Exploring the Now

[Informer]

*I walk in with a sign showing an arrow pointing up beside the text "THIS." and leave it here for everyone to see*

 

Scotty brought it up and made it evident in the "Insult Policy Reminder" thread.

[Vmarco]

[doc benway]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mod Message

 

This thread was brought to our attention as it seems to be heating up.

Please remember our rules against personal attacks and insult.

There is a lot of interesting commentary in the thread.

Let's keep it respectful, please.

Thank you.

 

Mod Out

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Clarity]

Direct experience must be beyond the 6 senses, or else it is a conditioned experience. Of course, very few are interested in realizing a direct experience.

 

Agreed. As in, "Don't think, it's deadly, realize!"

[JustARandomPanda]

Guys...

 

You are not hearing what VMarco is saying because he's rubbing you all the wrong way. Honestly I think he is doing it deliberately like Zen Masters of Old to see who can get past their knee-jerk response to be in "accord with the Buddhadharma". [Whether his message is Truth obviously I can not say as I'm still a beginner.]

 

So maybe I'll display my level of understanding (and of course correspondingly my level of ignorance as well).

 

Let's get back to the Shurangama Sutra. I reference it because it is one of the very few Sutras I've read (and still reading as I haven't been through all 9 volumes of Master Hsuan Hua's EXTENSIVE commentary on it - which is why it's 9 volumes, instead of merely 1).

 

I'll admit I can count on one hand all the Buddhist sutras I've read. Shurangama is one of them. And I love it to death.

 

I actually looked up Shurangama Mantra determined to try to learn it to begin chanting it (until I *gulp* discovered it's a full 554 lines long for ONE bead on a mala ). But I did learn the intro as translated into English

 

Here's what some of the lines of the Shurangama Mantra say in English:

 

 

I now request the Bhagavan to certify my quest:

 

To enter the first evil world - the five turbidities;

 

If yet a single being's not accomplished Buddhahood

 

Accordingly I also must renounce Nirvana's bliss.

 

O great in courage, great in power, great compassionate one

 

 

I pray would now uncover and dispel my subtlest doubts.

 

Thus cause me quickly to attain Supreme Enlightment

 

And sit within the Bodhimandas of the Tenfold Realms.

 

And even could the nature of Shunyata melt away

 

My Vajra-like supreme resolve would still remain unmoved.

 

 

Buddha Nature NEVER moves. Not ever. Even the Buddha himself mentioned it. It is THE THING that distinguishes Buddha Nature from Maya.

 

See...I think it is totally and completely possible for Maya to duplicate exactly Anatta and Shunyata Realization. Perfectly. Exactly. Completely.

 

What is the message of the Shurangama Sutra - especially the section on the 50 Skanda Demon-States? Well I got from it that even people with freakin ridiculously high stage attainment - orders of magnitude beyond what we see at Taobums - still mistakenly think they've reached Buddha Nature...except they didn't.

 

These are Beings who LOOOOONG ago realized Dependent Origination and Emptiness of all things! And still they F'd up!! That's what freaked me out so much about Shurangama's message.

 

They thought they had Realized Buddha Nature. Except they didn't. At least beings in the Evil Realms realize they're trapped! Many Beings in the Upper Realms do not realize they're just as trapped as the ones in the lower ones. Hence why Tathagata vows to save all beings equally without distinguishing between "good" and "bad". If it's illusion. It's illusion period no matter what. Tathagata's compassionate light extends to All. The beings at the Top need saving every bit as much as the beings at the bottom.

 

So that is what I keep asking everyone who posts about it. And what my 2 Act Play was getting at.

 

How do you Fn Certify your Anatta and Shunyata is in fact not the Maya-induced CLONE?*

 

Until you have tried to turn it back on itself as the Buddha advised...can you really Certify your Anatta and Shunyata are the "real Shunyata and Anatta" the Buddha was talking about so to speak?

 

See...this is why I think Great Beings get trapped in the God Realms for Eons upon Eons (Eons = Big Bangs). Time out of mind they stay stuck in the God Realms because they think they've discovered Buddha Nature. Nothing moves in those God Realms and if it's one thing Buddha Nature never does it's move. So since Nothing moves in the God Realms they naturally see they've discovered Buddha Nature.

