Exploring the Now

[Jetsun]

It's called emptiness, non has affect or effect on what you feel. What is felt becomes a choice, instead of autonomous.

 

I can feel sadness if I want to, would that make you feel better?

 

You feeling sad would reassure me that you hadn't become Borg, but I don't see what choice you can have over many emotions, when you witness suffering it is normal for sadness to arise from your emotional centre as natural reaction even if you have discovered emptiness.

 

I once went to a Church service with some high level Tibetan Buddhist monks including one of the tutors of the Dalai Lama and the focus of the service was suffering in the world and the depth of pain and suffering I saw etched on the monks faces is something I doubt I will ever forget. Their Buddhist practice made them feel everything more deeply and intensely rather than feeling less, which includes negative emotion like suffering, but then I saw them an hour later and they were full of happiness and joy. I think it is a mistake to think that if you remove the self from the equation that there will be no negative emotion, rather you don't attach to them or push them away so they leave more easily and don't dominate your mind.

[Aaron]

The above are words of a fragmented sentient being,...nevertheless, just because you do not see stars in your daytime, doesn't mean they're not there.

 

In other words, your return to Source is the most important thing in your life, except that you are so distracted, diverted, and dis-integrated that you do not recognize it. The return to Source is presence in the Presence of the Present. Just because very few realize this during their perceived lifetime, does not mean it is not the most important thing.

 

The relative fact that you are a member of TTB suggests that some aspect of your aggregated self is dissatisfied with your fragmentation. But as T. S. Eliot said, "Human kind cannot bear very much reality."

 

To summarize,...your fragmented reality, conjured from sentient beingness, which, depending on the diversions, can not achieve more than being always almost satisfied, may at some point wonder if there is anything more. Some realize that this more cannot be found in the past or anticipation of a future; an inquiry that may lead them to the greatest adventure of all, the Present.

 

Look at a star,...we should know that not only is the light we are viewing in the past, but that because of the curvature of spectral light, it isn't even where we are looking. Relatively speaking, that is no different than the light of the monitor in front of you,...it is in the past. You cannot observe an object in the Present,...what you are viewing is merely a perceived now.

 

The 6 Senses CANNOT detect the Present,...the 6 Senses only observe motion,...motion is within time,....there is no Present in time.

 

It doesn't matter what you believe, or believe that perceived others believe,...the 6 Senses are not viewing the World that surrounds them, but only the World that surrounded them. The 6 Senses can only observe the past,...albeit a fraction of so-called time in the past,...it is not the Present.

 

V

 

Hello V,

 

To be blunt, I wonder if perhaps you're a bit hypocritical. You attach so much importance to others giving up their own beliefs, yet you cling to yours so vehemently and deny when anyone calls you on it. The fact of the matter is that now is not important, unless you decide it is important. Now just is, that's it. You can try to logically define it, but the fact of the matter is that much of what you say is nothing more than a logical conclusion, the actual experiences you talk about can't be defined or explained in a corporeal sense, they are incorporeal experiences devoid of senses or thought and definition. When you grasp that, then come talk to me and we can go from there.

 

Of course you can quote T.S. Elliot (which you've done twice that I've noticed so far, same exact quote), Ekhart Tole (I believe three times, but it may have been twice, same exact quote), and I could go on, but the fact of the matter is that you are clinging to your beliefs in Short Path Buddhism as much as the Christians are clinging to the cross, neither will bring you salvation however. Of course it's fine if you want to continue to live in that delusion if it makes you feel better, but if you really want to start understanding the nature of things, then what you need to do is understand the nature of who you are, and that starts with understanding the nature of the fear within you.

 

By the way, the mountain is now, then it is not now, then it is now.

 

Aaron

Edited February 8, 2012 by Twinner

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

I love these Buddhist circle jerks... now if only Vaj would come back, it would be just like the good old days.

 

Aaron

 

 

Ey dont knock 'em, their approach to "our same thing" may be different, but their destination is barely any different.

 

Only semantics separate us, truly. we are of the same mind and goal. our routes might differ greatly, but they have many crossing points and merges.

[Vmarco]

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

what'chall wearing right now?

 

 

 

 

Oh hey look, a distraction *follows distraction out of this thread*

[Protector]

 

 

Oh hey look, a distraction *follows distraction out of this thread*

 

huh? how did you see me?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

huh? how did you see me?

 

 

2 User(s) are reading this topic

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1. Hot Nirvana Judo Trend 2. Sinfest

 

 

Edited February 8, 2012 by Hot Nirvana Judo Trend

[Informer]

You feeling sad would reassure me that you hadn't become Borg, but I don't see what choice you can have over many emotions, when you witness suffering it is normal for sadness to arise from your emotional centre as natural reaction even if you have discovered emptiness.

