Chuang Tzu Chapter 6, Section G

[Marblehead]

Yan Hui asked Zhongni, saying, 'When the mother of Meng-sun Cai died, in all his wailing for her he did not shed a tear; in the core of his heart he felt no distress; during all the mourning rites, he exhibited no sorrow. Without these three things, he (was considered to have) discharged his mourning well; is it that in the state of Lu one who has not the reality may yet get the reputation of having it? I think the matter very strange.' Zhongni said, 'That Meng-sun carried out (his views) to the utmost. He was advanced in knowledge; but (in this case) it was not possible for him to appear to be negligent (in his ceremonial observances)', but he succeeded in being really so to himself. Meng-sun does not know either what purposes life serves, or what death serves; he does not know which should be first sought, and which last. If he is to be transformed into something else, he will simply await the transformation which he does not yet know. This is all he does. And moreover, when one is about to undergo his change, how does he know that it has not taken place? And when he is not about to undergo his change, how does he know that it has taken place? Take the case of me and you: are we in a dream from which we have not begun to awake? Moreover, Meng-sun presented in his body the appearance of being agitated, but in his mind he was conscious of no loss. The death was to him like the issuing from one's dwelling at dawn, and no (more terrible) reality. He was more awake than others were. When they wailed, he also wailed, having in himself the reason why he did so. And we all have our individuality which makes us what we are as compared together; but how do we know that we determine in any case correctly that individuality? Moreover you dream that you are a bird, and seem to be soaring to the sky; or that you are a fish, and seem to be diving in the deep. But you do not know whether we that are now speaking are awake or in a dream. It is not the meeting with what is pleasurable that produces the smile; it is not the smile suddenly produced that produces the arrangement (of the person). When one rests in what has been arranged, and puts away all thought of the transformation, he is in unity with the mysterious Heaven.'

[konchog uma]

Taoist Tales and Parables: Wandering on the Way

Victor Mair

 

 

Yen Hui inquired of Confucius, saying, "When Mengsun Ts'ai's

mother died, he cried without tears, his heart felt no distress, and

during the period of mourning he felt no sorrow. Although

lacking these three qualities, he was held to be the best mourner

in the state of Lu. Can one really attain a name without the

substance? I find this to be very strange."

 

"The clansman Mengsun was so thorough," said Confucius,

"that he had advanced beyond knowledge. Although he may have

wished to simplify mourning, but wasn't able to do so fully, still

there is that which he did simplify. Mengsun didn't know why he

lived and didn't know why he would die. He didn't know which

came first, life or death, and which came last. You see, he just

went along with the transformation of things, awaiting the

unknown transformation that was in store for him . Moreover, as

we are about to undergo transformation, how do we know that

we aren't already transformed? As we are about to cease transfor-

mation, how do we know that we have already transformed?

Perhaps you and I are in a dream from which we have not yet

awakened. He, however, had a vulnerable physical body but no

damage to his mind, a patched-together lodge but no expendi-

ture of his essence. Mengsun was singularly awakened. When

others cried, he cried too. That's why he behaved himself as he

did.

"Moreover, people identify each other as 'I,' but how do we

know that what we call 'I' may not really be 'I'? You may dream

that you are a bird and streak across the sky, that you are a fish

and descend to the depths. We cannot determine whether we

who are speaking now are awake or dreaming. We may be so

suddenly delighted that we don't have a chance to smile; we may

break into a smile before we have a chance to arrange ourselves.

Repose in what has been arranged for you and leave transforma-

tion behind, then you will be able to enter the unity of vast

heaven.

[konchog uma]

that one doesn't do much for me. I think its one of the only ones that just doesn't strike me as profound. Probably the first so far.

[Marblehead]

that one doesn't do much for me. I think its one of the only ones that just doesn't strike me as profound. Probably the first so far.

 

Oh darn! Would you like me to rewrite it to make it more appealing?