 

Until...as Vajrahidaya often said..."the merits burn up". And what happens next? Back down they go. The root cause of suffering was never removed. They got trapped in the upper layers for Eons - exactly as Shurangama says - because it too never moved. Except the five turbidities were still there...waiting...

 

Master Nan Huai-Chin says the key at every stage is to keep letting go. That's it. ALL the training methods any of the world's spiritual traditions EVER does is to help you just do that. It's all expedient means to get you to Just Let Go.

 

 

So I ask again to the Bodhisattvas of Taobums. What have you done to certify you are not making the exact same mistakes as those Great Beings of Shurangama Sutra?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Shurangama Sutra has a cool section where Buddha worked with (if I recall correctly) Ananda in showing that someday even Shunyata Realization will melt away (just like it says in the Shurangama Mantra!) - in other words it too is still trapped within Maya!! Even Emptiness must someday be Emptied!

 

Or at least that's how I understood the lesson.

Edited February 9, 2012 by SereneBlue

[Vanir Thunder Dojo Tan]

Agreed. As in, "Don't think, it's deadly, realize!"

 

 

Bruce lee and yoda.. or qai gon or however it's spelled. or was it obi wan? i dunno.

 

 

"Dont think, feel" and "feel, dont think"

 

 

I dont care who said what first, let's say it was a random faceless unknown individual in middle china area, around oh, 5000 BC

[xabir2005]

Guys...

 

You are not hearing what VMarco is saying because he's rubbing you all the wrong way. Honestly I think he is doing it deliberately like Zen Masters of Old to see who can get past their knee-jerk response to be in "accord with the Buddhadharma". [Whether his message is Truth obviously I can not say as I'm still a beginner.]

 

So maybe I'll display my level of understanding (and of course correspondingly my level of ignorance as well).

 

Let's get back to the Shurangama Sutra. I reference it because it is one of the very few Sutras I've read (and still reading as I haven't been through all 9 volumes of Master Hsuan Hua's EXTENSIVE commentary on it - which is why it's 9 volumes, instead of merely 1).

 

I'll admit I can count on one hand all the Buddhist sutras I've read. Shurangama is one of them. And I love it to death.

 

I actually looked up Shurangama Mantra determined to try to learn it to begin chanting it (until I *gulp* discovered it's a full 554 lines long for ONE bead on a mala ). But I did learn the intro as translated into English

 

Here's what some of the lines of the Shurangama Mantra say in English:

 

 

 

 

 

Buddha Nature NEVER moves. Not ever. Even the Buddha himself mentioned it. It is THE THING that distinguishes Buddha Nature from Maya.

 

See...I think it is totally and completely possible for Maya to duplicate exactly Anatta and Shunyata Realization. Perfectly. Exactly. Completely.

 

What is the message of the Shurangama Sutra - especially the section on the 50 Skanda Demon-States? Well I got from it that even people with freakin ridiculously high stage attainment - orders of magnitude beyond what we see at Taobums - still mistakenly think they've reached Buddha Nature...except they didn't.

 

These are Beings who LOOOOONG ago realized Dependent Origination and Emptiness of all things! And still they F'd up!! That's what freaked me out so much about Shurangama's message.

 

They thought they had Realized Buddha Nature. Except they didn't. At least beings in the Evil Realms realize they're trapped! Many Beings in the Upper Realms do not realize they're just as trapped as the ones in the lower ones. Hence why Tathagata vows to save all beings equally without distinguishing between "good" and "bad". If it's illusion. It's illusion period no matter what. Tathagata's compassionate light extends to All. The beings at the Top need saving every bit as much as the beings at the bottom.

 

So that is what I keep asking everyone who posts about it. And what my 2 Act Play was getting at.

 

How do you Fn Certify your Anatta and Shunyata is in fact not the Maya-induced CLONE?*

 

Until you have tried to turn it back on itself as the Buddha advised...can you really Certify your Anatta and Shunyata are the "real Shunyata and Anatta" the Buddha was talking about so to speak?