 

I once went to a Church service with some high level Tibetan Buddhist monks including one of the tutors of the Dalai Lama and the focus of the service was suffering in the world and the depth of pain and suffering I saw etched on the monks faces is something I doubt I will ever forget. Their Buddhist practice made them feel everything more deeply and intensely rather than feeling less, which includes negative emotion like suffering, but then I saw them an hour later and they were full of happiness and joy. I think it is a mistake to think that if you remove the self from the equation that there will be no negative emotion, rather you don't attach to them or push them away so they leave more easily and don't dominate your mind.

 

You likely saw compassion, and he may have been choosing it, how do you know?

 

See, there isn't really removing self from the equation. The self is pretending to be awareness, yet it is not awareness. Self can't realize metta because it would own it, and there is no owning in the realization. Everything is free, awareness just goes there with intention.

 

Pushing them away is a good step and shows that you are beginning to see the phenomenal choices that you have, but it won't free awareness to be able to go anywhere. When you look through your eyes, that is where awareness is, awaiting the light. Eyes only see so you need to move it to another place, which it will mold to wherever it is moved to.

Edited February 8, 2012 by Informer

[Z3N]

[JustARandomPanda]

I am not so quick to dismiss some of the things VMarco is saying as being stuck in the I AM stage of realization. Now granted. I am a beginner. Not really one of the people he's looking for to help. But I do find his posts interesting.

 

So I wondered what the following scenarios might look like.

 

What if SereneBlue followed VMarco & Twinner's advice?

 

 

 

The Search for Truth (A Play in Two Acts)

 

ACT I

 

SB: I've realized Anatta and Shunyata!

Twinner: Great! Now throw those realizations away and you can finally begin.

SB: There's nothing to throw away and no one doing any throwing!

Twinner: Great! Now throw *those* realizations away and see what happens

SB: *stares blankly at Twinner*

 

 

ACT II

 

VMarco to SB: Throw away Anatta and Shunyata. Go on. I dare you! See if you even CAN.

VMarco: BTW - the Buddha himself said you should be able to verify if it can be done. If it can be done then it isn't what the Thus-Come-One taught.

SB: But the Thus-Come-One teaches that Emptiness is Form and Form is Emptiness and I have realized it! There is no throwing out to be done and no one doing any throwing! The Buddha spoke Truth.

SB: *points out several Pali and Sanskrit Sutras confirming her realization as being in accord with the Buddhadharma as spoken by the Buddha himself*

VMarco: Now you are being a Parrot parroting back everything you've been taught about Tathagata. You can not even throw away your precious Anatta and Shunyata. The Dharma that was meant to set you free has now become your Prison. You're just like all the other 99%. *heavy sigh*

Twinner: I agree with VMarco. SB, you've been indoctrinated so deeply you can't even see it. This is why I am against all Religious institutions.

SB: *Blinks like a deer caught in headlights at VMarco and Twinner*

[Vmarco]

what'chall wearing right now?

 

 

Oh hey look, a distraction *follows distraction out of this thread*

 

"when you can disrobe without being ashamed and take up your garments (beliefs) and place them under your feet like little child and tread on them, then you will no longer be afraid". 1st Century Gnostic text

[Informer]

I am not so quick to dismiss some of the things VMarco is saying as being stuck in the I AM stage of realization. Now granted. I am a beginner. Not really one of the people he's looking for to help. But I do find his posts interesting.

 

So I wondered what the following scenarios might look like.

 

What if SereneBlue followed VMarco & Twinner's advice?

 

 

 

The Search for Truth (A Play in Two Acts)

 

ACT I

 

SB: I've realized Anatta and Shunyata!

Twinner: Great! Now throw those realizations away and you can finally begin.

SB: There's nothing to throw away and no one doing any throwing!

Twinner: Great! Now throw *those* realizations away and see what happens

SB: *stares blankly at Twinner*

 

 

ACT II

 

VMarco to SB: Throw away Anatta and Shunyata. Go on. I dare you! See if you even CAN.

VMarco: BTW - the Buddha himself said you should be able to verify if it can be done. If it can be done then it isn't what the Thus-Come-One taught.

SB: But the Thus-Come-One teaches that Emptiness is Form and Form is Emptiness and I have realized it! There is no throwing out to be done and no one doing any throwing! The Buddha spoke Truth.

