Simple_Jack Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) . Edited March 7, 2014 by Simple_Jack Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted February 12, 2012 (edited) . Edited March 7, 2014 by Simple_Jack Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted February 12, 2012 But once again, you talk of poking holes in a theory, and once again you poke no holes. A relationship with transcends continents and cultures, from the Maya Popal Vuh 9 aspects of gods, to the eight spokes of Buddhism's Wheel of Dharma upon a center hub. If you observed nature as it is, nothing is greater or less than nine. The creative force within duality arises through the perceived separation from zero. To create progeny, the nine gods of the Popal Vuh for example, that is the six lesser or boundary gods who rule the six convex spectral planes, and god seven, the three aspects of zero, must work as one to propagate the many. If you wanted to poke holes, you had months and months to do so in the 'What is Light' thread. But you did not, because you can not. 'All matter is just a mass of [divided]light.' Sri Aurobindo The only reason you don't see the holes is because you never respond to them. You cannot prove the idea of undivided light, it's just your own theory regarding light. The quote at the end, does Sri Aruobindo say "undivided light" or just "light"? I'll bet you he just says light, not undivided light, but you take it out of context, add your own addendum and think everyone is going to be fooled into believing it. So tell me how what you're espousing even remotely corresponds to Buddhist teachings? You take quotes from Western Philosophers and attribute it to Eastern Philosophy and in so doing repeatedly take the quotes out of context. Anyone who spends any deal of time examining your arguments sees this, but you never respond to the criticism, rather you create circular arguments or attempt to push the conversation into an entirely new direction, so I ask you again, are you trying to create your own brand of Buddhism? That's a simple question that you haven't answered. If anyone here believes otherwise, please speak up, but I've spent enough time reading your posts and figuring out your modus operandi to figure that out. You are stuck on concepts that have never been proven or realized by anyone who has actually been attributed to achieving enlightenment or awareness. The quotes you do make are in most cases out of context. Perhaps this is the reason you've never published anything in regards to these topics. On a theoretical basis, undivided light is a fascinating concept, in particular when one thinks of the holographic universe, etc., but trying to apply it to a spiritual context, when it's never been explained or perceived by anyone thus far is silly. Just admit it's a theory and let it go at that, otherwise provide the factual evidence. Before I finish, let me ask you again, because I want an honest answer, are you trying to start your own brand, school, sect, of Buddhism? If not, then what school do you actually follow and provide detailed evidence of this, rather than out of context quotes. Aaron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vmarco Posted February 12, 2012 No, your link to this thread: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/22178-about-the-nature-of-non-existence/page__st__96 That was an analogy to help explain Serene Blue's question regarding Steiner's cosmological point of view with alaya. V Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vmarco Posted February 12, 2012 The only reason you don't see the holes is because you never respond to them. You cannot prove the idea of undivided light, it's just your own theory regarding light. You are one dense individual. First, you have yet "poke a hole" at anything,...unless you truly believe that saying "Undivided is just your theory", is somehow poking a hole. Undivided Light is nothing new,...the equation E=mc² certainly points to it. Just because you see the World as a flat, dreary place, that is all there is,....and that you carry water both before and after enlightenment, is the insane nonsense of someone smothered in their six senses. I've mentioned examples over and over and over of how this relates to Buddhism,...for example I recently reposted the story of Angulimala, and numerous other things, and it goes right past you like a child in his own little world, focused on a toy in a store. As you have been bringing up "poke holes", and you fail to present anything in that regard, my impression is that you are desireous for me to "poke holes" in your BS. For example how you spent enough time reading my posts,....1. that's great, now go away,...and 2. you haven't read my posts at all, so stop saying you have. The quotes I use are never OUT OF CONTEXT to the context in which I'm using them. That is simply a testament to your neurotic, aspergers-like instance that everything fits perfectly into your little world. And finally,...your bizarre statement that a nine-planed holographic matrix would have no connection or application with spiritual reality is moronic. As for brands, school, gurus, etc., that is rude and a blatant ad homenim. My posts have clearly stated that I has no interests in teaching, teachers, gurus, schools, beliefs or other nonsense that steps between people and their direct experience. As for your posts, they prove that you are an arrogant, dishonable person, uninterested in any reasonable debate, dialogue, or inquiry. Your posts show that you are devoid of having any interest in contributing to the evolution and liberation of humanity. And I would welcome anyone, who wish to waste their time, to follow your posts through any thread and find something to the contrary. May your life be