Taoist INTENT and Goal Manifestation

[Marblehead]

I would disagree with your definitions of "intent" vs "intention". To state categorically that "the mind is not involved" is inaccurate, IMO. Intent is a manfestation of mind. It is a very specific manifestation certainly, but not independent of and unrelated to mind.

I am glad my earlier statement was misunderstood so that this discussion can take place.

 

I do not disagree with what is being said.

[Birch]

I'd say that 'intention' applies some kind of force to any given situation. The idea being you want something other than it is.

I don't know about 'intent'.

I don't understand quantum anything.

[zerostao]

@-K-

"I don't understand quantum anything"

i dont think anyone does to include heisenberg, dirac, schrödinger, for sure einstein didnt have a clue about it. and how could he know if God played dice or not?

this problem of infinity is what the geometry thread is looking at now.

quantum physics, cutting edge brain science, nueroscience, quantum geometry are not exactly coming up with the same view.

many paradox exist (quantum and taoist) my favorite being mind of no mind

 

no edit i was gonna post a project i had helped with. but it isnt neccessary.

Edited February 13, 2012 by zerostao

[Marblehead]

... my favorite being mind of no mind ...

Hehehe. Yeah, work on that one with your mind for a while.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Words are words, you can argue semantics and debate what the 'real' definitions are and what is being said ad infinitum.

 

The point is, that there are two fundamentally and tangibly different things being discussed. Once experienced for yourself, or feeling the result of someone doing this to you, it is clear that they are not the same thing. It really is a 'has to be felt/experienced' thing.

 

Ya Mu uses the words intention and INTENT to make the differentiation, but don't get caught up with the terms. The map is not the...blah blah blah..

 

Whenever this gets brought up it seems to devolve into arguments over the words or thinking there is no difference and it is all semantics to differentiate one system from another. It is not, it is simply two approaches (there maybe more, but polarities work well as a teaching model). Leave the judgement values aside for a moment and appreciate that throughout history people have developed more than one way to skin a cat

 

Best,

[Marblehead]

... more than one way to skin a cat

 

Best,

 

You leave my cats alone!!!

[humbleone]

Thank you all for your replies. right on snowmonki.

 

So the question remains, how do we skin this cat, use 'IT' to achieve a goal? Are goals different than a healing?

 

The example I used earlier: to get a perfect score in college admissions test.

 

Bill Gates(Microsoft) had a perfect score, but only on the math portion , ofcourse then he enrolled in Harvard and the rest as they say is history.

 

TTB Marbleheads point about elbow grease, that one still needs to study for the test is not lost.

 

So 'IT' has to accomplish a LOT. A LOT of inner and perhaps universal alignment has to take place. The student would live and breathe this goal, study for endless hours, the universe perhaps then moves to assist him/her. Maybe he meets another student and they study together or find a gifted tutor etc.

 

Someone here mentioned the factor of non-caring, just 'do it', taking all emotion out of studying, this goal. Not caring about the results, so elements of wu wei.

 

A goal ofcourse can be anything, if you are a healer, to double your TCM practice in one year etc...How does one go about using Taoist principles of 'IT' to accmplish it?

 

All the best

[zerostao]

Words are words, you can argue semantics and debate what the 'real' definitions are and what is being said ad infinitum.

 

The point is, that there are two fundamentally and tangibly different things being discussed. Once experienced for yourself, or feeling the result of someone doing this to you, it is clear that they are not the same thing. It really is a 'has to be felt/experienced' thing.

 

Ya Mu uses the words intention and INTENT to make the differentiation, but don't get caught up with the terms. The map is not the...blah blah blah..