SB: *points out several Pali and Sanskrit Sutras confirming her realization as being in accord with the Buddhadharma as spoken by the Buddha himself*

VMarco: Now you are being a Parrot parroting back everything you've been taught about Tathagata. You can not even throw away your precious Anatta and Shunyata. The Dharma that was meant to set you free has now become your Prison. You're just like all the other 99%. *heavy sigh*

Twinner: I agree with VMarco. SB, you've been indoctrinated so deeply you can't even see it. This is why I am against all Religious institutions.

SB: *Blinks like a deer caught in headlights at VMarco and Twinner*

 

Serene, I have found that actual truth never becomes unknown, it is only elaborated upon.

[xabir2005]

I am not so quick to dismiss some of the things VMarco is saying as being stuck in the I AM stage of realization. Now granted. I am a beginner. Not really one of the people he's looking for to help. But I do find his posts interesting.

 

So I wondered what the following scenarios might look like.

 

What if SereneBlue followed VMarco & Twinner's advice?

 

 

 

The Search for Truth (A Play in Two Acts)

 

ACT I

 

SB: I've realized Anatta and Shunyata!

Twinner: Great! Now throw those realizations away and you can finally begin.

SB: There's nothing to throw away and no one doing any throwing!

Twinner: Great! Now throw *those* realizations away and see what happens

SB: *stares blankly at Twinner*

 

 

ACT II

 

VMarco to SB: Throw away Anatta and Shunyata. Go on. I dare you! See if you even CAN.

VMarco: BTW - the Buddha himself said you should be able to verify if it can be done. If it can be done then it isn't what the Thus-Come-One taught.

SB: But the Thus-Come-One teaches that Emptiness is Form and Form is Emptiness and I have realized it! There is no throwing out to be done and no one doing any throwing! The Buddha spoke Truth.

SB: *points out several Pali and Sanskrit Sutras confirming her realization as being in accord with the Buddhadharma as spoken by the Buddha himself*

VMarco: Now you are being a Parrot parroting back everything you've been taught about Tathagata. You can not even throw away your precious Anatta and Shunyata. The Dharma that was meant to set you free has now become your Prison. You're just like all the other 99%. *heavy sigh*

Twinner: I agree with VMarco. SB, you've been indoctrinated so deeply you can't even see it. This is why I am against all Religious institutions.

SB: *Blinks like a deer caught in headlights at VMarco and Twinner*

The realization of anatta and emptiness is not the asserting of a new reality, but merely the throwing away of the erroneous views through clear insight. There is in fact no trace or clinging to the realization if one truly realizes, because this is a realization of a non-asserting rejection of a delusion - and not the attainment of something special or ultimate - and therefore not an object that can be clung to.

 

On the other hand, if you only realize the I AM, or what VM calls non-illusory Self or the Present/Presence, that alone is insufficient in overcoming all the latent views of duality and inherency. And as long as false view is not overthrown through the realization of right view, there will always remain traces of clinging.

 

So in short you got the order wrong. You should move on from the I AM realization instead of "moving on" from anatta and emptiness, which is the viewless view that removes all views and traces of clinging.

Edited February 9, 2012 by xabir2005

[Vmarco]

[JustARandomPanda]

The realization of anatta and emptiness is not the asserting of a new reality, but merely the throwing away of the erroneous views through clear insight. There is in fact no trace or clinging to the realization if one truly realizes, because this is a realization of a non-asserting rejection of a delusion - and not the attainment of something special or ultimate - and therefore an object that can be clung to.

 

 

 

 

1. What practice can one engage in to see if in actual fact Anatta and Shunyata Realization can never be let go of if one wishes to actually Scientifically Test the above assertion for one's self?

 

2. Assuming Anatta and Shunyata Realization can never be released...does that mean one has therefore successfully become a Diamond-Sutra Bodhisattva?

 

3. Are there actual Diamond-Sutra Bodhisattva's at Taobums?!

[Informer]

1. What practice can one engage in to see if in actual fact Anatta and Shunyata Realization can never be let go of if one wishes to actually Scientifically Test the above assertion for one's self?

 

2. Assuming Anatta and Shunyata Realization can never be released...does that mean one has therefore successfully become a Diamond-Sutra Bodhisattva?

 

3. Are there actual Diamond-Sutra Bodhisattva's at Taobums?!

 

Serene, what is it called when something that was thought to be known proves to be false?

 

You realize that it was not true in the first place, right? Therefore it must have been a belief. Self is that belief.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Informer

[JustARandomPanda]

Serene, what is it called when something that was thought to be known proves to be false?

 

 

Edit: Are there actual Diamond-Sutra Bodhisattva's at TB?!!