short, so to begin anew, with less irritating baggage, for any breakthoughs in this incarnation appear quite unlikely. V Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted February 12, 2012 You are one dense individual. First, you have yet "poke a hole" at anything,...unless you truly believe that saying "Undivided is just your theory", is somehow poking a hole. Undivided Light is nothing new,...the equation E=mc² certainly points to it. Just because you see the World as a flat, dreary place, that is all there is,....and that you carry water both before and after enlightenment, is the insane nonsense of someone smothered in their six senses. I've mentioned examples over and over and over of how this relates to Buddhism,...for example I recently reposted the story of Angulimala, and numerous other things, and it goes right past you like a child in his own little world, focused on a toy in a store. As you have been bringing up "poke holes", and you fail to present anything in that regard, my impression is that you are desireous for me to "poke holes" in your BS. For example how you spent enough time reading my posts,....1. that's great, now go away,...and 2. you haven't read my posts at all, so stop saying you have. The quotes I use are never OUT OF CONTEXT to the context in which I'm using them. That is simply a testament to your neurotic, aspergers-like instance that everything fits perfectly into your little world. And finally,...your bizarre statement that a nine-planed holographic matrix would have no connection or application with spiritual reality is moronic. As for brands, school, gurus, etc., that is rude and a blatant ad homenim. My posts have clearly stated that I has no interests in teaching, teachers, gurus, schools, beliefs or other nonsense that steps between people and their direct experience. As for your posts, they prove that you are an arrogant, dishonable person, uninterested in any reasonable debate, dialogue, or inquiry. Your posts show that you are devoid of having any interest in contributing to the evolution and liberation of humanity. And I would welcome anyone, who wish to waste their time, to follow your posts through any thread and find something to the contrary. May your life be short, so to begin anew, with less irritating baggage, for any breakthoughs in this incarnation appear quite unlikely. V Finger point, finger point, name calling, circular argument... etc. This is the way you behave in a debate. You ignore those things you can't argue and focus on those that you can. Did Sri Aruobindo say "undivided light" or "light", that's just one example. As far as poking holes in your theories, I spent three or four replies poking at your idea of Now, but you failed to see the reasoning, and thus it was obviously wrong. I think the reason you hang out here is that you can't hang out on Buddhist forums because they would've given you the boot long ago. Taobums is more lenient when it comes to freedom of expression. You're absolutely right, I'm not interested in liberating people. Track my record and you'll find I've been saying a few things for as long as I've been around, one that morality is an illusion, that there's no such thing as good and evil, that enlightenment is experiential and any attempt to describe it is pointless conjecture, and that beliefs, religions, philosophies, and politics in particular lead people away from their original nature, preventing them from experiencing their original nature. Lastly what you're attempting to do is save people, i.e. liberate people, and I see no need to liberate anyone, because there is nothing wrong with people, rather what's wrong is the illusion that people are taught to believe that something is wrong with them. Also, I'm not the only one that's picking up on the quotes out of context thing, if I was I'd happily admit that I was wrong in that respect. In the end this doesn't matter to me so much, which is the reason I have two responses a day on average in regards to this and you have seven or eight. I just don't like seeing people suffer when they don't have to and your teachings, Buddhism, Christianity, and all the other religions and philosophies out there just propagate this suffering. I don't need quotes to point this out, just watch the daily news. If people need any kind of liberation it's liberation from all religion and philosophy. Again philosophy is the domain of fools and I would add religion as well. Don't take this as a personal assault on you, I don't dislike you in the least, if anything I feel for you, because I know how religion can screw with your mind. Maybe someday after you've spent enough time you'll see what I'm talking about, but unfortunately the more ego stroking the religious receive the less likely they are to recognize the folly of their ways. Aaron edit- Correction. I've only come to a view of religion and philosophy diverting one from their true spirituality in the last year or so, but I've viewed religion as an institution as being harmful for quite awhile. Just wanted to clarify. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jetsun Posted February 12, 2012 May your life be short, so to begin anew, with less irritating baggage, for any breakthoughs in this incarnation appear quite unlikely. V You have a talent at hiding your hostility and aggression in a load of spiritual robes i'll give you that, i'd be surprised if there was anyone who can't see through it though for what it really is. