'll examine who I am from the raw original nature from whence I came. It starts by examining you, I, or whatever you want to call it, without any preconceived notions of what you are. In other words don't go into meditation or contemplation believing it's an illusion because people told you that's what it was, in the same way, don't believe it's a deep inner attachment to the world around you, just examine it as you would a brand new object you've never seen before. Examine it and determine what it is, then once you've determined that, then you can come back and follow any belief system you want to.

 

 

Aaron

 

edit- I never addressed what you begin... well to be honest you have to decide that for yourself, but what I meant was the practice, you begin the practice of awareness without preconceived notions or beliefs.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Twinner

[xabir2005]

To sereneblue: so again as you can see, vmarco refuses to see what the "I AM" of the first thusness stage is talking about. It has nothing to do with the "I" of "I think" but is so clearly described as a non-thought, non-conceptual, formless, non-illusory Self or Pure Presence that vmarco is talking about. He just refuses to see it.

 

And by following the "mountain doctrine" or shentong which is just advaita or hinduism doctrine under the guise of buddhism, he has prevented himself from truly understanding the teachings of the Buddha.

 

I AM (what vmarco calls Pure Presence) is an important realization but by no means the final goal or nirvana or liberation of buddhism (though it is very appealing and does appear like liberation), so keep that in mind in your path

 

I am not the only one criticizing vmarco for his failure to see that his realization is no different from the atman-brahman of hinduism or the I AM - others like seth ananda and simple jack and vajrahridaya have said the same.

 

P.s. I have gone through Thusness Seven Stages after knowing Thusness for just a couple of years, nothing like "lifetimes" is required. As I have stated in my ebook, I follow and advise on direct path method.

 

Now, I originally have no intentions to comment on his thread since vmarco's advise is probably helpful and valuable to many readers and I do not wish to sidetrack - but since you brought up the Thusness seven stages, I felt I should comment to prevent misunderstandings. Now let's get back to vmarco's topic.

Edited February 7, 2012 by xabir2005

[goldisheavy]

To the Buddha, the world is maya, a mirage, an illusion, and through the six senses, the only reality we know. To the Buddha, nothing is harder communicating with than a mind that believes it arises from the 6 senses.

 

ACIM says, "The ego [sciential consciousness that emerges from the sense organ of thinking] uses the body [sense organs of sight, hearing, touch, feeling, and taste] to conspire against your mind [sapiential conscious], and because the ego realizes that its “enemy” [the sapiential mind or heart of essence] can end them both [ego and body] merely by recognizing that they are not part of you [the heart of essence]; they join in the attack together. This is perhaps the strangest perception of all, if you consider what it really involves. The ego, which is not real, attempts to persuade the mind, which is real, that the mind is ego’s learning device, and further, that the body is more real than the mind is. No one in their right mind could possibly believe this, and no one in their right mind does believe it." A Course In Miracles 6 IV 5.

 

The ego is mind's own commitment. It is intentional and it's not going anywhere. By relaxing commitments you can transform the ego, but since intentionality can never be abandoned (nor can it be taken up), ego is never abandoned. Ego is a really dumb word. A better word is subjectivity or personality. You'll always have some personality. Be it earthly or not. Be it mundane or not. And you'll always have subjectivity too. You'll never learn the objective truth. If you're lucky, you'll eventually at least understand the meaning of your own subjectivity and the meaning of commitments you maintain.

 

Talking about the mind and the ego as two different things is like talking about the finger and the tip of the finger as two different things. A finger isn't itself without some tip. A finger tip has no meaning without some finger. There is no place where the finger stops and a finger tip begins. It's the same with the mind and ego. And even as I say this, I can already hear idiots thinking, "Ah, but our secret teaching goes beyond mind, nyak nyak nyak." Some people are just hopeless. They don't even know what mind is, but already they think (using their mind) they go beyond it.

 

I wish instead of beating down on egos people actually investigated them. Of course we ideally want people to be accommodating within reason. If I speak I want you to pay attention. If you speak, you likely want me to pay attention. That's what I mean by being accommodating. But this desire to live among reasonably accommodating people has lead to a nasty spiritual disease of ignorant, dogmatic ego bashing.

Edited February 7, 2012 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

Does this mean even the 7th of Thusness's stages is still within the Alaya (and thus even the 7th stage is false Realization)?