Edited February 9, 2012 by SereneBlue

[Informer]

 

Edit: Are there actual Diamond-Sutra Bodhisattva's at TB?!!

 

How could one possibly know? If I said yes, do you know it? If I said No, do you believe that?

 

It is irrelevant (imo).

[Informer]

Our ability to determine about anothers realization is dependent upon our realizations.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Informer

[xabir2005]

1. What practice can one engage in to see if in actual fact Anatta and Shunyata Realization can never be let go of if one wishes to actually Scientifically Test the above assertion for one's self?

 

2. Assuming Anatta and Shunyata Realization can never be released...does that mean one has therefore successfully become a Diamond-Sutra Bodhisattva?

 

3. Are there actual Diamond-Sutra Bodhisattva's at Taobums?!

1. And 2.: actually what I meant was that the realization does not leave traces, there is no "object of realization" being clung to. As an example: I realize there is no self, in seeing just the seen no seer, but I do not assert "non-existence" (which is an extreme) as a truth since non-existence is asserted based on a predicate of existence. Therefore, the "no self" here is simply a non-asserting rejection of the view of the existent self, while not asserting new claims such as "non-existence", and in effect there is in seeing only the shapes, colours and forms vividly experienced, no self but also "no no self". Therefore I cannot possibly cling to a "no self", there is just the traceless realization authenticating itself moment by moment in all diverse manifestation - seeing forms, hearing sounds, chop wood, carry water, everything expresses Buddha-nature, primordial purity, enlightenment. This is what Dogen calls practice-enlightenment: you don't practice For enlightenment, your very practice itself expresses enlightenment: in sitting just sitting (zazen) which is the universe sitting - air con humming, cool breeze blowing, in walking just walking, there is nothing the great way does not pervade.

 

No longer do I sit meditation in search for something, as every moment is simply the expression of perfect buddha-nature. There isn't even a "being conscious of" or a need to remind of "no self" - no self, no no self, only the direct, intimate, self-luminous and non-dual sensate world expressing moment by moment as an interdependent and empty process, complete in a single manifestation.

 

And if every moment and manifestation is simply so, what need is there to cling to special state, a previous moment of vision, or a thought like "no self", or anything at all? As what Joan Tollifson once asked Toni Packer if she'd ever had one of those big awakenings where life turns inside out and all identification with the body-mind ceases.

 

Toni replied, "I can't say I had it," she replied. "It's this moment, right now."

 

Dogen also says: "To study the buddha way is to study the self. To study the self is to forget the self. To forget the self is to be actualized by myriad things. When actualized by myriad things, your body and mind as well as the bodies and minds of others drop away. No trace of realization remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly."

 

However to answer your question about whether realization is permanent: the answer is yes, just like waking up from a deluded dream you can no longer believe in the monster, or when you realize there never was a real santa claus that you can no longer believe in santa claus, likewise when you realize no self that realization cannot be unseen and the false view is from that point on relinquished.

 

As Dogen says: "No trace of realization remains, and this no-trace continues endlessly."

 

To your last question: there is no "diamond sutra bodhisattva" as distinct from other kinds of bodhisattvas. The definition of a bodhisattva on the bhumis are generally accepted throughout Mahayana Buddhism.

 

As the glossary states, a 1st bhumi bodhisattva is one who has directly realized the twofold emptiness.

Edited February 9, 2012 by xabir2005

[JustARandomPanda]

To your last question: there is no "diamond sutra bodhisattva" as distinct from other kinds of bodhisattvas. The definition of a bodhisattva on the bhumis are generally accepted throughout Mahayana Buddhism.

 

I always say Diamond-Sutra Bodhisattva because

 

A. I haven't read most of the Mahayana canon.

B. Diamond Sutra is a short sutra and the Buddha was very clear in outlining such a being in order to be called a Bodhisattva.

C. I have seen on a lot of forums people calling this-or-that person a Bodhisattva when this-or-that person talked about has not met even one of the requirements the Buddha outlined in the Diamond Sutra as to what a Bodhisattva is. Ordinary everyday compassion, loving-Kindness and equanimity is not enough to qualify for the title Bodhisattva according to the Buddha.

 

 

Going back to something else:

 

Yes,...contented. What Gurdjeiff called Man #2,...he who realizes he's in a prison, and aims to be one of the prison trustees. (Man #1 doesn't realize he's in a box, while Man #3 attempts to escape the box. Buddha would be Man #7, which has 3 aspects that only Man #4 and greater can fathom.

 

I have always found Gurdjieff fascinating. He was very much about how the vast majority of humanity is a Machine and furthermore is utterly contented to remain a Machine.