[ChiDragon]

Original Classic Text

原文】

颜回问仲尼曰：“孟孙才①，其母死，哭泣无涕②，中心不戚③，居丧不哀。无是三者④，以善处丧蓋鲁国⑤。固有无其实而得其名者乎⑥？回壹怪之⑦。”

仲尼曰：“夫孟孙氏尽之矣，进于知矣⑧。唯简之而不得，夫已有所简矣⑨。孟孙氏不知所以生，不知所以死；不知就先⑩，不知就后；若化为物(11)，以待其所不知之化已乎！且方将化，恶知不化哉？方将不化，恶知已化哉？吾特与汝，其梦未始觉者邪！且彼有骇形而无损心(12)，有旦宅而无情死(13)。孟孙氏特觉，人哭亦哭，是自其所以乃(14)。且也相与吾之耳矣，庸讵知吾所谓吾之乎？且汝梦为鸟而厉乎天(15)，梦为鱼而没于渊。不识今之言者，其觉者乎，其梦者乎？造适不及笑(16)，献笑不及排(17)，安排而去化(18)，乃入于寥天一(19)。”

 

Glossary

【注释】

①孟孙才：人名，复姓孟孙。

②涕：泪水。

③中心：心中。戚：悲痛。

④三者：指上述“哭泣不涕”、“中心不戚”、“居丧不哀”的三种表现。

⑤蓋：覆。

⑥固：竟，难道。

⑦壹：实在，确实。

⑧进：胜，超过。

⑨夫：这里代指孟孙才。

⑩就：趋近，追求。先：这里实指“生”，与下句“后”字实指“死”相应。

(11)若：顺。“若化”即顺应自然变化。

(12)骇形：指人死之后形体必有惊人的改变。心：精神，“损心”指情绪悲哀损伤心神。

(13)旦：日新，朝夕改变的意思。宅：这里喻指精神的寓所，即人的躯体。情死：真实的死亡。

(14) 乃：通作“尔”，如此的意思。

(15)厉：通作“戾”，至、往的意思，这里实指鸟的飞翔。

(16)造：达到。适：快意。

(17)献：发。一说“献”通作“戏”，“献笑”亦即戏笑。排：排解，消泄。

(18)安排：安于自然的推移。去化：忘却死亡的变化。

(19)寥：寂寥，虚空。

 

Modern Interpretation

【译文】

颜回请教孔子说：“孟孙才这个人，他的母亲死了，哭泣时没有一滴眼泪，心中不觉悲伤，居丧时也不哀痛。这三个方面没有任何悲哀的表现，可是却因善于处理丧事而名扬鲁国。难道真会有无其实而有其名的情况吗？颜回实在觉得奇怪。”孔子说：“孟孙才处理丧事的作法确实是尽善尽美了，大大超过了懂得丧葬礼仪的人。人们总希望从简治丧却不能办到，而孟孙才已经做到从简办理丧事了。孟孙才不过问人因为什么而生，也不去探寻人因为什么而死；不知道趋赴生，也不知道靠拢死；他顺应自然的变化而成为他应该变成的物类，以期待那些自己所不知晓的变化！况且即将出现变化，怎么知道不变化呢？即将不再发生变化，又怎么知道已经有了变化呢！只有我和你呀，才是做梦似的没有一点儿觉醒的人呢！那些死去了的人惊扰了自身形骸却无损于他们的精神，犹如精神的寓所朝夕改变却并不是精神的真正死亡。唯独孟孙才觉醒，人们哭他也跟着哭，这就是他如此居丧的原因。况且人们交往总借助形骸而称述自我，又怎么知道我所称述的躯体一定就是我呢？而且你梦中变成鸟便振翅直飞蓝天，你梦中变成鱼便摇尾潜入深渊。不知道今天我们说话的人，算是醒悟的人呢，还是做梦的人呢？心境快适却来不及笑出声音，表露快意发出笑声却来不及排解和消泄，安于自然的推移而且忘却死亡的变化，于是就进入到寂寥虚空的自然而浑然成为一体。”

Edited February 13, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Modern Interpretation

Yan Hui asked Zhongni(Confucius): "This guy Meng Sun Chai, his mother died, cried without a drop of tear; shows no grief in his heart, he was not sad at the funeral neither. In this three areas, he did not express any sorrow, but he was good at the funeral arrangements and well-known throughout the State of Lu. Perhaps that there was a situation with no such fact but only his name was being fictitious...??? Yan Hui really felt that was strange.