 

For something to be false, something else must be true. What our minds have trouble with is something that's neither true nor false. What is that? It's something indeterminate. That's reality. Reality is indeterminate. Out of this indeterminate reality, brimming with all potential, we intentionally select some point of view. Within that point of view, some things will be more true than others. If you want to be pragmatic, you have to honor, to some limited extent, the weight of these relative truths. Take another point of view, and what used to be true can become false and vice versa. Nothing is inherently true or false though. If you want to look at reality as is, it doesn't even exist as such. There is no reality 'as is'. Even the indeterminate state of reality is not its true nature. It's one of its states. The state where a point of view is assumed is another possible state. It's not more or less true than the indeterminate state of relaxed intentionality.

 

Seeing things this way requires being comfortable with nuance. If we insist on neatly and conveniently separating the true from the false without any personal appreciation for the dynamics of perception and knowledge, we just end up with a dogmatic caricature of reality at best. And at the worst we end up with something completely unskillful.

 

Arguing whether something is or isn't within alaya is pointless unless that argument strikes at an important painful conceptual hairball for you. It's much better to talk about these painful hairballs, if you even have any, then to talk about what is or isn't. And if you don't have any painful hairballs, it's best not to invent them. Just because someone called "Buddha" said all beings have hairballs doesn't mean it's true. If you don't have it, don't make it up. If you have it, talk directly about it. In other words, go straight to the root concern without any regard for what is or isn't. What do you want there to be and why? That's a more revealing question than talking about what is and what isn't, which is a pretentious way of talking (it pretends that some things or states of affairs are beyond intentionality, which is not honest).

[goldisheavy]

Even so, few on any continent seem willing to let go of who they think they are to realize who they actually are.

 

Except you aren't actually anything specific. If you discard one mask, another appears in its place. All masks are you and none of them are you. All is true. None is true. There is no contradiction. Why is it like this? It's because of the infinite potentiality of mind.

 

If you discard persona that you think is false, instead of truth, you find another false persona there. It might be formless and infinite, but it's still false. You can keep discarding forever and ever and all the resultant states of mind, being conditioned, are in some way false, but equally, in some way true as well. Thus your current ego is in a sense the real you as well.

 

But all this talk is absurd anyway. In reality almost no one will discard their ego. Why not? To do so you have to discard not just your body, but also the world as you know it, your mother and father, your sisters and brothers and so on. Many people are ready to discard or even to destroy their bodies and personalities. But few can discard their families. And even fewer would discard the entire world as they know it. And for what? Only to realize some other world, a different world, spontaneously takes the place of the previous one.

 

Instead of phrasing the path in terms of discarding, it's better to talk about understanding. Know thyself. Don't discard unless discarding is called for by your own wisdom and not by some stranger.

[Vmarco]

To sereneblue: so again as you can see, vmarco refuses to see what the "I AM" of the first thusness stage is talking about. It has nothing to do with the "I" of "I think" but is so clearly described as a non-thought, non-conceptual, formless, non-illusory Self or Pure Presence that vmarco is talking about. He just refuses to see it.

 

I AM (what vmarco calls Pure Presence) is an important realization but by no means the final goal or nirvana or liberation of buddhism (though it is very appealing and does appear like liberation), so keep that in mind in your path

 

I am not the only one criticizing vmarco for his failure to see that his realization is no different from the atman-brahman of hinduism or the I AM - others like seth ananda and simple jack and vajrahridaya have said the same.

 

P.s. I have gone through Thusness Seven Stages after knowing Thusness for just a couple of years, nothing like "lifetimes" is required. As I have stated in my ebook, I follow and advise on direct path method.

 

Now, I originally have no intentions to comment on his thread since vmarco's advise is probably helpful and valuable to many readers and I do not wish to sidetrack - but since you brought up the Thusness seven stages, I felt I should comment to prevent misunderstandings. Now let's get back to vmarco's topic.

 

OK, to summarize,...as xabir has not experienced Presence, nor is interested in understanding from a Present point of view, he does not comprehend my posts,...and whereas VMarco has not taken the course in the Seven Stages of Thusness, V does not comprehend xabir's.

 

VMarco would NEVER suggest that any "I Am" is connected with pure presence. Any "I Am" is part of alaya, and the Present is beyond alaya.