 

I did a websearch on Man #2 (and #1 & #3 - alas, I think I'm a #3 - no better off than Man #1 or Man #2 although I do aspire to be Man #4 at least someday).

 

I found the following on the subject:

 

"Man number two means man on the same level of development, but man in whom the center of gravity of his psychic life lies in the emotional center, that is, man with whom the emotional functions outweigh all others; the man of feeling, the emotional man.

 

"The knowledge of man number two is merely the knowledge of what he likes; what he does not like he does not know. Always and in everything he wants something pleasant. Or, if he is a sick man, he will, on the contrary, know only what he dislikes, what repels him and what evokes in him fear, horror, and loathing.

 

"The knowledge of man number four is a very different kind of knowledge. It is knowledge which comes from man number five, who in turn receives it from man number six, who has received it from man number seven. But, of course, man number four assimilates of this knowledge only what is possible according to his powers. But, in comparison with man number one, man number two, and man number three, man number four has begun to get free from the subjective elements in his knowledge and to move along the path towards objective knowledge.

 

"The knowledge of man number seven is his own knowledge, which cannot be taken away from him; it is the objective and completely practiced knowledge of All. "It is exactly the same with being. There is the being of man number one, that is, the being of a man living by his instincts and his sensations; the being of man number two, that is to say, the being of the sentimental, the emotional man; the being of man number three, that is, the being of the rational, the theoretical man, and so on. It is quite clear why knowledge cannot be far away from being. Man number one, two, or three cannot, by reason of his being, possess the knowledge of man number four, man number five, and higher. Whatever you may give him, he may interpret it in his own way, he will reduce every idea to the level on which he is himself.

 

"In exactly the same way there exists the religion of man number one, that is to say, a religion consisting of rites, of external forms, of sacrifices and ceremonies of imposing splendor and brilliance, or, on the contrary, of a gloomy, cruel, and savage character, and so on. There is the religion of man number two; the religion of faith, love, adoration, impulse, enthusiasm, which soon becomes transformed into the religion of persecution, oppression, and extermination of 'heretics' and 'heathens.' There is the religion of man number three; the intellectual, theoretical religion of proofs and arguments, based upon logical deductions, considerations, and interpretations. Religions number one, number two, and number three are really the only ones we know; all known and existing religions and denominations in the world belong to one of these three categories. What the religion of man number four or the religion of man number five and so on is, we do not know, and we cannot know so long as we remain what we are.

 

"It must be understood that the religion of man number one is of one kind; the religion of man number two is of another kind; and the religion of man number three is of a third kind. The religion of man number four, number five, and further is something of a kind totally different from the religion of man number one, number two, and number three.

 

 

"The application of the 'table of hydrogens' for the determination of the different properties of things and of living creatures which consist of many 'hydrogens' is based on the principle that in each living creature and in each thing there is one definite 'hydrogen' which is the center of gravity; it is, so to speak, the 'average hydrogen' of all the 'hydrogens' constituting the given creature or thing. To find this 'average hydrogen' we will, to begin with, speak about living creatures. First of all it is neces­sary to know the level of being of the creature in question. The level of being is primarily determined by the number of stories in the given machine. So far we have spoken only about man. And we have taken man as a three-story structure.

 

We cannot speak about animals and man at one and the same time because animals differ in a radical way from man. The highest animals we know consist of two stories and the lowest of only one story." "A man consists of three stories. "A sheep consists of two stories. "A worm consists of only one story. "At the same time the lower and middle stories of a man are, so to speak, equivalent to the sheep, and the lower story — to the worm. So that it can be said that a man consists of a man, a sheep, and a worm, and that a sheep consists of a sheep and a worm.

 

Man is a complex creature; the level of his being is determined by the level of being of the creatures of which he is composed. The sheep and the worm may play a bigger or a smaller part in man. Thus the worm plays the chief part in man number one; in man number two — the sheep; and in man number three — man. But these definitions are important only in individual cases. In a general sense 'man' is determined by the center of gravity of the middle story.

[JustARandomPanda]

And because I am such a fan of Gurdjieff I can't resist tossing this into the thread either.