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vmarco Posted February 13, 2012 You have a talent at hiding your hostility and aggression in a load of spiritual robes i'll give you that, i'd be surprised if there was anyone who can't see through it though for what it really is. Hummm,...and what do tell is it really? Except for top posts, All my posts are reflections of the posts they respond to. Aaron is obviously a masochist, and thus the responses mirror back to him what he his giving. This post is a response to your sad comments of "hostility and aggression." Aaron believes that the Now is what his six senses tell him,...but we don't know your opinion,...for like Aaron, you choose ad homenim over reasonable content. Personally I could care less about your surprise of anyone not seeing this alledged hostility and aggression,...I stand by my every post as evidence that each response mirrors the post being responded to. Unfortunity, most are absorbed in little games, and as such are only interested in little games. Instead of Exploring the Now, the topic of this thread, they prefer to disrupt what they don't wish to understand. However, to explore the Now,...all that psychobabble must be let go. This doesn't happen because most rather cling to mediocrity. As Wilber said, "Human Potential movement got derailed and was replaced by this therapeutic self-expression, self-acceptence movement." http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/22509-how-attached-to-your-ideas-are-you/page__st__32__p__322794__hl__mediocity__fromsearch__1entry322794 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted February 13, 2012 Well, doesn't it go both ways this 'mirror' idea? Certainly if you think of the mirror you see yourself in it doesn't actually do anything. In other words it's not deciding what parts of your reflection to reflect back. You, however, do seem to be making some specific choices about what to reflect back to people. Certainly I can feel a bit of hostility in these exchanges. Should I (as Scotty once suggested) then attribute that hostility only to myself because I'm the only one that can do anything about it? I dunno Vmarco, you've got some interesting ideas but do you have a better approach? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vmarco Posted February 13, 2012 Well, doesn't it go both ways this 'mirror' idea? Certainly if you think of the mirror you see yourself in it doesn't actually do anything. In other words it's not deciding what parts of your reflection to reflect back. You, however, do seem to be making some specific choices about what to reflect back to people. Certainly I can feel a bit of hostility in these exchanges. Should I (as Scotty once suggested) then attribute that hostility only to myself because I'm the only one that can do anything about it? I dunno Vmarco, you've got some interesting ideas but do you have a better approach? Not really,...mirrors do not necessarily go back and forth like in a fun house. For example, look at the 12 austerities of Naropa. Naropa, fully indoctrinated in the Brahmic belief system, spent several tormented years in the service of what many would judge to be a cruel master. Nevertheless, Tilopa, through the guidance of a dakini, only mirrored to Naropa that which Naropa reflected. Authentic people do not avoid or instruct in roundabout ways or through euphemisms. The word Naropa, I was told, means “the pain is killing me.” Na means pain, ro is the word for killing, and pa personifies it. In contrast to Naropa’s awakening, his pupil, Lama Marpa Lotsawa, is said to have grasped the Short Path’s doctrine rather easily. On the other hand, Marpa reportedly tormented his pupil Milarespa for years to shock his ego clingings loose. However, did Marpa torture Milarespa, or did Milaraspa radiate a frequency to have a torturous instruction mirrored back? My approach is quite simple,...respond accordingly. This works well for me because there is no agenda to win over people. Overall, the odds are small that very many people are honest enough to engage in dialogues with me in a considerate way. In most activities I don't expect honesty, like from the grocery clerk, banker, or gym attendent,...on TTB there is no point in coddling negative people, especially those with a history of ad homenim. Actually, in the material world people are quite attracted to my physical vibration,...people constantly smile at me, and sense the impersonal joy I give off. I am a beautiful being, with little baggage of accumulated beliefs cloaking or obscuring that vibration. Everyone is a beautiful being, although most are so smothered in beliefs that their basic goodness is barely reflected through the filters. V 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) . Edited March 7, 2014 by Simple_Jack Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Informer Posted February 13, 2012 Incidentally one must choose to be defensive in order to take offense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vmarco Posted February 13, 2012 So, I looked up The Flowering Light Tantra by Tonpa Shenrab Miwo The nine swastikas represent the Nine Ways of Bön, the Nine Ways of Bon The Flowering Light Tantra there is mention of "nine levels," again this is referring to the nine qualities of space. You certainly jumped in on the subject. As you notice, there is little direct explanatory info, and yet this background of nines is everywhere. Why hold the Dorjie, Vajra, or swastika at the 9th point if it has no significance. What about the nines of Metatrons Cube, or the Sri Yantra, or how the enneagram works. It's all analogous with the mechanics of tori (waves/empty) and spheres (particles/form). Nine is the first manifestation from zero. All form/emptiness occurs through nine optic planes,...it's the multiplying/dividing nature of the optically organized universe. Yes,...this probably appears bizarre at first (and maybe at second and third),...it's not common knowledge. As Charles F. Haanel said, "The mind cannot comprehend an entirely new idea until a corresponding vibratory brain