 

See...this is why I think Great Beings get trapped in the God Realms for Eons upon Eons (Eons = Big Bangs). Time out of mind they stay stuck in the God Realms because they think they've discovered Buddha Nature. Nothing moves in those God Realms and if it's one thing Buddha Nature never does it's move. So since Nothing moves in the God Realms they naturally see they've discovered Buddha Nature.

 

Until...as Vajrahidaya often said..."the merits burn up". And what happens next? Back down they go. The root cause of suffering was never removed. They got trapped in the upper layers for Eons - exactly as Shurangama says - because it too never moved. Except the five turbidities were still there...waiting...

 

Master Nan Huai-Chin says the key at every stage is to keep letting go. That's it. ALL the training methods any of the world's spiritual traditions EVER does is to help you just do that. It's all expedient means to get you to Just Let Go.

 

 

So I ask again to the Bodhisattvas of Taobums. What have you done to certify you are not making the exact same mistakes as those Great Beings of Shurangama Sutra?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Shurangama Sutra has a cool section where Buddha worked with (if I recall correctly) Ananda in showing that someday even Shunyata Realization will melt away (just like it says in the Shurangama Mantra!) - in other words it too is still trapped within Maya!! Even Emptiness must someday be Emptied!

 

Or at least that's how I understood the lesson.

No... You are wrong with regards to the 50 skandha demons. They only affect those who *have not* realized the twofold emptiness, not those that have. None of them have realized the twofold emptiness which is why they can still be affected by attachment to states, experiencess, or identify them with I, me, mine. If all states, all skandhas, everything whatsoever is empty, not I, not me, not mine, how can it cause clinging and deviation? One who realizes the twofold emptiness has by definition ascended to the Bodhisattva ground (bhumis).

 

You should read my comments on Shurangama's warning on the higher level mistakes: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/09/two-sutras-teachings-of-buddha-on.html

 

Incidentally in the past, in the I AM stages, I misinterpreted certain passages (also about the unmoving buddha-nature) whose translations tend to sound like I AM-ish accounts... As some confirmation of my experience. But as I progress later I found out that I was far from understanding the true essence of the sutra earlier on. You can search "shurangama" in my ebook: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2010/12/my-e-booke-journal.html

[xabir2005]

Forgot to add to my previous post: (Hinduism and Monistic traditions is at fault in 41, 42, 43, 44

Some Taoists at fault in 46, 47)

 

 

While Master Nan is right in pointing out the importance of the path, and I should add in fact the whole point of the path (or of Buddhism) lies in letting go, I will also like to add this by Thusness:

 

"...When one is unable to see the truth of our nature, all letting go is nothing more than another from of holding in disguise. Therefore without the 'insight', there is no releasing.... it is a gradual process of deeper seeing. when it is seen, the letting go is natural. You cannot force urself into giving up the self... purification to me is always these insights... non-dual and emptiness nature...."

 

And to those of the "dharma is simple, just let go" thought, he had this to say:

 

"Hi Dawnfirstlight,

 

I see it otherwise. Dharma is deep and profound.

 

Even if we were to search the entire globe, still it is hard to find one that can be completely detached. Try as we may, ‘attachment’ continues to arise. The reason being detachment is not a matter of ‘will’, it is a matter of prajna wisdom and only in Buddhism this is pointed out and for this I am grateful to Buddha.

 

Although it is not right to spout high views, it is also important not to over simplify matters. In my view, if our mind is filled with ‘dualistic and inherent thoughts’, even with utmost sincerity and honesty in practice, there is still no true ‘detachment’.

 

 

 

To seeker,

 

As we are so attached to our ‘dualistic and inherent views’, confusions are inevitable and the journey will not be a smooth one. For now, take AEN advice. Be strong! "

Edited February 10, 2012 by xabir2005

[JustARandomPanda]

No... You are wrong

 

 

 

 

 

Ok. I won't talk about Sutras/Realizations, etc anymore - especially since I don't know anything (Gurdjieff Man #3 - I'm most definitely not a Bodhisattva).