 

 

G. began one of the following talks with the fact that we forget about the difficulties of our position. "You often think in a very naive way," he said. "You already think you can do. To get rid of this conviction is more difficult than anything else for a man. You do not understand all the complexity of your organization and you do not realize that every effort, in addition to the results desired, even if it gives these, gives thousands of unexpected and often undesirable results, and the chief thing that you forget is that you are not beginning from the beginning with a nice clean, new machine. There stand behind you many years of a wrong and stupid life, of indulgence in every kind of weakness, of shutting your eyes to your own errors, of striving to avoid all unpleasant truths, of constant lying to yourselves, of self-justification, of blaming others, and so on, and so on. All this cannot help affecting the machine. The machine is dirty, in places it is rusty, and in some places artificial appliances have been formed, the necessity for which has been created by its own wrong way of working. "These artificial appliances will now interfere very much with all your good intentions. "They are called 'buffers.'

 

" 'Buffer' is a term which requires special explanation. We know what buffers on railway carriages are. They are the contrivances which lessen the shock when carriages or trucks strike one another. If there were no buffers the shock of one carriage against another would be very unpleasant and dangerous. Buffers soften the results of these shocks and render them unnoticeable and imperceptible.

 

"Exactly the same appliances are to be found within man. They are created, not by nature but by man himself, although involuntarily. The cause of their appearance is the existence in man of many contradictions; contradictions of opinions, feelings, sympathies, words, and actions. If a man throughout the whole of his life were to feel all the contradictions that are within him he could not live and act as calmly as he lives and acts now. He would have constant friction, constant unrest. We fail to see how contradictory and hostile the different I's of our personality are to one another. If a man were to feel all these contradictions he would feel what he really is. He would feel that he is mad. It is not pleasant to anyone to feel that he is mad. Moreover, a thought such as this deprives a man of self-confidence, weakens his energy, deprives him of 'self-respect.' Somehow or other he must master this thought or banish it. He must either destroy contradictions or cease to see and to feel them. A man cannot destroy contradictions. But if 'buffers' are created in him he can cease to feel them and he will not feel the impact from the clash of contradictory views, contradictory emotions, contradictory words.

 

"'Buffers' are created slowly and gradually. Very many 'buffers' are created artificially through 'education.' Others are created under the hypnotic influence of all surrounding life. A man is surrounded by people who live, speak, think, and feel by means of 'buffers.' Imitating them in their opinions, actions, and words, a man involuntarily creates similar 'buffers' in himself. 'Buffers' make a man's life more easy. It is very hard to live without 'buffers.' But they keep man from the possibility of inner development because 'buffers' are made to lessen shocks and it is only shocks that can lead a man out of the state in which he lives, that is, waken him. 'Buffers' lull a man to sleep, give him the agreeable and peaceful sensation that all will be well, that no contradictions exist and that he can sleep in peace. 'Buffers' are appliances by means of -which a man can always be in the right. 'Buffers' help a man not to feel his conscience.

 

"But fortunately for man, that is, for his peace and for his sleep, this state of conscience is very rare. From early childhood 'buffers' begin to grow and strengthen in him, taking from him the possibility of seeing his inner contradictions and therefore, for him, there is no danger whatever of a sudden awakening. Awakening is possible only for those who seek it and want it, for those who are ready to struggle with themselves and work on themselves for a very long time and very persistently in order to attain it. For this it is necessary to destroy 'buffers,' that is, to go out to meet all those inner sufferings which are connected with the sensations of contradictions. Moreover the destruction of 'buffers' in itself requires very long work and a man must agree to this work realizing that the result of his work will be every possible discomfort and suffering from the awakening of his conscience.

 

"Conscience is a general and a permanent phenomenon. Conscience is the same for all men and conscience is possible only in the absence of 'buffers.' From the point of view of understanding the different categories of man we may say that there exists the conscience of a man in whom there are no contradictions. This conscience is not suffering; on the contrary it is joy of a totally new character which we are unable to understand. But even a momentary awakening of conscience in a man who has thousands of different I's is bound to involve suffering. And if these moments of conscience become longer and if a man does not fear them but on the contrary co­operates with them and tries to keep and prolong them, an element of very subtle joy, a foretaste of the future 'clear consciousness' will gradually enter into these moments.

 

"There is nothing general in the concept of 'morality.' Morality consists of buffers. There is no general morality. What is moral in China is immoral in Europe and what is moral in Europe is immoral in China. What is moral in Petersburg is immoral in the Caucasus. And what is moral in the Caucasus is immoral in Petersburg. What is moral in one class of society is immoral in another and vice versa. Morality is always and everywhere an artificial phenomenon. It consists of various 'taboos,' that is, restrictions, and various demands, sometimes sensible in their basis and sometimes having lost all meaning or never even having had any meaning, and having been created on a false basis, on a soil of superstition and false fears.

