Arhats?

[JustARandomPanda]

Have 1st or 2nd stage Arhats Realized 2-Fold Emptiness and Dependent Origination?

[xabir2005]

Traditionally, stream entry to Arhats realize (at least) the First Emptiness, anatta.

 

They also realize and experience dependent origination, but not to the extent of the emptiness of all phenomena.

 

Bodhisattvas realize two emptiness.

 

 

Here is an excerpt from a Buddhist glossary site on the definition of twofold Emptiness:

 

Two emptinesses (二空) include (1) emptiness of self, the ātman, the soul, in a person composed of the five aggregates, constantly changing with causes and conditions; and (2) emptiness of selves in all dharmas—each of the five aggregates, each of the twelve fields, and each of the eighteen spheres, as well as everything else with no independent existence. No-self in any dharma implies no-self in a person, but the latter is separated out in the first category. Realization of the emptiness of self in a person will lead to attainment of Arhatship or Pratyekabuddhahood. Bodhisattvas who have realized both emptinesses ascend to the First Ground on their Way to Buddhahood.

Edited February 12, 2012 by xabir2005

[Informer]

More like realization of 2nd fold emptiness of self prior to realization of metta = arhat.

 

Stuck in nirvana, until a Buddha can bring him/her out. (imo)

 

For instance, anamatva likely is realizing emptiness of self within metta, rather than realizing it within the mind. Therefore made it through without falling into nirvana and will likely become a "bodhi", if you care for such labels, terms, and traditions.

 

(*shrug*)

Edited February 12, 2012 by Informer

[xabir2005]

More like realization of 2nd fold emptiness of self prior to realization of metta = arhat.

 

Stuck in nirvana, until a Buddha can bring him/her out. (imo)

Not true. Since Metta was taught in the Pali Suttas, a large number, I think most, of the Arhats would have been trained in that.

 

So having metta is not equivalent to Bodhisattva. Lots of Arhats have experienced metta. Lots of mundane people too have experienced metta. Metta is one of the Brahmaviharas - mundane but virtuous mental qualities that are meritorious and can lead to rebirth in the Brahma worlds for a long time, but in itself does not lead to liberation.

 

An Arhat is one who realizes the 1st fold emptiness - evidenced by the Abhidhamma and commentaries substantializing phenomena while teaching no subjective self.

 

Anyway, a Bodhisattva is one who vows to attain Buddhahood, and such a person who, after realizing twofold emptiness, attains to the 1st Bhumi Bodhisattva stage.

Edited February 12, 2012 by xabir2005

[Informer]

It is the realization of the emptiness that is an attribute of metta, that is inherently bringing compassion and realization of the rest.

 

It isn't something to think, only can ever be articulated after the fact.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Informer

[xabir2005]

Lots of Arhats also have very big compassion and led much more people to liberation than any Mahayana teachers today... you should read Great Disciples of the Buddha.

 

Big compassion and metta however, does not mean you have taken the vow to continue your practice until Buddhahood. In the case of Arhats, their compassion manifest only within that life, and after that, since they do not make Bodhicitta vows, they simply enter into cessation... for a very long time.

Edited February 12, 2012 by xabir2005

[Informer]

Yes, yet it is different. You won't be able to see what I am speaking of from that perspective you have chosen.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Lots of Arhats also have very big compassion and led much more people to liberation than any Mahayana teachers today... you should read Great Disciples of the Buddha.

 

Big compassion and metta however, does not mean you have taken the vow to continue your practice until Buddhahood. In the case of Arhats, their compassion manifest only within that life, and after that, since they do not make Bodhicitta vows, they simply enter into cessation... for a very long time.

Informer said realization of metta, not experience of metta.

 

If you are taking the Bodhicitta vow for the sake of becoming a Buddha, then that is not a true Bodhicitta vow. It's a backwards Bodhicitta.

 

You become Buddha as a result of taking the Bodhicitta vow.

 

Also an arhat takes vows to become an arhat, which to the arhat is what the Buddha was (although the Buddha says something that separates him from all the arhats he teaches in the pali canon). So to the arhat he is vowing to become a Buddha. It's not like the arhat says to himself, "hey, I'm going to just become an arhat and not a Buddha, because, you know, I want to kind of cease for a while before the Buddha pulls me out so I can become a Bodhisattva."

Edited February 12, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Informer]

An attachment to words, that are inherently meaningless, does not mean a realization of the purity of heart. (imo)

[xabir2005]

We should not look down on arhats by thinking they are not compassionate, does not have metta, etc.

 

Correct knowledge of what entails arhat and bodhisattva is therefore important.

[Informer]

I personally think the focus should be on letting the decision being made with more experience before it is evident to be a decision with incomplete experience.

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Informer]

I was able to experience unconditional love and compassion.

 

?

[Informer]

This is not accurate. An Arhat realizes anatta or the emptiness of the self. This has nothing to do with merging with a "void" or merging with any state or realm or any "thing." It merely has to do with the absence of self-grasping (self-grasping represents the obscuration of emotions.) Metta is the first of the 4 Brahmavihara's, which are developed in all religions. Bodhicitta is the resolve to continue cultivating towards buddhahood for the sake of all sentient beings; instead of "retiring" into the Arhats 9th samadhi of cessation (Nirodha Samapatti.)

 

You don't have to take the vow to see what it is pointing at. That's the whole thing, the truth of religions is to point that out first an foremost imo.

 

If all a bodhi means is to take a vow, then I misunderstood that term completely.

 

So Arhat is only realized single emptiness of "ego" or "residual self-image" or "self" ? Is that what you are saying?