 

 

 

Never would I hold myself forth as any kind of expert on Buddha Nature Realizations or Sutras.

[Aaron]

Over and over I post about letting go of all beliefs, and you consistantly come back that I'm clinging to beliefs, because you believe that having no beliefs is somehow a belief,...thus I must be "vehemently in denial." Go figure!

 

Over and over I point to how your belief in your sentient beingness is a lie,...even Descartes knew it is a lie. "All that I have tried to understand to the present time has been affected by my senses; now I know these senses are deceivers, and it is prudent to be distrustful after one has been deceived once." René Descartes

 

Yet you continually stand by your belief that the "Now" is all around you,...and thus has no importance as to anything. Of course that's the perrogative of your logic,...the truth cannot be known through logic, and as such, I'm quite cautious about using it. The intellect is a deceiver.

 

You do not wish to see your intellect as a deceiver,...no biggie,...you're among the majority. Your intellect is safe.

 

Allow me once more to explain my liberal use of quotes. One reason I enjoy using quotes is for those as yourself, someone uninterested in waking up, who rejects and responds negatively to them, and thus is as a litmus test to see who is on the Short Path. A Short Pather looks impersonally at the message, and without predisposed negativity towards the messenger.

 

Very often what others have to say sometimes arouses and opens new ways of seeing or observing. Just because I agree with U.S. President Ulysses Grant for saying that church property should be supported entirely by private contributions to keep church and state forever separate, does not mean going into a debate about the life of Mr. Grant. Quotations, as I use them, are about the message within the quotation, not the profile of the messenger.

 

Quotations and aphorisms can serve as a mentoring device for those who venture into the liminal zone between duality's sciential sentience and the sapiential consciousness of nonduality, in which direct relationships with authentic teachers are often unavailable. Those already within the liminality between fragmented and unfragmented consciousness quickly recognize the difference between an authentic teaching and a false teaching. A false teacher places conditions upon one's experiences, whereas an authentic teacher does not confer about liberation or enlightenment without advancing specific practices that open the way for direct experience—that is, without a need for faith, belief, or even mathematical assumptions.

 

Whereas the Long Paths see good and evil in the world, the Short Path recognizes the basic goodness in everything, while simultaneously aware of the false that obscures it. I said recognize, not believe.

 

People of faith, such as yourself, only allow for preapproved quotes. I attempt to reach for the most appropriate quote not only for the discussion, but at the sametime, a quote whose author stirs an emotional charge in the reader so to negate my post in full. This makes it easier for me to understanding whom I'm dialoguing with, without the benefit of non-verbal clues accessible in physical dialogues.

 

You have shown yourself in nearly every post (and there have been at least a hundred responses between us), to be a judgmental, belief-driven, aggitator looking to harmonize others beliefs with his own. This is no big deal,...more than 95% of people do it. More than 95% have no interest in reality,...they merely desire dependable descriptions of an objective world that they consider intelligible, and provide them with enough diversions to keep reality away until their death.

 

My responses to you are merely for the record. It is likely that this forum will hold this record for years to come. Thus the people I'm actually interested in connecting with, that is, kindred spirits on the Short Path, may not read this until 2018. They may not even be a member of TTB, but came the post from a Search Engine.

 

Your legacy of denial, disempowerment, limitation, disconnection, belief, etc., are of little interest to someone on the Short Path. At most, your negative orientated posts are clutter to wade through. Do you see my point? Likely not! But the liberation of sentient beings such as yourself does interest me.

 

To someone on the Short Path, that is, dedicated to liberation in this lifetime, the Present is the most important inquiry, bar none.

 

V

 

V Marco,

 

Your record means nothing. You're missing the point entirely. You're stuck in this paradigm of "you", the V. Marco paradigm. These things you speak of are all you, nothing more. Now is now, then it is not now, then it is now. Is it all around us? Hmm. I would say that's not true in the least, Now is not us, but it is us. We learn to understand that now is not really there, yet we also learn that it is there. First there is the mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is the mountain. That's simple, most people understand that in their first month of studying Buddhism. In the same way we chop wood and carry water before enlightenment, then chop wood and carry water after enlightenment.