cell has been prepared to receive it." If this subject continues to peek your interest, I'll be glad to dialogue where I can. However, most of my understanding is related to light, and thus how I attempt to make comparisons. What Buddha taught must match the nature of light,...and from all I've looked into, it does. V Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vmarco Posted February 13, 2012 Incidentally one must choose to be defensive in order to take offense. Sounds competitive to me. http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19563-oxymorons-that-hinder-awakening/page__st__64__p__278570__hl__Alfie%20Kohn__fromsearch__1entry278570 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted February 13, 2012 You have a talent at hiding your hostility and aggression in a load of spiritual robes i'll give you that, i'd be surprised if there was anyone who can't see through it though for what it really is. Hummm,...and what do tell is it really? Except for top posts, All my posts are reflections of the posts they respond to. Aaron is obviously a masochist, and thus the responses mirror back to him what he his giving. This post is a response to your sad comments of "hostility and aggression." Aaron believes that the Now is what his six senses tell him,...but we don't know your opinion,...for like Aaron, you choose ad homenim over reasonable content. Personally I could care less about your surprise of anyone not seeing this alledged hostility and aggression,...I stand by my every post as evidence that each response mirrors the post being responded to. Unfortunity, most are absorbed in little games, and as such are only interested in little games. Instead of Exploring the Now, the topic of this thread, they prefer to disrupt what they don't wish to understand. However, to explore the Now,...all that psychobabble must be let go. This doesn't happen because most rather cling to mediocrity. As Wilber said, "Human Potential movement got derailed and was replaced by this therapeutic self-expression, self-acceptence movement." http://www.thetaobum..._1entry322794 More redirection and self justification for one's actions, based on faulty logic and a misunderstanding of compassion. You say nasty things, not because you're "mirroring" but because you're pissed off, but then truly enlightened people don't get pissed off, so you have to justify your inability to be kind and compassionate to everyone regardless of circumstance. I ignored your hostility, not because I'm a masochist, but because it has no bearing on who I am. You can wish me a short life all you like, but it will have no bearing on whether my life is shorter or not, the only bearing on that is my diet, genetics, and lifestyle. I could say, "how dare you say such a thing to me!" But what does it change? Nothing. You are still locked into this idea that knowledge somehow leads to enlightenment, but it doesn't. Debate about the "now" all you want, but your new view isn't going to lead you or anyone else to their original nature. In closing, very little of what you say can be attributed to Buddha himself, but rather to devotees that came along several centuries later. Now if you could give me a quote from Buddha, not one attributed to Buddha by someone who came along 500 years later, but to Buddha, then I would say what you're talking about is related to Buddhism. Almost everything I've studied regarding Buddhism has to do with Buddha, Bodhidharma, or Zen, so my actual knowledge regarding Mahayana and Theravada is slim at best. I have read a great deal about what Buddha said, and from that knowledge I've come to understand that most people that came after Buddha bastardized his teachings. I don't think Buddha intended for his teaching to become the basis of an institutionalized religion. From what I know about what he said, I don't think he would've laid down the Ten Precepts for instance, nor do I think he would've been keen on how many of the later masters/teachers/monks describing enlightenment. Buddha taught freedom, the Buddhists teach reliance, plain and simple. Now what I can agree on is that one should not allow the idea of "Now" to influence their own understanding of "now", but rather that one's experience should shed light on it. That means that, in my opinion, you don't describe now, you don't define now, you tell others to investigate now and then if they choose they can come back and tell you what they've learned. That's the only way for someone to have an honest, unbiased understanding of "Now". That's what I was saying, not that you're wrong per se, because there is no such thing as right or wrong, it's subjective, but rather that it is better to allow someone to examine it unfettered by religiosity and ideology. Now if you could ever refrain from attacking people, then justifying those attacks by making snide comments you believe will get under the skin of those people you're talking to, then we could begin to have a discussion about this, but you just say, "NO! This is how it is, you don't know!" Rather than, I will think about this and get back to you. So what does your belief in now mean if you throw it out and examine now without preconceptions or beliefs, where do you go from there? Aaron 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) . Edited March 7, 2014 by Simple_Jack Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vmarco Posted February 14, 2012 "When there is freedom from conditioning, there is simplicity. The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow - you are not understanding yourself. The man who is really serious, with the urge to find out what truth is, has no style at all. He lives only in what is. If you want to understand the truth, you must throw away the notion of styles or