 

Confucius said: "Meng Sun Chai's method in handling the funeral arrangements was really perfect, it was way exceeded those who know how the make the funeral arrangements. People always hoped to arrange a funeral in a simple manner but they cannot have it accomplished but Meng Sun Chai can.

 

Meng Sun Chai won't ask people what they are living for; also he'd never bothered to find out what people die for. He doesn't know how to run toward life, and also he doesn't know how to approach death. He follows the natural process of change then changed into something which what he suppose to be. Then, he waits for those unexpected changes to appear.

 

Even tough there was a change apparently, then, how do I know it was not changing...??? Although there was no change, then, how do I that the change had been taken place already...!!! However, only you and I are those who were dreaming without knowing the state of awaken.

 

Those who were dead had their bodies ruined but their souls were not damaged. It seems like that the dwell place of the soul was changing but the soul was not really dead. Only Meng Sun Chai was awaken, when people cry, then he cries with them too, that was the reason why he guard the tombs for his ancestors.

 

Although during a conversation, I borrowed my physical body and address myself as 'I', then how do I know that the body I am addressing was really mine...???

 

Furthermore, in your dreams, you had turned into a bird and spreading the wings soared into the blue skies. In addition, in another dream, you had turned into a fish and submerged deep into the water.

 

I don't know in our conversation today, it was spoken by somebody who was awake or by somebody who was dreaming.

 

I has this blissful feeling within my heart but the sound of my laughter hesitated to come out. To show my joyfulness with the laughter but not quick enough for my disposal and drainage. Peacefully, I followed the natural movements and had forgotten the change about death. Hence, I have entered the tranquil and vacuous naturalness to become integrated completely as one.

Edited February 13, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Again, nice and thanks for your efforts.

 

BTW

 

I think this is about as close as we can get to where Taoist Philosophy would have any commonality with the Buddhist concept of reincarnation. Also, to the consideration of what the "I" is.

[konchog uma]

Oh darn! Would you like me to rewrite it to make it more appealing?

 

yeah put some sex and explosions in it!! hahahah

 

for the kids

[konchog uma]

i take my comment back, its profound. It just didn't seep into my thick head all at once. No need for explosions and sex marblehead. Unless you were gonna do that anyway, then don't let me stop you.

[ChiDragon]

BTW

 

I think this is about as close as we can get to where Taoist Philosophy would have any commonality with the Buddhist concept of reincarnation. Also, to the consideration of what the "I" is.

 

In regarding to reincarnation

The Taoist religion philosophy does not believe in reincarnation. They believed in that the soul leaves the body soared to heaven, after death, and become an immortal.

 

The Buddhist believes that the soul leaves the body after death and goes to another body of a newborn. The body of the newborn can be an animal, insect or human. It depends on the behavior of the original life of the dead. If the dead was a bad person when alive, the soul may have gone into the body of an animal as punishment. This is what karma was all about in the beliefs of the Chinese Buddhism anyway.

[Rara]

Again, nice and thanks for your efforts.

 

BTW

 

I think this is about as close as we can get to where Taoist Philosophy would have any commonality with the Buddhist concept of reincarnation. Also, to the consideration of what the "I" is.

 

Though the Taoist seems to give less of a shit...

 

Loved this chapter. Was hard digesting...I think I'm tired. But I found great amusement in what I saw as Confucious basically saying "I'm not so good and want to be a Taoist sooooo bad" haha

[Marblehead]

i take my comment back, its profound. It just didn't seep into my thick head all at once. No need for explosions and sex marblehead. Unless you were gonna do that anyway, then don't let me stop you.

Well, I used to be involved in both of those things so I still know how it done.

[Marblehead]

In regarding to reincarnation

 

Trying to keep me properly alighned, are you?

[ChiDragon]

Trying to keep me properly alighned, are you?

 

It took sometime, did it......???

[Stosh]

Meng-sun was too preoccupied with the afterlife and was living a sham.

The logic of the fault of it was that he could not know what would come after..and so was wasting the life he had -in numbness to himelf as a human being , attending but the facade of mourning ..he was missing out on the here and now, sacrificing the present. The story doesn't seem to indicate any certainty about the afterlife or future by this author.

Edited November 30, 2013 by Stosh