 

I think what irritates me is that you're posing as a savior, the guiding voice leading those astray to salvation, when there is no need for salvation. There is no now, there is nothing to save. The now we experience, the senses that allow us to experience this world, do not fade once one understands this, nor do they fade when one experiences it, they persist as time persists, merely understanding the basics on an experiential or logical level does not change this.

 

You brought up this topic because you believe that your theory of undivided light is infallible, that somehow you have understood something that all the men that have come before you have not, except for those few that you use to quote for those unfortunates such as me that seem to be caught up in self.

 

Let me explain this notion of self to you clearly. The reason that you argue about this is because your beliefs are you, this notion of Now, the not-you, the idea of constant time are all concepts that come from V Marco, not the original you, but the V Marco that has been defined by society to exist, the V Marco that you gauge its worth by the concepts you've learned throughout your life. The original you does not need any of this, it exists not only in the now, but before the now, after the now, and without the now. That original V Marco is not worried about logical debate, because it has nothing to worry about, it's existence is set within the very fiber of everything and nothing.

 

You think I don't understand what you're talking about, that I haven't had the fortune of experiencing it, but I have, I just realize it as being unimportant, that salvation, an end to suffering, are all tied to the "I" that we have created from our experience in the "Now", or if you want to call it, the past experience. Buddha couldn't give up this notion, this desire for salvation, so he set about teaching that guiding others to enlightenment is the highest and most selfless goal. Jesus, Mohammed, and many others came and did the same thing, but what I will tell you, not as a Buddha or Saint or prophet, but as a man, is that there is nothing that needs saving. We exist, enlightened or not, and if perhaps enlightenment shows it face to us, we will see that it has no face, but when that happens there is no joy or sadness, because in understanding the I that existed before Aaron, the You that existed before V Marco, we touch on nothing that has been divided from the totality of existence.

 

When you argue and debate this, don't fool yourself into thinking it's High compassion, it's not, rather it's the "you" that believes that no-belief is necessary. I see this all as meaningless because I understand that I don't "NEED" any of this, because my needs are already met in regards to the "I" that existed before I was born, so instead I care for the needs that I must meet as the "Aaron" that came afterwards. When the time comes and "Aaron" no longer exists, then I will still be "I", hence no need to argue or save that I, because it can never be erased, nor remembered, nor forgotten.

 

Aaron

Edited February 10, 2012 by Twinner

[Birch]

Sounds to me like you're both talking about pretty much the same stuff from pretty much the same angles and that neither of you like the fact.

 

So, whence the problem? Oh yeah, still both incarnate.

 

Sorry but I do think that understanding all this is fine and dandy and it really doesn't make much of a hog's hair of difference. In other words, if your numbers' up. It's up. IMO. The discussion happens afterwards, and that's why and how it gets entangled in the very things you thought that you had transcended.

 

----speaking only for self alert-----

 

My take, progress the discussion. People who do not know need not be caught up in the petty arguments of those who do or believe they do. You both owe it to them.

 

----personal opinion alert---alert----

[JustARandomPanda]

People who do not know need not be caught up in the petty arguments of those who do or believe they do.

 

 

 

 

 

Ah! Is always good to be smacked upside the head now and again.

 

 

Now...

 

Where was I?

 

Ah right! A mind scrubbing due to too much Spiritual Edumacation and not enough practice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

* I wonder if I will stumble upon this thread decades from now and laugh at how ignorant I was?

[Vmarco]

Edited February 10, 2012 by Vmarco

[Marblehead]

 

Ok. I won't talk about Sutras/Realizations, etc anymore - especially since I don't know anything (Gurdjieff Man #3 - I'm most definitely not a Bodhisattva).

 

Never would I hold myself forth as any kind of expert on Buddha Nature Realizations or Sutras.

 

Hehehe. It's okay to be wrong according to someone else's criteria. You just keep on keeping on.