schools, prejudices, likes and dislikes, and so forth. Then, your mind will cease all conflict and come to rest. In this silence, you will see totally and freshly. " - Lee Jun-fan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Informer Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Finding someone with a level of credibility that you could approve of is one thing,...finding an academic or someone with credentials you approve of, to discuss the nature of nine, or anything beyond the six senses that would actually be useful, is improbable. Your posts suggest you are too learned to understand what is being presented. One could say, you are too overqualified to transcend the 6 senses. As Buddha implied, in all the world, there is nothing harder to govern than an learned mind. And even with the greatest desire, it is difficult to let go of the indoctrinations. Look a Naropa and his austerities to break through the conditioning of his brahmic indoctrinations. He endured 12 minor and 12 major life threatening tests,...would you even endure 1 minor one? Although this is my thread, you can have the last snappy word. V I don't think it is impossible really, all you need to begin is to realize how little you really know and what it means to know, they sorta go hand in hand. (imo) Edited February 14, 2012 by Informer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vmarco Posted February 14, 2012 I don't think it is impossible really, all you need to begin is to realize how little you really know and what it means to know, they sorta go hand in hand. (imo) Fundamentally, all human knowledge is impermanent, and has no value beyond a six sense orientated reality. The statement of realizing how little one knows appears helpful,...IMO the bigger goal would be to realize how much one doesn't know. Ultimately, a person seriously committed to an inquiry about the nature of perceived reality, would want to know as little as possible, but to know not a very great deal. Basically, those who know do not gnow. "The biggest crux to the evolution of humanity is breaking through your own indoctrination. It is very, very difficult to overcome emotional elements that have become so engrained in you, that you have an immediate reaction, an immediate suffering and pain, if something interfers with [your idea of the status quo]. It's a very, very complex problem. We have to learn how to identify and break our own indoctrination if we expect to move forward at all as a civilization" PJ Merola http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCWNgSa7GvA Minute 11:00 - 17:43 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ulises Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) from "Shaking and Uplifting "Enlightenment" Spirituality 2012 Onward" group at facebook "If Freud and his rx sequelae had been geniuses of shared romantic love that lasts/grows over a lifetime, instead of his myopic focus on 'individual desire', we would not think much of the endlessly advertised therapy goal of: 'you will no longer be driven by the need for love and acceptance from your parents and others, because you will find it in yourself.' The service of rx would instead be 100 years into ways of re-attuning entire families to this sustaining wholeness whereby we do give and receive nourishing love with parents with children, with spouse/partners, and so on.." *** "When tribes of complete families lived together, joyous births, rites of passage, marriages and funereal deaths surrounded all in the wholeness of life so that ego-creativity and its humbling dissolution naturally balanced everyone. A few awakened the primordial force through depths of inner marriage and became saints for their tribe. Much of the fragmented, technique-and-aphorism-based spirituality in these times is a patchwork trying to make up for this lost surround of organic wholeness-- a spirituality of (embodied) Life Itself---and the rare depths attained by a few extraordinary saints. That (embodied) is so often added in is most telling re this patchwork reconstruction of the wholeness." *** "That teachers talk so much about Now instead of Lifetime is also telling, as if a Now that lasts that long is too much for us to bear ..." ~Stuart Sovatsky Edited February 14, 2012 by Ulises Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Simple_Jack Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) . Edited March 7, 2014 by Simple_Jack Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johndoe2012 Posted February 18, 2012 ...but then truly enlightened people don't get pissed off ... What is your source for this? Quoting Kenneth Folk - a person I would consider "enlightened". from http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/97419 In the interest of full disclosure, though, I must admit that after twenty years of enthusiastically practicing vipassana, both with and without noting, anger continues to arise whenever conditions are favorable for it. However, "enlightened" people know how to skilfully handle anger. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xabir2005 Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) What is your source for this? Quoting Kenneth Folk - a person I would consider "enlightened". from http://dharmaoverground.org/web/guest/discussion/-/message_boards/message/97419 However, "enlightened" people know how to skilfully handle anger. This quotation by Kenneth no longer stands as of late 2010. Kenneth Folk reports to have overcome those emotions and also attained what I call the realizaton of Anatta in late 2010. Check out http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/thread/4412660/A+Seven+Stage+Model+of+Enlightenment+%28New+Video%29 Edited February 18, 2012 by xabir2005 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