 

"Morality consists of 'buffers.' And since 'buffers' are of various kinds, and as the conditions of life in different countries and in different ages or among different classes of society vary considerably, so the morality created by them is also very dissimilar and contradictory. A morality common to all does not exist. It is even impossible to say that there exists any general idea of morality, for instance, in Europe. It is said sometimes that the general morality for Europe is 'Christian morality.' But first of all the idea of 'Christian morality' itself admits of very many different interpretations and many different crimes have been justified by 'Christian morality.' And in the second place modern Europe has very little in common with 'Christian morality,' no matter how we understand this morality.

 

"Morality and conscience are quite different things. One conscience can never contradict another conscience. One morality can always very easily contradict and completely deny another. A man with 'buffers' may be very moral. And 'buffers' can be very different, that is, two very moral men may consider each other very immoral. As a rule it is almost inevitably so. The more 'moral' a man is, the more 'immoral' does he think other moral people.

 

"In the life of an ordinary man truth and falsehood have no moral value of any kind because a man can never keep to one single truth. His truth changes. If for a certain time it does not change, it is simply because it is kept by 'buffers.' And a man can never tell the truth. Sometimes 'it tells' the truth, sometimes 'it tells' a lie. Consequently his truth and his falsehood have no value; neither of them depends upon him, both of them depend upon accident. And this is equally true when applied to a man's words, to his thoughts, his feelings, and to his conceptions of truth and falsehood.

 

"These lies are created by 'buffers' In order to destroy the lies in oneself as well as lies told unconsciously to others, 'buffers' must be destroyed. But then a man cannot live without 'buffers.' 'Buffers' automatically control a man's actions, words, thoughts, and feelings. If 'buffers' were to be destroyed all control would disappear. A man cannot exist without control even though it is only automatic control. Only a man who possesses will, that is, conscious control, can live without 'buffers.' Consequently, if a man begins to destroy 'buffers' within himself he must at the same time develop a will. And as will cannot be created to order in a short space of time a man may be left with 'buffers' demolished and with a will that is not as yet sufficiently strengthened. The only chance he has during this period is to be controlled by another will which has already been strengthened.

 

"This is why in school work, which includes the destruction of 'buffers,' a man must be ready to obey another man's will so long as his own will is not yet fully developed. Usually this subordination to another man's will is studied before anything else. I use the word 'studied' because a man must understand why such obedience is necessary and he must learn to obey. The latter is not at all easy. A man beginning the work of self-study with the object of attaining control over himself is accustomed to believe in his own decisions. Even the fact that he has seen the necessity for changing himself shows him that his decisions are correct and strengthens his belief in them. But when he begins to work on himself a man must give up his own decisions, 'sacrifice his own decisions,' because otherwise the will of the man who directs his work will not be able to control his actions.

 

'If we take an average cultured man, we shall see that in the vast majority of cases his personality is the active element in him while his essence is the passive element. The inner growth of a man cannot begin so long as this order of things remains unchanged. Personality must become passive and essence must become active. This can happen only if 'buffers' are removed or weakened, because 'buffers' are the chief weapon by the help of which personality holds essence in subjection.

 

"As has been said earlier, in the case of less cultured people essence is often more highly developed than it is in cultured man. It would seem that they ought to be nearer the possibility of growth, but in reality it is not so because their personality proves to be insufficiently developed. For inner growth, for work on oneself, a certain development of personality as well as a certain strength of essence are necessary. Personality consists of 'rolls,' and of 'buffers' resulting from a certain work of the centers. An insufficiently developed personality means a lack of 'rolls,' that is, a lack of knowledge, a lack of information, a lack of the material upon which work on oneself must be based. Without some store of knowledge, without a certain amount of material 'not his own,' a man cannot begin to work on himself, he cannot begin to study himself, he cannot begin to struggle with his mechanical habits, simply because there will be no reason or motive for undertaking such work.

 

"No, it does not mean this at all," G. answered him. "Fate is better than accident only in the sense that it is possible to take it into account, it is possible to know it beforehand; it is possible to prepare for what is ahead. In regard to accident one can know nothing. But fate can be also unpleasant or difficult. In this event, however, there are means for isolating oneself from one's fate. The first step towards this consists in getting away from general laws. Just as there is individual accident, so is there general or collective accident. And in the same way as there is individual fate, there is a general or collective fate. Collective accident and collective fate are governed by general laws.

 

If a man wishes to create individuality of his own he must first free himself from general laws. General laws are by no means all obligatory for man; he can free himself from many of them if he frees himself from 'buffers' and from imagination. All this is connected with liberation from personality. Personality feeds on imagination and falsehood. If the falsehood in which man lives is decreased and imagination is decreased, personality very soon weakens and a man begins to be controlled either by fate or by a line of work which is in its turn controlled by another man's will; this will lead him until a will of his own has been formed, capable of withstanding both accident and, when necessary, fate."