[Z3N]

This is all just a conversation in the weeds that has lost its ture purpose, and at what cost? Instead of bringing minds into the present vmaro you have actully pull then into the fish bowl. How many fishes can one fit inside of you're little bowl? Poor little guys!

 

Anyway It's okay you're the little golden one, the self appointed preacher.

 

And so have fun!!!

[Marblehead]

Warning to all readers: If you do not wish to read something from Marblehead when he is in an irritated posture then please read no further. Thank you.

 

From the moment I first read this post I have tried to find a nice way to respond to it. I have been totally unsuccessful so I will respond in my less-than-pleasant way.

 

Here is the post I am referring to:

 

Yes,...not lazy. Lazy would be good, as Dolano said:

 

Yes,...contented. What Gurdjeiff called Man #2,...he who realizes he's in a prison, and aims to be one of the prison trustees. (Man #1 doesn't realize he's in a box, while Man #3 attempts to escape the box. Buddha would be Man #7, which has 3 aspects that only Man #4 and greater can fathom.

 

Who the fuck qualified you to judge my contentment? Who the fuck appointed you god?

 

Do you realize how utterly stupid your response was?

 

I suggested to someone else that I was contented. You come back and suggest that I am in prison wishing to be something else than what I am.

 

This is a perfect example of why I have stated in the past that Buddhism can lead one toward nihilism. You, and many other Buddhists don't want anyone to be contented or happy or at peace with themself if they do not totally accept your aborted version of Buddhism. Control freaks? No, beyond that. I think. Wannabe gods. My way or to hell with you!

 

This thread was supposed to be about living in the now. And then you say that the now doesn't exist. BullShit!!!

 

If you feel you are so well advanced in your studies I would think that you would be trying to show others how to find peace and contentment in their life rather than telling everyone who disagrees with you that they are wrong and will remain wrong until they agree with you.

 

It is sad that there are those here on this board who wish to one-up everyone else. That is not needeed. There are many members here who would enjoy some constructive input regarding their questions and opinions and slight of understanding. I think it is very counter-productive to be constantly telling others that they are in prison or constantly telling them that they are wrong. Two rights have never made a wrong. Just because one person does not agree with another there is no requirement for either of them to be wrong.

 

So, my dear friend Vmarco, please lighten up on forcing yourself and your beliefs on others.

And please stop trying to put others further into the hole than they already are. Please try to be a little more constructive and realize that "your way" is not the only way a person can find peace and contentment.

 

Thank you.

[Vmarco]

 

 

Who the fuck qualified you to judge my contentment? Who the fuck appointed you god?

 

Do you realize how utterly stupid your response was?

 

I suggested to someone else that I was contented. You come back and suggest that I am in prison wishing to be something else than what I am.

 

Thank you.

 

LOL....there is a difference between pre-judge or judgmental, and judging as a reflection. What would have the Superbowl been like if quarterback Brady wasn't judged for intentional grounding on his first play?

 

Fortunately, there are no gods,...so I could never attain such an appointment. As for Gurdjieff's hierarchy of Man,...where exactly would you place someone contented with their life as it is? There would only be two choices out of 7,....either Man #1 or #2,...so, you are scolding me for raising you to a higher level?

 

Go figure!

 

Interestingly,...back in the 70's I used to pass off the book The Fourth Way to many people,...not a single person could get past the prison analogy, somewhere around page 12. Non-Peakers (Maslows Self-Actualization) absolutely loathe the idea that perceived life could possibly be as a prision.

 

V

[xabir2005]

Rather than arguing this and that and getting mired in side-issues and thereby missing what vmarco is trying t communicate, its better for everyone to focus on the main point vmarco is trying to bring out... something that can be discovered by everyone with some investigation on their own part. This is much more beneficial and constructive.

 

What vmarco is trying to point us out is what he calls Clear Light, Presence, Timeless Present, Now.

 

This is what can only be discovered when we put all thoughts, all concepts, aside... it cannot be touched by thought, but only discovered as an undivided, non-conceptual, direct, immediate, pure presence. Just the 'actualness' of the unfabricated, naturally and undeniably Present Pure Presence. Simply abiding in this can lead to the sense of being very grounded in the Reality of the Timeless Present/Now, which is without movement.