Edited February 19, 2012 by Informer

[Informer]

How is it possible to judge unknown phenomena as empty without experiencing the unknown phenomenon as empty first?

 

If I told you the matrix was an analogy for something real would you believe me or find out for yourself?

 

Edited February 19, 2012 by Informer

[C T]

(self-grasping represents the obscuration of emotions.) Metta is the first of the 4 Brahmavihara's, which are developed in all religions. Bodhicitta is the resolve to continue cultivating towards buddhahood for the sake of all sentient beings; instead of "retiring" into the Arhats 9th samadhi of cessation (Nirodha Samapatti.)

Could you explain how it is that self-grasping represents the obscuration of emotions? I could not see the connection sorry.

 

On a practical level, the idea of reminding oneself to always try and generate bodhicitta is also a reminder to always try to be aware, to check our very next thought, our next utterance, and our next action. Sometimes its not helpful to just think of how noble the vow is because a lot of buddhist practitioners i know have the tendency to remain 'elevated' after taking the vows, unaware of their actions and demeanor while in others' presence, often giving off the vibe that they are somehow more 'superior' just because they think they are all fantastic bodhisattvas and they need to make chunky sacrifices to 'save' sentient beings..constantly going on and on about buddhahood, arhatship, and using all these sanskrit lingo which can really stress the less orientated newbies to no end. While it can be entertaining at times, very often their enthusiasm (overjoy) simply makes them look constipated, carrying themselves as if they have a major cross to bear all the time. How mistaken they are. It shows a total lack of ignorance arising from muddled thinking. If you have lived in a buddhist sangha or have worked in a buddhist center (especially a Tibetan one) for an extended period such kinds of behaviors can very easily be observed to be prevalent. But the head teacher or sangha leader often allow these carry-ons to carry on, because he or she realizes that people will always be people, with their follies and weaknesses and ego plays, and Buddhist bodhisattva pretenders are certainly not exempted, with each person having to go through their own journeys, make their own mistakes and come to their own realizations before lasting change can be effected.

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

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[Simple_Jack]

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[xabir2005]

My friend Simpo (who is of deep realizations) wrote today:

 

Hi Aik TC,

 

Thanks for the sharing.

 

So far my (what a paradox) experience of no-self has been without emotional content.. Currently, a sizeable chunk of waking hours and at times sleeping times too are in no-self mode. No-self mode has a direct immediate awareness feeling.

 

Without a sense of self, the aggregates are not 'connected' via a center self reference. This lack of self-reference allows the 'fuzziness/fogginess' of self to be cleared away. When there is a sense of self, there can be emotional investment in the content/thought. as well as sensations.. this results in a fogginess of consciousness.In self-mode, one is not aware that the experiences in one's life are actually mind's appearance/contents. This non-recognition causes the sucking into and following of thoughts as if there are real at that time of their arising.

 

In no-self mode, awareness is aware of contents as thoughts...contents loses their semantics and solidity. This at times gives a certain feeling of freedom. It is as if there can be activities, but there is no-one there performing them. In the self-mode, one is invested in the story of one's life.. In no-self mode, this story/experiences are clearly seem as mind's contents and thoughts.... no entirely real, yet not entirely false too... dream-like.

 

If I feel angry, i know that the thoughts/'mind story' of me and an object/person that is making me angry is being played out . Awareness have already being become foggy... And thus it is time to re-establish awareness. The problem... is that once the 'sucking into' is too strong ... any action that is being performed is out of desperation and is via a sense of self.

 

Note.. the way that is being written here is as if awareness is something separate from mind's content. It is not. Awareness is not an object/thing.

 

BTW... i just bought 'Vivid Awareness' a few days ago. A good book and am gaining certain insights from it.

[Simple_Jack]

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Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Informer]

Bodhicitta, is to work towards buddhahood for the sake of all sentient beings.

 

Realization of anatta gets rid of All forms of self-grasping (88 Deluded Viewpoints My link.) This includes the reification of the experience of non-dual "Awareness." It is realizing that there was never was a separate subject from objects to begin with. So there is no longer a reification of an "awareness," "reflecting." Like Xabir has been saying: No longer a reification of a subjective self (In thinking, no thinker; in seeing, no seer; in hearing, no hearer, etc. This is related to the realization of anatta.) In Buddhism, "Awareness" is not some "thing" that is absolutely established. In Buddhism, the usage of the term "awareness," is only used as a means of teaching.

 

The realization of anatta has to with Thusness stage 5 My link:

 

Stage 5: No Mirror Reflecting

 

There is no mirror reflecting

All along manifestation alone is.

The one hand claps

Everything IS!

 

 

 

"Remember, the whole thing is hopeless. Taking care of the environment is hopeless, but we’ll do it. Achieving enlightenment is hopeless, but we’ll do it. Clarifying the mind, emptying the mind — impossible. We’ll do it. Just like the Four Vows say: “Sentient beings are numberless, I vow to save them.” How in the world are we going to do that, if they’re numberless? “Desires are inexhaustible, I vow to put an end to them. The dharmas are boundless, I vow to master them. The Buddha Way is unattainable, I vow to attain it.” Utterly hopeless. Yet we’re doing it."

 

http://mettarefuge.wordpress.com/2011/05/06/the-bodhisattva-vow-the-whole-thing-is-hopeless-but-well-do-it/

Edited February 19, 2012 by Informer

[Informer]

As in referring to the past tense, when I was at the "I AM" phase of insight.

 

Yeah dude, no . Not even close.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Informer