 

"It is impossible to say. I repeat that while a man does not know it is better for him not to attempt anything. Until he has new and exact knowledge it will be quite enough if his life is guided by the usual rules and principles. If a man begins to theorize and invent in this sphere, it will lead to nothing except psychopathy. But it must again be remembered that only a person who is completely normal as regards sex has any chance in the work. Any kind of 'originality,' strange tastes, strange desires, or, on the other hand, fears, constantly working 'buffers,' must be destroyed from the very beginning. Modem education and modem life create an enormous number of sexual psychopaths. They have no chance at all in the' work.

 

"This is the 'abuse of sex.' It is necessary, further, to remember that the sex center works with 'hydrogen' 12. This means that it is stronger and quicker than all other centers. Sex, in fact, governs all other centers. The only thing in ordinary circumstances, that is, when man has neither consciousness nor will, that holds the sex center in submission is 'buffers.' 'Buffers' can entirely bring it to nought, that is, they can stop its normal manifestation. But they cannot destroy its energy. The energy remains and passes over to other centers, finding expression for itself through them; in other words, the other centers rob the sex center of the energy which it does not use itself. The energy of the sex center in the work of the thinking, emotional, and moving centers can be recognized by a particular 'taste,' by a particular fervor, by a vehemence which the nature of the affair concerned does not call for.

 

The thinking center writes books, but in making use of the energy of the sex center it does not simply occupy itself with philosophy, science, or politics — it is always fighting something, disputing, criticizing, creating new subjective theories.

 

The emotional center preaches Christianity, abstinence, asceticism, or the fear and horror of sin, hell, the torment of sinners, eternal fire, all this with the energy of the sex center. ... Or on the other hand it works up revolutions, robs, bums, kills, again with the same energy.

 

The moving center occupies itself with sport, creates various records, climbs moun­tains, jumps, fences, wrestles, fights, and so on. In all these instances, that is, in the work of the thinking center as well as in the work of the emotional and the moving centers, when they work with the energy of the sex center, there is always one general characteristic and this is a certain particular vehemence and, together with it, the uselessness of the work in question. Neither the thinking nor the emotional nor the moving centers can ever create anything useful with the energy of the sex center. This is an example of the 'abuse of sex

 

 

And here is a website of Osho giving talks about Gurdjieff

[Z3N]

No,...you have obviously yet to experience the Present,...perhaps you're spending too much time diverted with delighting in "the cosmic sea."

 

And again no,...The Buddha is not a causeless fulcrum upon which duality effects its motion, brought about by the delusion it is separate from the Buddha and seeking to return to the Buddha, which it can never do, because the separation never occurred.

 

The Buddha is UPON the causeless fulcrum, and is aware of it,...thus, like Undivided Light, the Tathagata neither whences nor whithers,...however, as the Buddha, although dharmakaya, is also Sambhogakaya, which is Divided Light or Rainbow Body that consciously pivots from the Present.

 

My experience is unimportant. Those who seek to follow messengers will remain ignorant. I've said over and over, experience born of belief can only be experienced through the condition of that belief. Listen to the message. Tear it apart. Make an honest inquiry. Uncover your own direct experience.

 

Direct experience must be beyond the 6 senses, or else it is a conditioned experience. Of course, very few are interested in realizing a direct experience. Thus this advice is not for Z3N, but those wishing to understand why there is a cosmic sea.

 

V

 

Hahahaha still this little fish swims in he's bowl.

 

Look everyone! around, around this little fish goes......Swimming around in the religious Buddhist dogma.

 

Sorry your holiness! Your experience is far to important. You don't need to attain real knowledge cause your feasting off the dry and crusty turds of knowing.

 

So what does buddhas turds taste like?? Are they like golden fluffy clouds?? You must like them every much??

[Informer]

Hahahaha still this little fish swims in he's bowl.

 

Look everyone! around, around this little fish goes......Swimming around in the religious Buddhist dogma.

 

Sorry your holiness! Your experience is far to important. You don't need to attain real knowledge cause your feasting off the dry and crusty turds of knowing.

 

So what does buddhas turds taste like?? Are they like golden fluffy clouds?? You must like them every much??

 

That is not really constructive criticism, you realize mockery says more about you than the person you are pointing at?

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

That is not really constructive criticism, you realize mockery says more about you than the person you are pointing at?

 

 

*I walk in with a sign showing an arrow pointing up beside the text "THIS." and leave it here for everyone to see*