 

The meditative experience and realization of the ISness Presence, Knowingness Presence, the AMness, is a very powerful one. It creates the impression of Certainty, Absoluteness and Realness. It creates the impression that we have touched the innermost reality of our own core being where thoughts play absolutely no role in that moment of experience. It is the conviction of your very own existence itself.

 

You will see you are much more than just an inanimate body, you are not a robot or a machine - we are pure existence-consciousness itself. Pure Presence. The luminous mind, as Buddha calls it.

Edited February 10, 2012 by xabir2005

[Marblehead]

LOL....there is a difference between pre-judge or judgmental, and judging as a reflection. What would have the Superbowl been like if quarterback Brady wasn't judged for intentional grounding on his first play?

 

Fortunately, there are no gods,...so I could never attain such an appointment. As for Gurdjieff's hierarchy of Man,...where exactly would you place someone contented with their life as it is? There would only be two choices out of 7,....either Man #1 or #2,...so, you are scolding me for raising you to a higher level?

 

Go figure!

 

Interestingly,...back in the 70's I used to pass off the book The Fourth Way to many people,...not a single person could get past the prison analogy, somewhere around page 12. Non-Peakers (Maslows Self-Actualization) absolutely loathe the idea that perceived life could possibly be as a prision.

 

V

 

Do you realize that I have no idea who Gurdjieff is or was? I have no idea what the seven levels of man are.

 

Yes, I do judge people as to their usefulness in my life. Some I judge as useful, others as useless. Nothing else matters.

 

I have been told that I need to be liberated. I am in no prison - no man's, no gods.

 

But there are prisons that societies have built and there are people in them.

 

There are blind people but I won't go into that.

[Marblehead]

The luminous mind, as Buddha calls it.

 

And Lao Tzu called it "wu wei". We Taoists like wu wei.

[xabir2005]

And Lao Tzu called it "wu wei". We Taoists like wu wei.

Not-exactly to equate it with wu wei, but wu wei is a vital part of the practice.

 

Wu Wei can lead to the discovery of the Timeless Presence.

 

Why? 'Wei' means action. All actions lead away from Presence.

 

When I discovered the Presence 2 years ago... I wrote a poem in which I still remember, part of it was... 'Not moving a step, I have arrived. (Presence)'

 

If you are already at the North Pole, all movements is a movement away from it into delusion.

Edited February 10, 2012 by xabir2005

[Marblehead]

Not-exactly to equate it with wu wei, but wu wei is a vital part of the practice.

 

Wu Wei can lead to the discovery of the Timeless Presence.

 

Why? 'Wei' means action. All actions lead away from Presence.

 

When I discovered the Presence 2 years ago... I wrote a poem in which I still remember, part of it was... 'Not moving a step, I have arrived. (Presence)'

 

If you are already at the North Pole, all movements is a movement away from it into delusion.

 

Yea! You got us to the point of no further necessary discussion because of the philosophies themselves.

 

I totally understand what you are saying and from your point of view you are exactly correct. (But then I am too, from my point of view.)

 

Yeah, "Not moving a step, I have arrived." I equate to "I am exactly where I am supposed to be."

[Vmarco]

Edited February 10, 2012 by Vmarco

[Marblehead]

[Aaron]

Yes, you have far too many predispositions to grasp the importance of the inquiry into Now.

 

For example, how do you know you chop wood and carry water after enlightenment,....are you enlightened? Or does that ignorant quote simply make your beliefs more palatable?

 

By the way,...I initiated this thread,...why are you here? You don't feel any need to recognize the Now. So are you here simply as an agitator,...stirring up ad hominem in the same habitual way found in most of your posts? Wanting to save people from VMarco's inquires into beliefs that step between sentient beings and their direct experience?

 

Honestly,...any slightly considerate person would be ashamed of themselves to post the things you post.

 

As for the Now,...believe what you will. The topic of this thread is Exploring the Now. You offered your propaganda (over, and over, and over), it has been received,...thank you. For others however, the real Present has nothing to do with Aaron's six sense view of reality.