 

Again,...there is no One without a Many, no self without other, no here without a there, no "I" or "I Am" beyond alaya,...the Present is proof of that.

 

The only absolute liberation is the full recognition of alaya for what it is. Let's be clear on that,...an "I Am" (herewithin defined as an I-ness of all "others", or Oneness of the Many) which must be within alaya to be an "I Am," can understand full liberation, but not necessarily. Any "I Am" can only recognize full liberation when Present,...as already discussed in the thread on The Nature of Non-Existence

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/22178-about-the-nature-of-non-existence/page__st__70

 

A huge problem discussed by the Buddha, was those who realized what is called I Am, like Arhats or the Brahman level of phenomenal existence, are not only unliberated, but in place that believes they are,...as expressed in several ways in the Nature of Non-Existence thread.

 

Over and over the Buddha described Arhats as still holding on to the notion of an ego, a personality, a being and a life. I recall Buddha saying once that as began to discuss the nature of reality the Arhats who were there collapsed from the shock,...and thus unable to hear what was being pointed to.

 

VMarco is quite certain that all those who are attached to the course on Seven Stages of Thusness will disagree. It is also certain that V's message is quite clear,...uncover the Present, by hook or crook, and all will be directly answered for you.

 

However, keep in mind, the Present cannot be accessed through the Six Senses, and thus intellectual jargon. The intellectual jargon can lead to a myriad of special, bliss-like dimensions, where you could be a god,...but that is not the Present.

 

Xabir, seth ananda, simple jack and vajrahridaya may all disagree. Perhaps they are all even Arhats. So what. You must uncover the Present for yourself. As Voltaire said, "It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong." If you wish to be a Trustee within the Box, then do what you are doing,...but if you want out of the prison of the Box,...uncover the Present.

 

Truth is not ineffable, but only denied to protect the false.

 

"If you go on doing what you're doing now, you are very likely to go on getting the same results, as you are getting now.

 

If you want something different, you must do something different, and keep varying your behaviour until you get the result that you want."

 

V

[Vmarco]

 

If you discard persona that you think is false, instead of truth, you find another false persona there. It might be formless and infinite, but it's still false. You can keep discarding forever and ever and all the resultant states of mind, being conditioned, are in some way false, but equally, in some way true as well. Thus your current ego is in a sense the real you as well.

 

 

Keep dissolving persona's until their are no more personsa's to dissolve.

 

Again I'll mention Eckhart Tolle,..."we need to draw our attention to what is false in us, for unless we learn to recognize the false as the false, there can be no lasting transformation, and you will always be drawn back into illusion, for that is how the false perpetuates itself"

 

"The truth beyond mind cannot be grasped by any faculty of mind" Tilopa

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

We will understand eventually. It's a fun and wild ride though! Understandable why so many dont want to get out, even after they realize that it's just a ride!

[Vmarco]

 

If you discard persona that you think is false, instead of truth, you find another false persona there. It might be formless and infinite, but it's still false. You can keep discarding forever and ever and all the resultant states of mind, being conditioned, are in some way false, but equally, in some way true as well. Thus your current ego is in a sense the real you as well.

 

 

The truth is not compatible with the false, so even if it slapped you on the face, the false would not allow its recognition.

 

Look at Xabir above,...he is so vested in a concept about I Am and a course of Seven Stages of Thusness, there is no space as it were, to be Present.

 

Certainly, ego is part of you in all levels of alaya,...the question is, who's doing the driving,...the ego, or Buddha Nature. Ego is just an aspect of the vehicle, that believes it is the consciousness of the vehicle.

 

V

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Look at Xabir above,...he is so vested in a concept about I Am and a course of Seven Stages of Thusness, there is no space as it were, to be Present.

 

 

an example of why, even if not how, we should take the good advice and then discard it.

 

 

In some ways it can be called zen, i forget the buddhist word for the practice, but i dont think there's an american equivelant

[Marblehead]

It is in the Present. And there is no Present in Time.

 

To paraphrase,...do not seek Buddha Nature, but seek and find all the barriers you have built against it.

 

Thanks. Good effort. We all know I will never find Buddha Nature. Oh well.

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Thanks. Good effort. We all know I will never find Buddha Nature. Oh well.

 

 

you're just lazy