 

Whenever this gets brought up it seems to devolve into arguments over the words or thinking there is no difference and it is all semantics to differentiate one system from another. It is not, it is simply two approaches (there maybe more, but polarities work well as a teaching model). Leave the judgement values aside for a moment and appreciate that throughout history people have developed more than one way to skin a cat

 

Best,

 

i understand snowmonki. i am not contending anything with anyone. i am speaking of my experience not anyone elses. and as far as even the mind of no mind goes i have had glimpses of that. would i call it a quantum event? maybe i would. but the word quantum for some is a charged or loaded concept. personally i dont have a problem with it.

i totally understand and have experience that some of these experiences are hard to put into words and they need to be felt. and the feeling only comes after a time of practice/playing with it.

i have been very consistent about this since my arrival on TTB. to be sure baguazhang is very rich in this very thing. for example how am i gonna sound if i am telling a fellow player that if they are to walk in this particular way, after a time of practicing/playing this type of walking that they will be floating ? they may look at me as being completely bonkers, right?

 

edit> maybe i need to always include a smilley face with all of my posts. i understand that typing words and sending to someone we have not met in person can be recieved in a manner that was not intended by the sender. i understand that there are bums here with a much higher level of understanding in taoist arts than i have and it is fantastically wonderful that we have the opportunity to exchange messages with. i like to question things and in doing so i am not challenging anyones knowledge. quite the contrary in fact.

Edited February 14, 2012 by zerostao

[寒月 Hanyue]

i understand snowmonki. i am not contending anything with anyone. i am speaking of my experience not anyone elses.

 

Please know that my post was not a response to any one particular person. My comments are generalised. Thing is most people on this board 'know' what I posted, it is nothing new. Sometimes we forget what we know and I am certainly no different. There are plenty of posts by me that I am sure read as different as to why I was posting (if that makes sense).

 

ALL you can ever do, is speak from your own experience. The fact that you do and don't simply parrot is a good thing (no patronisation or condescension intended in that). There is never anything wrong with that. As I was reminded over the week end though "you don't know, what you don't know" and in many ways that is something cultivation is about. It is only when we have a realisation or insight into the true nature of something that we also have a realisation of what we didn't know before that awakening. It is paradoxical. When you are not aware of the existence of something you cannot look for it, to seek understanding of it. Maybe this is why the Dao is seen as a mystery to be embraced as is and as it unfolds and reveals itself to you.

 

One chap responded to our teacher saying "well I just accept that I don't know anything", but this is fundamentally different to having insight into what was not 'known'.

 

Before I felt the difference, reading descriptions by or being taught by people who don't know the difference it all seemed to be different ways of describing the same thing. Just preferences for description. Now when listen I can tell who is taking about which and where they are coming from. It provides an insight into what they know and what they do. No judgement of good/bad or better/worse etc. Just observation.

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

So the question remains, how do we skin this cat, use 'IT' to achieve a goal? Are goals different than a healing?

 

The answer that comes to mind is for you to read 'Neko no myojutsu' by Issai Chozan. He was swordsman and a Daoist. Translations appear free on the web I beleive.

 

INTENT, at the highest level while, to use Ya Mu's terms, "Dancing in the wu wei" is the cat that simply IS, that the Master cat alludes to.

 

Healing is not a goal, it is an outcome. "Curing" is an attempt at a goal, and is different (I'm trying not to fall into semantics ).

 

It appears lineage looks after those that embrace it, and not always in ways you might think of. There is something to giving up a certain volition, allowing/listening etc To practice is simply to practice, practice and things happen.

 

To practice to make things happen, means expectation, expectation means limitation. You can miss what is happening because your mind is on what you want to happen. As I said "you don't know what you don't know". If you only chase what you "know", then you may shut yourself off to awakening to what you don't know.

 

Embracing "not knowing", is something I have only more recently been experiencing though my teachers pointed it out a while ago. I didn't hear what they were saying.

 

To not have 'goals' does NOT imply passivity or laziness. But how to achieve without goals? thats the paradox too

 

INTENT is not about manifesting what YOU want, or even what you THINK you want. Sometimes we have to let go of ourselves. The closest thing I can think of to what you may be trying to get at would simply be called prayer. Which in many ways is asking for something with INTENT.

 

Best,

[humbleone]