 

Regardless of your beliefs, no "I" can experience the Now,...except Aaron's "I" of course,...but we can't all be Aaron. Some of us want to make own honest inquiry.

 

Fundamentally you have such a Christian personality. For example, the Bible says, "No bastard shall enter the assembly of the Lord, not even to the tenth generation." No biggie,...it says what it says, although newer translated versions of this law, which penalizes children for their parents' indiscretions, smooth out the wording; for example, the New American Bible now says: "No child of an incestuous union," an expedient shift in meaning, considering that finding a nonbastard child today is somewhat like seeing someone who doesn't have a tattoo.

 

But here's the Aaron crux,...like Christians who say that God the Father changed, and now we can be saved through Jesus, the Son and even bastards can go to heaven,...as if they personally met with this god and discussed it (although Jesus specifically said that he did not come to change the law, but to fulfill it, Matt 5:17),...Aaron does the samething.

 

Aaron is like a Christian,...he makes it up, in his illusory perceived now, to harmonize with his accumulated beliefs. The truth that there is no Present in time, upsets the logic of his six senses to such an extent, he must, in post after post, warn people of VMarco's terrible beliefs about the Now,...in response to the same posts where VMarco argues that all beliefs should be discarded to uncover the Now.

 

Honestly,...I think I've cracked up laughing while reading every one of your feeble posts.

 

V

 

If I said I was enlightened, what would that mean? I say enlightened and you grasp an idea, a definition from what you've learned about it, attach it to the idea, and thus decide whether or not I am or am not, based on what you've learned. Be done with knowledge. So long as you search for enlightenment you will never find it.

 

These answers you seek, the definitions you set down are not answers at all, there are no answers, just experience. Is there a now? Is there not a now? It doesn't matter. You seek something that can't be sought, because you have not lost it in the first place, you just don't see it, even though it is right there.

 

Ahh... salvation, nirvana, buddhahood, these are all illusory, they do not exist, because there is nothing to save or transcend. You simply are and so long as you are not satisfied with being what you are, then you will seek to be something else and everyone who offers you something to help you alleviate what you believe is the disease of being, you will run after them seeking it, just like a miner who hears of gold. And perhaps when you find it, if you follow the path to the end and hold it, or not hold it, as the case may be, you may also find satisfaction, or find what you were searching for, but in the end that is illusory as well.

 

You find the answer, but the world does not disappear. You ate, shat, and slept before, you will eat, shit, and sleep afterwards. Oh but now I see the dream, well the fact is you were never dreaming, rather you were simply living, and now that you see things differently, are you no longer living?

 

There is no salvation or cessation from being the "you" you have become in this life. If you think the answer lies in "now" then you are misleading yourself.

 

The problem with so many people on this board, and you included, is that you feel you must be teachers, but the fact is so long as you seek to be a teacher, you are never a teacher. We can only be students.

 

Philosophy is for foolish people. It gives no answers, because the answers are temporal and transient, the only thing that will satisfy your curiosity is experience. When I say give up your beliefs, I am telling you that your beliefs are keeping you from experiencing the actuality of what we are. Go back and examine each and every idea that makes up "you" and tell me what you are. You can't do it, because the you that existed before you became you has no definition, it is an experience. Yet when you experience you before you became you, then you can begin to experience life and see everything that came afterwards with clarity and you will have no questions, because there will be no need for answers.

 

Also, what's with all the name calling and finger pointing. If you want me to be a Christian, I'll kindly be a Christian, there's really no way for me not to be, because Aaron to you is a Christian, but what I would point out is that there are no Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, or Jews, there are just people being defined by those so attached to the temporal, that they can't see them for what they really are. If you stopped defending yourself and trying to misdirect conversations when people start punching holes in your philosophy, perhaps you could begin to see that there is no such thing as truth or untruth, or now or past, there simply is what is.

 

You're so fond of exercises it seems, so I would offer you one that might help, examine yourself and your children and tell me where you begin and your children end.

 

Aaron

Edited February 11, 2012 by Twinner